My Struggles with belief in inspiration of EGW

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I grew up SDA and was thoroughly indocrinated in SDA beliefs/culture from a baby through college. As an adult I have struggled with what I was taught, that "spirit of prophecy" means EGW and nothing else. I struggle with the concept that truth can start out as error. It started when I learned of her original interpretation of "the Great Disappointment" in 1844 as the "Closed Door" doctrine (that the door had been closed and no one could claim Christ's atonement for any sins after 1844). Later, it was denied by church leaders that she ever believed or taught "Closed Door" but evidence strong that she indeed did proffer "Closed Door" doctrine. Later her interruption was revised to "Investigative Judgment." If she was teaching error about 1844 as her first inspired doctrine, can I be comfortable with anything else she wrote/taught?

Maybe my seeds of doubt started much earlier when my 3rd grade teacher taught us that dinosaurs never existed on earth (whether this was SDA belief at the time or my teacher was misinformed, I do not know). Imagine my shock when my academy biology teacher had an actual dinosaur bone on display which he dug up himself in a summer Wyoming dig. This was my first experience with the reality that some of what I had been taught was false or untrue.

Later I struggled with the doctrine that at the end of time, the saints must be perfect through sanctification because they could no longer receive forgivenesss (end of Intestigative Judgment). The whole concept of Sanctification, that we could become perfect here on earth, seemed tenuous at best. No human has ever been transformed from sinful nature to sinless perfection. Until we are transformed at the "twinkling of an eye" will our sinful propensity become perfection as our Savior is.

More and more doubts crept in when I learned that "health message" was nothing new or unique for her time. In fact, Josph Smith had given "The Word of Wisdom" to the Mormons 30 years before EGW received "the health message".

Then the reality of "The White Lie" and plagiarism involved in her "inspired writings." Many things she taught (especially scientific) have proven to be wrong. So how can I believe she is a true prophet when she has had falsehood in fact and error in doctrinal teachings?

Without EGW, the three angels messages have no meaning. Without EGW, the "mark of the beast" remains a mystery. Without EGW, the SDA Church has no basis for many SDA doctrines/teaching. Without belief in EGW, I cannot be a member of SDA Church.
 
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BobRyan

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I grew up SDA and was thoroughly indocrinated in SDA beliefs/culture from a baby through college. As an adult I have struggled with what I was taught, that "spirit of prophecy" means EGW and nothing else.

step 1 -- accept what the Bible teaches -- then we can take your views on Ellen White more seriously and who knows your objections to her writing might be more Bible based etc. So it would be a win-win for you.

Based on your Ten Commandment and Sabbath Commandment thread - you appear to struggle even more with accepting the Bible - than you do with accepting Ellen White.

Get the Bible details right - as the first step it will give you a much more solid position for this topic.

In my own experience - I often find that ex-SDAs tend to be among the most uninformed people when it comes to basic understanding of actual Bible details.
 
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SDA's have always been "quilters of scripture." Pick a scripture here and another there and sew them together to prove a doctrine. But few even realize the discontinuity and contextual differences of that style of doctrinal proof.

Just like a poster on question of Sabbath and 10 commandments in Deuteronomy 5. Creation is not mentioned at all in entire context. Yet he writes, "the text says God freed them so they have all the more reason to honor their Creator."

Text doesn't say that. God didn't just create children of Israel. He created Adam & Eve, the parents of all mankind. God even had a covenant with Ishmaelites but they were never given the 10 commandments along with that covenant. In Exodus 34, the Ten Commandments are specifically identified as part of God's covenant with Israelites in God's discussion with Moses. Part of that covenant is how God will help Israelites defeat people of Canaan. So does God's covenant with Israel in Exodus 34 apply to Christians? I think not or we would be fighting for control of Palastine.
 
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BobRyan

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Later I struggled with the doctrine that at the end of time, the saints must be perfect through sanctification because they could no longer receive forgivenesss (end of Intestigative Judgment). .

I assume that 1 John 2:1 and Rev 15:8 and Daniel 7 are not familiar to you then.
 
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I assume that 1 John 2:1 and Rev 15:8 and Daniel 7 are not familiar to you then.

