My roommate is an atheist...

[CreativeChris]

Hi everybody

I was raised in a creationist family, but abandoned the literal interpretation of the Bible before high school.

I'm now a college student, who has an atheist roommate. We are in the same logics classes, and I'm finding myself not able to defend my faith. It's kind of a competition between us, trying to outsmart each other. I've always tried to be a rational person, and now it's eating me up that there seems to be a major part of my life that doesn't make any sense. Now that I try to remember back what I have been taught at church and at home, all the lessons are on the surface level, but the foundation, the evidence for the existence of God just isn't there. I always just took it for granted.

I also work as a security guard, so I have time to think about these things, but I can't read about it at work. I know there likely won't be any quick and easy answers, but I'll try to devote as much of my free time to this as I can.

I've tried praying, but I haven't found answers. Now I'm asking for your help: What are the most convincing arguments for the existence of God?
(It would be really cool if the argument was in a proper logical form, but really, any good argument or evidence is appreciated.)

 

[Strathos]

Believing in God isn't about empirical evidence, it's about faith.

 

[Winken]

Hi everybody

I was raised in a creationist family, but abandoned the literal interpretation of the Bible before high school.

I'm now a college student, who has an atheist roommate. We are in the same logics classes, and I'm finding myself not able to defend my faith. It's kind of a competition between us, trying to outsmart each other. I've always tried to be a rational person, and now it's eating me up that there seems to be a major part of my life that doesn't make any sense. Now that I try to remember back what I have been taught at church and at home, all the lessons are on the surface level, but the foundation, the evidence for the existence of God just isn't there. I always just took it for granted.

I also work as a security guard, so I have time to think about these things, but I can't read about it at work. I know there likely won't be any quick and easy answers, but I'll try to devote as much of my free time to this as I can.

I've tried praying, but I haven't found answers. Now I'm asking for your help: What are the most convincing arguments for the existence of God?
(It would be really cool if the argument was in a proper logical form, but really, any good argument or evidence is appreciated.)

Forget rationalizing. Spiritualize the conversation: John 3:16-17, John 14:6, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:1, and then invite him to confess Jesus as Savior, Romans 10:8-13. The simple Truth is that until he does that, he falls in the category of 2 Timothy 2:16 and 1 Corinthians 2:14-16. These references are not open to debate.

[edited to show 1 Corinthians 2:14-16]

 

[Basil the Great]

I read a book decades ago that was written by a philosopher. He laid out all the pros and cons for the existence of God. His final conclusion was that there was slightly more evidence for God's existence, than against it. He did not base his conclusion on the fact that God had to create the Universe, for I guess he felt it was possible that it could have been created by chance, even if unlikely. No, the final weight for God, in his mind, is that the Universe 's existence has been sustained for billions of years, that it has not suddenly ceased to exist, that someone or something has kept it going.

Welcome to the forums by the way and God bless you.

 

[Basil the Great]

I have not read the book for over 40 years, so I cannot remember the fine points of his position.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi everybody

I was raised in a creationist family, but abandoned the literal interpretation of the Bible before high school.

I'm now a college student, who has an atheist roommate. We are in the same logics classes, and I'm finding myself not able to defend my faith. It's kind of a competition between us, trying to outsmart each other. I've always tried to be a rational person, and now it's eating me up that there seems to be a major part of my life that doesn't make any sense. Now that I try to remember back what I have been taught at church and at home, all the lessons are on the surface level, but the foundation, the evidence for the existence of God just isn't there. I always just took it for granted.

I also work as a security guard, so I have time to think about these things, but I can't read about it at work. I know there likely won't be any quick and easy answers, but I'll try to devote as much of my free time to this as I can.

I've tried praying, but I haven't found answers. Now I'm asking for your help: What are the most convincing arguments for the existence of God?
(It would be really cool if the argument was in a proper logical form, but really, any good argument or evidence is appreciated.)

