My stance on abortion

[HoneyBee]

When I was young, I was pro-life. I couldn't understand why anyone would want to just kill their baby for any reason. Then I became pro choice when I heard what the other side had to say. Things stayed this way for a long time until I started looking into Catholicism. When I started looking at the Catholic way of looking at things, everything started to make sense, and now I think I'm pro life again... even if someone is conceived under awful circumstances, that doesn't give anyone the right to terminate their lives. I know this is a hot button issue but it's something that feels very important to me right now and I feel like I need to tell the world about why abortion is wrong. I feel like I need to do something activist-like. I haven't felt this fired up by a social issue in awhile and it's great!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Scripture says that murderers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Therefore there are some tragic and rude shocks awaiting some Pro-Choice professing Christians when they arrive at the Judgement.

 

[Haipule]

I personally am pro choice. However, using abortion as a form of birth control is just plain stupid!

My thing is that if my wife for life was pregnant and the doctor told us that the birth would be very risky for the life of the wife who is the wife of my life then, sorry but--see ya junior!

Junior would probably hate me by the time he is 16 anyway but, my wife is till death do us part. I just don't want that to happen while we still have the time to enjoy each other. Yet, it's her body, her life and her choice.

My wife and I have never had kids nor, did we ever want to. So, I am my wife's only child and she spoils me rotten! She is my little girl and I spoil her rotten too!

We don't pay for college so, drive nice cars and travel the world and live here on Maui.

We do have a cat. Talk about spoiled!

 

[Haipule]

The Scripture says that murderers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Therefore there are some tragic and rude shocks awaiting some Pro-Choice professing Christians when they arrive at the Judgement.

Yeah, I'm sure judgment day will be hell for King David who, while married to two wifes, raped a woman, who was married, and got her pregnant, tried to deceive her husband, which didn't work, then had her husband killed. And God caused, or allowed, the death of that child.

Yeah, I'm sure the "man after God's own heart" that wrote Psalm 23 who killed his 10's of thousands is gonna have hell to pay that day!

 

[SolomonVII]

When I was young, I was pro-life. I couldn't understand why anyone would want to just kill their baby for any reason. Then I became pro choice when I heard what the other side had to say. Things stayed this way for a long time until I started looking into Catholicism. When I started looking at the Catholic way of looking at things, everything started to make sense, and now I think I'm pro life again... even if someone is conceived under awful circumstances, that doesn't give anyone the right to terminate their lives. I know this is a hot button issue but it's something that feels very important to me right now and I feel like I need to tell the world about why abortion is wrong. I feel like I need to do something activist-like. I haven't felt this fired up by a social issue in awhile and it's great!

When we base our reasoning on feelings alone, virtually any crime can be justified. We can all really feel for the crisis that many girls and women are faced with when it comes to an unplanned pregnancy, or even an planned pregnancy that is thrown on its head when situations change. Pro-life does not mean that anyone has no feelings for the crisis that a pregnancy can wreak on the lives of those who are ill-prepared for bringing new life into the world.
It takes courage to not be ruled by our feelings of empathy for those who suffer. Objectively, the unborn are as human as anyone else, and are unique individual from the moment of conception.
It is a faith statement that avers that every human live is sacred and of infinite worth, and that value is inherent to a human life, regardless of what they have to offer to society at any point in time.
It is not a blind faith to believe that human life is sacred. Considering the alternative. To presume that that human life is instrumentally valuable in terms of its market value and the worth that the laws of supply and demand deem it to have at any given point, is to enter into a hell of our own making.

To love life passionately is to be passionate about the life of the least among us. The unborn need our love more than anything at this moment in time.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yeah, I'm sure judgment day will be hell for King David who, while married to two wifes, raped a woman, who was married, and got her pregnant, tried to deceive her husband, which didn't work, then had her husband killed. And God caused, or allowed, the death of that child.