The whole doctrine of Sanctification as taught by SDAs is a quilt based on a couple scriptures, totally ignoring most of what is written in NT by Paul and other Apostles. We are saved by Grace except once we are sanctified we have no need for Grace because we are perfect.
 
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BobRyan

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The whole doctrine of Sanctification as taught by SDAs is a quilt based on a couple scriptures,

As I said - reading 1 John 2:1, Rev 15:8, then Rev 16 and Daniel 7 -- the entire chapter. Bible doctrine is not proved or disproved by simply "counting texts" and claiming that if only 2 or 3 chapters make the case then "it is not enough" or "it is disproven" that is not even remotely exegesis of a chapter or sola-scriptura proof or disproof via "text counting".

The Bible must be taken more seriously than that.


. We are saved by Grace -- justified by faith from the very start. But that saved walk in Christ is in the very Romans 6 "freedom from slavery to sinning" that Paul claims it is. IF anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father - but there is no 1 Cor 10 statement that "you must sin" - rather 1 Cor 10 says that based on the faithfulness of God - you have no right at all to make such a claim.

In fact in Romans 8:4-11 Paul says it is only the wicked that can say that they are so depraved that they "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they".

once we are sanctified we have no need for Grace because we are perfect.

That is merely "Creative writing" it is not an SDA position on anything.
 
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BobRyan

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More and more doubts crept in when I learned that "health message" was nothing new or unique for her time. In fact, Josph Smith had given "The Word of Wisdom" to the Mormons 30 years before EGW received "the health message".
.

There are only 5 "blue zones" on planet Earth and Ellen White's health message has resulted in one of them -- in Loma Linda.. Nothing of the sort can be said of Joseph Smith.

As for Smith -
": no alcoholic drinks, no smoking or chewing of tobacco, and no "hot drinks" — believed to refer specifically to tea and coffee. "Wholesome herbs," along with fruits and grains, are specifically recommended. Meat is to be used "sparingly."

Which is only a "half step" toward Ellen White's views in favor of vegan diet, and strong views about clean vs unclean meat, sleep, exercise, fresh air. Hot and cold water benefits, the use of the olive to heal stomach problems etc. You are comparing a mountain to a mole hill.
 
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News to me. Veganism didn't exist in EGW's day. I was raised lacto-ova vegetarian, the norm for SDA Church back then. Was surprised when my sister mentioned that her son and wife were raising her grandson vegan. Why? Because that is the newest SDA view on diet. Poor Jonathan (age 10) looks like a person from concentration camp with very thin legs and ribs showing. Perhaps this not the typical vegan SDA but I was shocked. He eats only raw fruits and vegetables (no grain or beans/protein, nothing cooked). He is cachectic from lack of protein, very little muscle mass.

I do not understand what "blue zone" means (certainly not democrats) . Mormons actually live longer and have less cancer than SDA. Perhaps it is the result of emphasis on family and life of service to others.

I am aware of some of the more fanatical SDA factions like Weimar. My mother took my dad up there with the supposed idea that fat-free diet and water treatments would reverse his heart disease and cure his diabetes. Much of this water treatment ideas are not accepted by most physicians or AMA.

I recently read a Journal article from LLU Dept of public health. They investigated whether it was eating eggs or meat that caused diabetes. Most scientists believe diabetes is part of metabolic syndrome which has a strong genetic component and includes hypertension, hyperlipidemia, truncal obesity with body mass index the largest risk for diabetes. Article so unscientific because everyone knows diabetes takes years to develop. Yet LLU researchers only compared egg eaters to meat eaters over a few months. Not sure what they were wanting to prove.
 
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BobRyan

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News to me. Veganism didn't exist in EGW's day.

Read "more".

Ellen White affirms the Bible fact that the diet of Adam was vegan "fruits nuts vegetables" - and that this is ideal for humans today.

I was raised lacto-ova vegetarian, the norm for SDA Church back then

I was raised meat-eating SDA the norm for many SDAs in my area - but changed to vegetarian and am "informed" about Ellen White's statement on the diet of mankind in Eden.
 
