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Featured My simple proof that God's Will is not always performed

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by John Mullally, Aug 8, 2020.

  1. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    Fatalists (and some theologies) make arguments that X happened because it was God's Will - or Y did not happen because it was not God's will. But that is a poor argument.
    1. The vanilla statement "God's Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will because Jesus would not command us to pray something that is not God's Will. Notice that "be" indicates the present tense.
    2. God's Will is not being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. There is no poverty, sickness, or sin in Heaven.
    3. Therefore, some other factors are in play that are blocking God's Will from being done here on Earth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  2. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    "The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance is actually a completely different question. Often, the concept of divine sovereignty is oversimplified. We tend to assume that, if God is not directly, overtly, purposefully driving some event, then He is somehow not sovereign. The cartoon version of sovereignty depicts a God who must do anything that He can do, or else He is not truly sovereign. God has the ability to do anything, to take action and intervene in any situation, but He often chooses to act indirectly or to allow certain things for reasons of His own. His will is furthered in any case. God’s “sovereignty” means that He is absolute in authority and unrestricted in His supremacy. Everything that happens is, at the very least, the result of God’s permissive will. This holds true even if certain specific things are not what He would prefer. The right of God to allow mankind’s free choices is just as necessary for true sovereignty as His ability to enact His will, wherever and however He chooses."
    What does it mean that God is sovereign? | GotQuestions.org
     
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  3. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    I guess what you are saying is that you view this as an attack on "God's Sovereignty". Do you technically disagree with my statement? If so, please point out the flaw.
     
  4. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    No I do not see it as any kind of attack. I think you might be looking at things differently than the way someone educated in Theology would look at them. Do you disagree with what I posted?
     
  5. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God requires the cooperation of men in order for His will to be done. Eventually, His will shall come to pass - the purpose of God cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2). It can, however, be delayed. As is obvious right now.
     
  6. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    The phrase "God's will" is used with two different meanings. Something may happen according to God's plan, but be in breach of God's command.
     
  7. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    That would seem to mean that God is at the mercy of man to accomplish God's will. God may allow man to delay His will but that is entirely up to God.
     
  8. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    I agree more with Aussie Pete in that God needs man's cooperation. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of directives made to men in the Bible for a reason. Always keeping in mind what is written in the back pages of Revelations.
     
  9. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Man is at the mercy of God! God has chosen, in His infinite wisdom, to limit Himself to man's cooperation. This demonstrates God's infinite power, love and wisdom far more effectively than if He just forced mankind to obey.
     
  10. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    That is what happened when God hardened Pharaoh's heart on the Hebrews way to promised land.
     
  11. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    He doesn't NEED our co-operation; he could impose his will upon us and make it impossible for us to disobey.
    But he is love and doesn't do that. He allows us the privilege of working with, and serving, him.
     
  12. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    God seeks ... but leaves us the choice whether to believe in Him or not ... the choice comes from His sovereign love. Love can't be forced ... else it isn't love.

    Luke 19:10
    For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
     
  13. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Sometime about 2 decades or so ago I was looking up the verse about the leopard not changing his spots and I happened upon this passage.
    Some folks argue that "It is not God's will that any should perish" so that means all mankind will be saved no matter what because nothing man can do will cause God's will to not be done."
    .....But note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

    …..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear. . .

    14
    And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said "I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them."


     
  14. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    But he didn't destroy them, or not all of them.
    Jerusalem was destroyed, yes - but most of the people were taken into exile in Babylon. And though Jeremiah spoke the above words, he also said " 'for I know the plans I have for you', says the Lord, "plans to prosper and not harm you and to give you a future and a hope'."
    Jeremiah encouraged those who were in exile to believe that they would return one day - and the nation still exists today.
     
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    God's will was that all of Israel and all of Judah be unto Him as a belt is to a man but many refused so those He destroyed at Mt Sinai, in the wilderness etc.. God's will was not completely done.
    Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
     
  16. Rachel20

    Rachel20 Active Member

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  17. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    This is what Jesus told His disciples after the resurrection:

    Mathew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    How does Matthew 28:18 relate to Matthew 28:19? What is the therefore there for? It seems like He was passing authority to His disciples - so don't discount that.
     
  18. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    I agree with "It is not God's will that any should perish" - as it is a clear scripture. But not everything that is God's Will is being done as I stated in my opening.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I'm not discounting anything.
    What's that got to do with what I said?
     
  20. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    If Jesus has assigned his disciples to preach the Gospel under His authority (which is total), then you cannot say He does not need their co-operation. Why did Jesus pour over 3 years of His life on earth into the disciples?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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