Yeah, I'm sure the "man after God's own heart" that wrote Psalm 23 who killed his 10's of thousands is gonna have hell to pay that day!

A bit of a difference between David and those who are murdering babies in the womb. If you read the whole passage about David's sin with Bathsheba you will see that he repented, and suffered God's judgment through the death of the baby. Psalm 91 is his prayer of repentance. Pro-choice folks are not repenting, otherwise they would stop doing it and speak out against it.

Furthermore, John warned true believers to keep right away from those professing Christianity, who are not living according to God's standards and are deliberately walking in the deeds of the flesh as listed in Galatians 5. He says that true believers should not even eat with such people. Pro-choice "Christians" should be challenged to repent or be excluded from Christian fellowship of any kind until they repent and change their attitude toward unborn babies.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I personally am pro choice. However, using abortion as a form of birth control is just plain stupid!

My thing is that if my wife for life was pregnant and the doctor told us that the birth would be very risky for the life of the wife who is the wife of my life then, sorry but--see ya junior!

Junior would probably hate me by the time he is 16 anyway but, my wife is till death do us part. I just don't want that to happen while we still have the time to enjoy each other. Yet, it's her body, her life and her choice.

My wife and I have never had kids nor, did we ever want to. So, I am my wife's only child and she spoils me rotten! She is my little girl and I spoil her rotten too!

We don't pay for college so, drive nice cars and travel the world and live here on Maui.

We do have a cat. Talk about spoiled!

You seem to be speaking of a "what if" situation, and not one that is actually happening to you. You won't know what your choice will be if or when you are confronted with having to make the choice. Words are cheap while there is not the actual experience.

 

[Rodan6]

When I was young, I was pro-life. I couldn't understand why anyone would want to just kill their baby for any reason. Then I became pro choice when I heard what the other side had to say. Things stayed this way for a long time until I started looking into Catholicism. When I started looking at the Catholic way of looking at things, everything started to make sense, and now I think I'm pro life again... even if someone is conceived under awful circumstances, that doesn't give anyone the right to terminate their lives. I know this is a hot button issue but it's something that feels very important to me right now and I feel like I need to tell the world about why abortion is wrong. I feel like I need to do something activist-like. I haven't felt this fired up by a social issue in awhile and it's great!

The modern political issue faced to day is more about whether or not mothers live or die and less about the child. Most are in agreement that abortion after a certain point is wrong. The political subject at hand is whether or not the mother and the doctor should have a say in an abortion. Should abortion be allowed to save the life of the mother? What if the both the mother and child are going to die if the law forces the pregnancy to full term? When we change the law, it's important to recognize unintended consequences. Current law permits necessary discretion for the parents, the medical professionals and if necessary--a judge. Take away the power for people to decide cases individually, and the consequences can be worse than the problem.

 

[SolomonVII]

Yeah, I'm sure judgment day will be hell for King David who, while married to two wifes, raped a woman, who was married, and got her pregnant, tried to deceive her husband, which didn't work, then had her husband killed. And God caused, or allowed, the death of that child.

Yeah, I'm sure the "man after God's own heart" that wrote Psalm 23 who killed his 10's of thousands is gonna have hell to pay that day!

The forgiveness of God is infinite.
David was at the top of the world at the time of his greatest sin. To wake up and to recognize that his vile actions were as evil as those of any of the other people portrayed in the Bible, to see himself as driven by animal lusts, and willing to murder and betray friends and colleagues, to see himself as a monster, was a horrific experience. It is the kind of action that drove Judas to hang himself. God is more merciful to us that we are to ourselves.
David considered himself to be basically a good person and a man of God. His experience was that he was God's chosen king. To discover yourself as the monster is one of the most horrifying experiences that anyone can go through in this life. Nevertheless, with repentance God forgives anything, even as the consequences of David's act echoed on down through the centuries in the ruination of Israel that culminated in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. David repented and God forgave, and even inthe adulterous seed of David, a child was born who saved the world.