I think that instead of trying to outsmart your friend, focus on learning about your own faith, and seeking questions to what you believe.

Regardless of what your roommate does or doesn't believe, instead work out your own faith--because if you are going to talk religion with others, you should have a solid foundation yourself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Creech]

I think its important to realize logic and reason are important, but by definition they are constrained by human ability to reason and understand, and are not ultimate paths to eternal truth themselves.

 

[JesusIsLord_]

Have you heard about William Lane Craig? Great apologist. ReasonableFaithOrg

drcraigvideos

John Ankerberg is cool too, he has some videos with William Lane Craig John Ankerberg Show

When you don't know the answer to something, just say "sorry, I don't know about that, I'll come with the answer x day"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi everybody

I was raised in a creationist family, but abandoned the literal interpretation of the Bible before high school.

I'm now a college student, who has an atheist roommate. We are in the same logics classes, and I'm finding myself not able to defend my faith. It's kind of a competition between us, trying to outsmart each other. I've always tried to be a rational person, and now it's eating me up that there seems to be a major part of my life that doesn't make any sense. Now that I try to remember back what I have been taught at church and at home, all the lessons are on the surface level, but the foundation, the evidence for the existence of God just isn't there. I always just took it for granted.

I also work as a security guard, so I have time to think about these things, but I can't read about it at work. I know there likely won't be any quick and easy answers, but I'll try to devote as much of my free time to this as I can.

I've tried praying, but I haven't found answers. Now I'm asking for your help: What are the most convincing arguments for the existence of God?
(It would be really cool if the argument was in a proper logical form, but really, any good argument or evidence is appreciated.)

Hello Chris,

That situation you're in can definitely be a bothersome one. However, I don't think you should be overly concerned about all of this, especially since as far as the Christian faith is concerned epistemological factors alone can dampen the extent to which human logic of any kind produces certainty toward any conclusion(s) about Jesus/God. So, whether a person is "convinced" or not is much more a matter of how any one of us contemplates the evidence than it is about valid and sound conclusions. And what may be a convincing argument for one person can often be shallow or hollow for another person.

What is probably more prudent and helpful is to hone in on whichever arguments your roommate has and work to deconstruct those arguments, piece by piece. At the same time, you should begin to expand your understanding of various other fields of study that can inform your Christian faith. Don't look to logic alone ... and don't try to "win" a debate with your roommate.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Heart2Soul]

Atheists in my experience can't be persuaded through Biblical principles of God's existence. It is best to take a humble approach and ask him why he is Atheist, when did he first realize he was an atheist, was there ever a time he did believe, does he have any church upbringing as a child, and so on....allow him to express his views without counterattacking and eventually he may end up tripping himself up on his claim to being Atheist. But to argue with him will only empower him especially if you are not well equipped with the knowledge of God's Word yourself. IMHO.

 

[Dave G.]

Until we come to certain realizations in faith for ourselves, both experientially and biblical truths, we can't possibly pass it on to others beyond what we know ourselves. In your case, You bailed out on this stuff decades ago and so are under equipped, time to dig that dusty bible out and start learning the truths it contains . Build up your own faith and beliefs so you know what you are talking about when you approach others or certainly at least know it's true. This should be a very good lesson for you, that an atheist leaves you in the dust, not that you would ever convince him of anything anyway but it leaves you feeling weak about your position..

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi everybody

I was raised in a creationist family, but abandoned the literal interpretation of the Bible before high school.

I'm now a college student, who has an atheist roommate. We are in the same logics classes, and I'm finding myself not able to defend my faith. It's kind of a competition between us, trying to outsmart each other. I've always tried to be a rational person, and now it's eating me up that there seems to be a major part of my life that doesn't make any sense. Now that I try to remember back what I have been taught at church and at home, all the lessons are on the surface level, but the foundation, the evidence for the existence of God just isn't there. I always just took it for granted.