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SDA's have always been "quilters of scripture." Pick a scripture here and another there and sew them together to prove a doctrine. But few even realize the discontinuity and contextual differences of that style of doctrinal proof.
Actually that is a very JEWISH approach to scripture. BUT - the "quilted" scriptures need a "common thread." :)

Even our Lord did that with the "great Commandment" and the one "like it:"

Mark 12:28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”​

In the Hebrew both of these passages have a common word: V'ahavta; and you shall love ...,
 
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I grew up SDA and was thoroughly indocrinated in SDA beliefs/culture from a baby through college. As an adult I have struggled with what I was taught, that "spirit of prophecy" means EGW and nothing else. I struggle with the concept that truth can start out as error. It started when I learned of her original interpretation of "the Great Disappointment" in 1844 as the "Closed Door" doctrine (that the door had been closed and no one could claim Christ's atonement for any sins after 1844). Later, it was denied by church leaders that she ever believed or taught "Closed Door" but evidence strong that she indeed did proffer "Closed Door" doctrine. Later her interruption was revised to "Investigative Judgment." If she was teaching error about 1844 as her first inspired doctrine, can I be comfortable with anything else she wrote/taught?

Maybe my seeds of doubt started much earlier when my 3rd grade teacher taught us that dinosaurs never existed on earth (whether this was SDA belief at the time or my teacher was misinformed, I do not know). ...

Without EGW, the three angels messages have no meaning. Without EGW, the "mark of the beast" remains a mystery. Without EGW, the SDA Church has no basis for many SDA doctrines/teaching. Without belief in EGW, I cannot be a member of SDA Church.

1. you appear to be confused about a great many details
2. have you considered reading the Bible and learning what Seventh-day Adventists believe from scripture as a starting point? you know - the basics??
 
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BobRyan

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SDA's have always been "quilters of scripture." Pick a scripture here and another there and sew them together to prove a doctrine. .

Have you come to the point that you are willing to study the Bible and to understand how to use context - and to apply good sound principles of exegesis.

Is this even of interest for you at this point?
 
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mmksparbud

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I grew up SDA and was thoroughly indocrinated in SDA beliefs/culture from a baby through college. As an adult I have struggled with what I was taught, that "spirit of prophecy" means EGW and nothing else. I struggle with the concept that truth can start out as error. It started when I learned of her original interpretation of "the Great Disappointment" in 1844 as the "Closed Door" doctrine (that the door had been closed and no one could claim Christ's atonement for any sins after 1844). Later, it was denied by church leaders that she ever believed or taught "Closed Door" but evidence strong that she indeed did proffer "Closed Door" doctrine. Later her interruption was revised to "Investigative Judgment." If she was teaching error about 1844 as her first inspired doctrine, can I be comfortable with anything else she wrote/taught?

Maybe my seeds of doubt started much earlier when my 3rd grade teacher taught us that dinosaurs never existed on earth (whether this was SDA belief at the time or my teacher was misinformed, I do not know). Imagine my shock when my academy biology teacher had an actual dinosaur bone on display which he dug up himself in a summer Wyoming dig. This was my first experience with the reality that some of what I had been taught was false or untrue.

Later I struggled with the doctrine that at the end of time, the saints must be perfect through sanctification because they could no longer receive forgivenesss (end of Intestigative Judgment). The whole concept of Sanctification, that we could become perfect here on earth, seemed tenuous at best. No human has ever been transformed from sinful nature to sinless perfection. Until we are transformed at the "twinkling of an eye" will our sinful propensity become perfection as our Savior is.

More and more doubts crept in when I learned that "health message" was nothing new or unique for her time. In fact, Josph Smith had given "The Word of Wisdom" to the Mormons 30 years before EGW received "the health message".

Then the reality of "The White Lie" and plagiarism involved in her "inspired writings." Many things she taught (especially scientific) have proven to be wrong. So how can I believe she is a true prophet when she has had falsehood in fact and error in doctrinal teachings?

Without EGW, the three angels messages have no meaning. Without EGW, the "mark of the beast" remains a mystery. Without EGW, the SDA Church has no basis for many SDA doctrines/teaching. Without belief in EGW, I cannot be a member of SDA Church.