The darkness that was in David is in all of us. It is far better for potential parents to become aware of their capacity evil before they devour their children, rather than after.
God is merciful and wipes away every tear. And yet the consequences of our evil remains. There are upwards of a million children every year in America alone who will not be born as a consequence of society deeming them to be an inconvenience that is not worth the bother.

 

[Haipule]

You seem to be speaking of a "what if" situation, and not one that is actually happening to you. You won't know what your choice will be if or when you are confronted with having to make the choice. Words are cheap while there is not the actual experience.

I am a follower of the Great Shepherd Jesus and He is completely nuts! I would NEVER have made the decisions He made! Yet, if I haired out, and didn't follow, I would never have lived such a grand life!

I learned a long time ago not to compete with the Alpha and the Omega with my own plans.

Lets get real: I will NEVER now the consequences of any decision I make no matter how "good" or "biblical" I think the decision is! He knows every consequence of His decisions for my life beginning to end. Admittedly, it's a rollercoaster ride!

Better to follow and win than compete and lose big!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am a follower of the Great Shepherd Jesus and He is completely nuts! I would NEVER have made the decisions He made! Yet, if I haired out, and didn't follow, I would never have lived such a grand life!

I learned a long time ago not to compete with the Alpha and the Omega with my own plans.

Lets get real: I will NEVER now the consequences of any decision I make no matter how "good" or "biblical" I think the decision is! He knows every consequence of His decisions for my life beginning to end. Admittedly, it's a rollercoaster ride!

Better to follow and win than compete and lose big!

My wife was 42 years old when we had our daughter. She is now 26 years old. There was the possibility that at over 40 there was a greater chance of having a downs syndrome child. My wife had the test at the appropriate time of the pregnancy and there was a couple of days of uncertainty. I honestly didn't know what we would have done if the child was downs syndrome. In my heart, I don't think I could have consented to an abortion, and because my wife is Catholic, I don't think she would have been happy about it either. So if the test turn out positive, I think we would have had to say that this was our challenge in life. To be honest, we were greatly relieved to know that our child was normal. At her birth, we had our GP and a specialist right there to deliver the baby. We had the best of care. Now we have a feisty daughter who made me go to Jenny Craig to lose weight, and then to join a Crossfit gym to get fit. She got four bronze medals at the Oceania powerlifting championships in Singapore in December of last year.

So, we came very close to having to make a choice. I tell you, it was not an easy time for either of us!

 

[Haipule]

The forgiveness of God is infinite.
David was at the top of the world at the time of his greatest sin. To wake up and to recognize that his vile actions were as evil as those of any of the other people portrayed in the Bible, to see himself as driven by animal lusts, and willing to murder and betray friends and colleagues, to see himself as a monster, was a horrific experience. It is the kind of action that drove Judas to hang himself. God is more merciful to us that we are to ourselves.
David considered himself to be basically a good person and a man of God. His experience was that he was God's chosen king. To discover yourself as the monster is one of the most horrifying experiences that anyone can go through in this life. Nevertheless, with repentance God forgives anything, even as the consequences of David's act echoed on down through the centuries in the ruination of Israel that culminated in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. David repented and God forgave, and even inthe adulterous seed of David, a child was born who saved the world.

The darkness that was in David is in all of us. It is far better for potential parents to become aware of their capacity evil before they devour their children, rather than after.
God is merciful and wipes away every tear. And yet the consequences of our evil remains. There are upwards of a million children every year in America alone who will not be born as a consequence of society deeming them to be an inconvenience that is not worth the bother.

Don't get me wrong, I like your post.

But please, where does the idea of "repentance" come from? The word in the Greek is meta(with, like)noia(mind). How is the Scriptural idea of likemindedness among Christians somehow, "repentance"? Jesus told us to be likeminded not "repent" "for the kingdom is at hand".

If metanoia means repentance, then what does pronoia mean?