I also work as a security guard, so I have time to think about these things, but I can't read about it at work. I know there likely won't be any quick and easy answers, but I'll try to devote as much of my free time to this as I can.

I've tried praying, but I haven't found answers. Now I'm asking for your help: What are the most convincing arguments for the existence of God?
(It would be really cool if the argument was in a proper logical form, but really, any good argument or evidence is appreciated.)

This is a good test for your faith - whether you are a genuine Christian or not. What your room mate might not disclose to you is that he will know that you are a professing Christian and he will be observing your conduct very closely. If you are a genuine believer, that will be evident to him. He may respond favourably to that, or he may react negatively. Conviction can happen both ways. The Pharisees in the time of Jesus were convicted by what Jesus did and said; some believed on him (positive) but others sought to kill Him (negative). Same conviction, different reactions.

You will not outsmart him by natural logic. It might be better to stop trying to defend God and your own faith, and just start conducting yourself as a believer. Stop seeing him as an atheistic adversary and see him as someone who needs Christ as Saviour. This is not to preach at him because he won't respond to lectures or Bible banging. But conducting yourself toward him with the fruit of the Spirit will be much more effective. Acts of kindness is a great tool. Being a true friend instead of an adversary is the way to go.

My brother has always resisted the gospel. He says that even when he walks by a church he feels angry. But he said to me recently, "You have been true to your Christian beliefs for over 40 years now and have never deviated from them. There must be something in it for you to believe in it for so long." It has not been what I have said during our discussions and debates about Christianity and churches, but it is the way I live and have conducted myself toward him that had that impact.

 

[CreativeChris]

Wow, this was surprising… basically what you seem to be saying is, stop being rational about it, the atheist has all the evidence and logic on his side? This is not helping with my struggle…

Maybe I was unclear in my first post. I like my room mate, we are pretty good friends. These our little debates are always in good spirit.

Forget rationalizing. Spiritualize the conversation: John 3:16-17, John 14:6, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:1, and then invite him to confess Jesus as Savior, Romans 10:8-13. The simple Truth is that until he does that, he falls in the category of 2 Timothy 2:16 and 1 Corinthians 2:14-16. These references are not open to debate.

That was my first approach. But we had already agreed that the Bible is not literal (the creation account, the flood), it has later additions (the end of Mark) and it contradicts with itself (the death of Judas). And apparently it's not even historically accurate (Herod was not the king when Quirinius started the cencus) and it has failed prophesies (Tyre still stands today, the old ruins have been found and Nebuchadnessar never conquered it). So why would a non-believer believe what it has to say, as there is no reliable way to tell which parts are accurate and which ones are not? Why should he believe Jesus rose from the dead? Should even I believe it?

Evidence? I'm afraid you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.
The alternative of creation "it all came out of nothing" makes no sense whatsoever to me...none. We see things created all the time by us but never once saw something come from nothing...never.

That's an obvious logical fallacy right there. Even if "it all came from nothing" was what physicist are actually proposing, our God creating it all would not be the only alternative. No-one can know what (if anything) caused the singularity our universe came from. Could have been the Christian God, could have been some other being, could have been a purely natural force (of which we don't know of yet), a coincidence or something I can't think of right now (or ever). How have you ruled all the other options out?

Because a billion Atheists say God is not there, and the Big bang/evolution started it all from nothing, does not make it true.

I think you should check your facts: there are more Christians believing in evolution and the big bang than atheists. If you had been taught evolution properly (not the strawman version I was taught as a kid), you would have to be really stubborn not to believe in it. I only know a fraction of it, but the evidence is still overwhelming.

Did you listen, and choose to go with your own understanding

I believe, God gave me this understanding, knowing very well I would use it the best I can. He will not send me to Hell for using it.

I will have to check Craig and the other guy when I have the time.