Ok--I understand. I left the church for over 25 years. I think at times she is pushed to the exclusion of what the bible says--they do not contradict each other though. I came back over 30 years ago. I will tell you one thing--if you get rid of EGW--nothing about the bible doctrines change. They are biblically based. I read all her books myself as a teenager--I was simply a voracious reader not because I was interested! The problem sometimes lies with teachers and ministers telling us what she said instead of us reading it for ourselves. My step-mom had her read leather edition, whish I'd kept those.
The notion that our doctrines are based on her writings is not true. She did not create them They were founded on the first believers, which came out of several churches, getting together and reading the bible. Her visions only confirmed what they had found. The Sabbath is totally biblical, so is the mark of the beast--her writings are not a part of deciphering that, the bible only is what decides that. The only thing that might change, is the health message, And not even that as it has been established time after time that SDA's live not only longer but healthier lives because of their diet.
She was found not guilty of plagiarism--didn't anyone ever tell you that? According to the bible--there comes a time when Jesus will be done with His High Priest role and He will pronounce "it is done." He then is done with that part of His role. At that time there is no more time left for anyone.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev_8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

I don't know why anyone would teach there were no dinosaurs--even the bible talks about behemoth and leviathan. I am 68, I was never once told that. But then there are many Christians, and you will find them on this website, that believe in a flat earth.
I came back to the SDA church not because of EGW, but because I could find no other denomination that follows what the bible says more closely. Then I went back and reread her stuff. I do believe she was a prophet of God. But I do not use her as the bases for my believes--I use the bible. The 2 have agreed. You will have to make your own decision. I have had no doubts about my coming back.
 
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mmksparbud

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News to me. Veganism didn't exist in EGW's day. I was raised lacto-ova vegetarian, the norm for SDA Church back then. Was surprised when my sister mentioned that her son and wife were raising her grandson vegan. Why? Because that is the newest SDA view on diet. Poor Jonathan (age 10) looks like a person from concentration camp with very thin legs and ribs showing. Perhaps this not the typical vegan SDA but I was shocked. He eats only raw fruits and vegetables (no grain or beans/protein, nothing cooked). He is cachectic from lack of protein, very little muscle mass.

I do not understand what "blue zone" means (certainly not democrats) . Mormons actually live longer and have less cancer than SDA. Perhaps it is the result of emphasis on family and life of service to others.

I am aware of some of the more fanatical SDA factions like Weimar. My mother took my dad up there with the supposed idea that fat-free diet and water treatments would reverse his heart disease and cure his diabetes. Much of this water treatment ideas are not accepted by most physicians or AMA.

I recently read a Journal article from LLU Dept of public health. They investigated whether it was eating eggs or meat that caused diabetes. Most scientists believe diabetes is part of metabolic syndrome which has a strong genetic component and includes hypertension, hyperlipidemia, truncal obesity with body mass index the largest risk for diabetes. Article so unscientific because everyone knows diabetes takes years to develop. Yet LLU researchers only compared egg eaters to meat eaters over a few months. Not sure what they were wanting to prove.

The word vegan is from 1944 and comes from England when the Vegan Society was started. However, doing without animal products of any kind has been espoused even by the ancient Greeks. That there are idiots who do not bother to research what they are doing and make up their own rules is pretty obvious. I've known vegans that have ben one for longer than I have been alive and they were very healthy. I've known, personally, many Weimar "graduates" who had fantastic results and reversed their diabetes and heart problems and lost tons of weight safely. I'd go myself, but can't afford it! I had colon cancer 2 years go---When I left the church I left the health message--I was married to a non SDA and though he was ok with eating the clean meats, we were not vegetarian. I doubt I'd have had the cancer if I had been vegetarian. We were also both cheese-aholics. He died in April, he was also an alcoholic.
I am now trying to be vegetarian and have cut my dairy consumption by 75% or more. I also have obesity and diabetes and high blood pressure! I feel much better now that I made these changes and my labs are getting better.
There are more vegetarians and vegans outside the church than there are church members.
 
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