 

[Haipule]

My wife was 42 years old when we had our daughter. She is now 26 years old. There was the possibility that at over 40 there was a greater chance of having a downs syndrome child. My wife had the test at the appropriate time of the pregnancy and there was a couple of days of uncertainty. I honestly didn't know what we would have done if the child was downs syndrome. In my heart, I don't think I could have consented to an abortion, and because my wife is Catholic, I don't think she would have been happy about it either. So if the test turn out positive, I think we would have had to say that this was our challenge in life. To be honest, we were greatly relieved to know that our child was normal. At her birth, we had our GP and a specialist right there to deliver the baby. We had the best of care. Now we have a feisty daughter who made me go to Jenny Craig to lose weight, and then to join a Crossfit gym to get fit. She got four bronze medals at the Oceania powerlifting championships in Singapore in December of last year.

So, we came very close to having to make a choice. I tell you, it was not an easy time for either of us!

That's an awesome story! Is there a God or what?

That reminds me of Tebow who's parents(strong believers) where told that the wife would probably not survive the birth. She did and he became the quarterback of the national championship Florida Gators.

 

[Haipule]

My wife was 42 years old when we had our daughter. She is now 26 years old. There was the possibility that at over 40 there was a greater chance of having a downs syndrome child. My wife had the test at the appropriate time of the pregnancy and there was a couple of days of uncertainty. I honestly didn't know what we would have done if the child was downs syndrome. In my heart, I don't think I could have consented to an abortion, and because my wife is Catholic, I don't think she would have been happy about it either. So if the test turn out positive, I think we would have had to say that this was our challenge in life. To be honest, we were greatly relieved to know that our child was normal. At her birth, we had our GP and a specialist right there to deliver the baby. We had the best of care. Now we have a feisty daughter who made me go to Jenny Craig to lose weight, and then to join a Crossfit gym to get fit. She got four bronze medals at the Oceania powerlifting championships in Singapore in December of last year.

So, we came very close to having to make a choice. I tell you, it was not an easy time for either of us!

A note about Downs Kids:

I once work as a licensed optician for Wal-Mart here on Maui. It was Christmas time and they asked me to demonstrate electric guitars and amps as no one buys glasses for Christmas.

I played for years and I was rockin' and people mostly ignored me. When I looked over to my department, there was a group of Downs Kids borrowing our chairs and they were all smiling, boppin' and dancin' to my tunes. I was charmed!

 

[SolomonVII]

Don't get me wrong, I like your post.

But please, where does the idea of "repentance" come from? The word in the Greek is meta(with, like)noia(mind). How is the Scriptural idea of likemindedness among Christians somehow, "repentance"? Jesus told us to be likeminded not "repent" "for the kingdom is at hand".

If metanoia means repentance, then what does pronoia mean?

I think a beter translaton of metanoia is not "with" or "like" minded, but "beyond". minded. Repentance is a change of consciousness to see the world from a perspective beyond ordinary human consciousness. It is a spiritual conversion of one's point of view, from an earthly point of view to a heavenly point of view even.
Metanoia, literally translated, is a very positive, uplifting word. The good news of the Gospel focuses us on the hope and the joy that comes from having ones consciousness transformed into the kind of consciounsenss designed for the Kingdom of Heaven. However, implicit in the transformation of consciousness that brings us to the 'there' of the kingdom of heaven is the starting point of the 'here' which is the life and consciousness of the sinner. Blindness to even the fact that one is a sinner is the consciousness of someone who does not even recognize that he is a sinner, such as David, such as the multitudes of moderns engage in the monstrosity that is abortion. To have ones eyes opened is to therefore to first become self-aware of the darkness that rules our world and rules our life. Regret, remorse and sorrow therefore become the starting point to a metanoia, and that leads to 'repentance' being the preferred translation in many bibles over 'metanoia'. A transformation of conscious and a the spiritual transformation of mind that metanoia translates as includes the Biblical ashes and sackcloth and a recognition of the horrific depths of our sinfulness.

Many of us modern, and probably this is doubly true for women, could never even conceive of themselves as taking a lady bug and squishing it between their index finger and their thumb. And yet, with acceptance of abortion, this is exactly what they are doing with a human life. To have ones consciousness transformed to a heavenly consciousness is to see this reality as it is, and this will be a truly horrifying experience to experiences ourselves as the monsters that we really are.

 

[Sketcher]

Abortion as birth control is murder. Abortion that is literally necessary to save the life of the mother is not. If two people are going to die unless one of them dies, save the life you can. That's pro-life. Refusing to isn't, it results in one more death than was needed.

If we can write good legislation that protects the unborn, and protects pregnant women allowing for the medical freedom necessary to ensure their well-being, and that doesn't incentivize slanderous charges of rape to gain access to abortions, I'd be all for that.

 

[Rodan6]

Abortion as birth control is murder. Abortion that is literally necessary to save the life of the mother is not. If two people are going to die unless one of them dies, save the life you can. That's pro-life. Refusing to isn't, it results in one more death than was needed.

If we can write good legislation that protects the unborn, and protects pregnant women allowing for the medical freedom necessary to ensure their well-being, and that doesn't incentivize slanderous charges of rape to gain access to abortions, I'd be all for that.

Your "pro-life" position seems closer to my "pro-choice" position. You, of course realize that the majority in the modern "pro-life" movement is all about "NO EXCEPTIONS". Most are not interested in your thoughtful exploration of different scenarios. Still, let's take your thoughts a little further. At what point should the law draw the line when it's "literally necessary to save the life of the mother"? When there is a 40% chance of her dying? 50%? 90%? 99%? Remember that as you craft your law, you will still be hampering the judgement of the parents and the medical professionals. The law WILL apply to every case and unintended consequences are a virtual certainty.

 

[SolomonVII]

Catholic teaching as far as I know advocates for medical procedures that save the life of the mother. Directly killing an innocent life to save the life of the mother is what is censured. Medical procedures that protect the mothers life that inadavertenly lead to the death of the child are understood to be sinless.

Abortion - Pro Life - Priests for Life Q&A on Abortion

What are we talking about here though? Maybe 0.5 percent of all cases that might be included in abortion statistics, even though they are not literally abortions?

 

[redleghunter]

Should abortion be allowed to save the life of the mother?

Always has. Even before the Roe decision in 1973 every state, even Texas the most conservative had exceptions for the life of the pregnant woman.

What if the both the mother and child are going to die if the law forces the pregnancy to full term?

The law can't force a doctor's triage.

When we change the law, it's important to recognize unintended consequences.

As in what exactly?

 

[redleghunter]

My wife had the test at the appropriate time of the pregnancy and there was a couple of days of uncertainty.

With our youngest (me 37 wife 36) the first sonogram showed a clubbed foot which is one of the indicators of Downs. They also so what they believed a spot on the brain which would later manifest as a learning disorder but did not know how significant. The OB recommended the amniocentesis to see what we were dealing with. Glad my wife asked the question of how dangerous the test could be for the baby.

There are risks associated with getting to 'know' what's going on. We did not want to risk our son's life and already knew no matter what we loved him. We didn't get the test but did get a second opinion at a University hospital. That second opinion was another sonogram where the OB there believed we had a healthy baby with a clubbed foot. Not to mention we had plenty of folks praying for our baby. He was born a very healthy weight and maxed out the birth awareness tests (Apgar test). He had a clubbed foot which he had surgically corrected and had one adjustment two years ago at age 11. He still goes through physical therapy from time to time as he plays competitive baseball. He had some speech delay and is dyslexic (diagnosed almost 3 years ago). He's now 13, strapping lad almost as tall as me and predicted to be above 6 feet. Big strong boy who now with me 50 and undergoing chemo is quite a help.