 

[Kenny'sID]

That's an obvious logical fallacy right there. Even if "it all came from nothing" was what physicist are actually proposing, our God creating it all would not be the only alternative. No-one can know what (if anything) caused the singularity our universe came from. Could have been the Christian God, could have been some other being, could have been a purely natural force (of which we don't know of yet), a coincidence or something I can't think of right now (or ever). How have you ruled all the other options out?

Nobody knows? Then how do you know it's a fallacy? Created is simply more logical than the alternative of nothing from something, however when we choose not to see logic because we want to believe what we want to believe, there really isn't a thing one can say to force it.

I think you should check your facts: there are more Christians believing in evolution and the big bang than atheists. If you had been taught evolution properly (not the strawman version I was taught as a kid), you would have to be really stubborn not to believe in it. I only know a fraction of it, but the evidence is still overwhelming.

I believe, God gave me this understanding, knowing very well I would use it the best I can. He will not send me to Hell for using it.
I will have to check Craig and the other guy when I have the time.

Are you saying even the Atheist who uses their God given understanding to not believe there is a God will not be sent to hell? Point being, not much of a defense at all. Like I said, you have leaned to your own understanding, and away from what the Bible clearly says, and you do like millions of others and say God would NEVER do that to me.. that's the thing about God, he does what he says he'll do.

Our choice on what he does to us.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wow, this was surprising… basically what you seem to be saying is, stop being rational about it, the atheist has all the evidence and logic on his side? This is not helping with my struggle…

...not all of us are saying that rationality and logic are all on the side of the atheists, Chris.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

...not all of us are saying that rationality and logic are all on the side of the atheists, Chris.

I have had some very spirited debates with my brother over the years, and it always was fun for me. I had to work very hard to better him and I never really did; but he didn't really beat me either. Our debates often ended in a stalemate. But these debates were never acrimonious. He respects me and I respect him. Regardless of our view of the world and religion, we are still brothers and we put our brotherhood first and our religious views second.

 

[BlackSabbath]

I don't think many people can really understand, it's something you either get or you don't...


I think some are more spiritually inclined while others are unable to really suspend belief in many things beyond practical knowledge. I think often times, I'm not sure what it is, but many have trouble believing in much more beyond this physical realm of existence, it is difficult for them to fathom or understand. What make of the tiny cells and nuclues of an atom? Science often can only really observe trends and patterns in the world, how certain mechanisms work, but it cannot really describe or explain the nature beyond those mechanisms. I suppose if they think they can understand all the tiny peaces of how everything works, they'll solve something I guess? Or perhaps the inner workings of reality are simply ours to re-arrange and change as we see fit, which in my opnion is hubris to the highest degree.

So I don't know what their problem is, many very scientific inclined people, they sometimes remind me of naked mole rats, in the dark digging away without knowing why, lol. (I guess like, the world is their oyster to dissect)

I mean, what is the nature of reality? What is life? Why are we here, what is all of this? And they feel they are beyond such trifling queries,

 

[Winken]

That was my first approach. But we had already agreed that the Bible is not literal (the creation account, the flood), it has later additions (the end of Mark) and it contradicts with itself (the death of Judas). And apparently it's not even historically accurate (Herod was not the king when Quirinius started the cencus) and it has failed prophesies (Tyre still stands today, the old ruins have been found and Nebuchadnessar never conquered it). So why would a non-believer believe what it has to say, as there is no reliable way to tell which parts are accurate and which ones are not? Why should he believe Jesus rose from the dead? Should even I believe it?

Please forget the rational. You are walking around in the quicksand of intellectualism. What if the creation account / flood are not literal? What if Herod was not the king? What if Tyre still stands today? The "parts" that are applicable to you concern the mission of Jesus, His Message, His Sacrifice, and your eternal salvation!! All else is useless prattle!!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Please forget the rational. You are walking around in the quicksand of intellectualism. What if the creation account / flood are not literal? What if Herod was not the king? What if Tyre still stands today? The "parts" that are applicable to you concern the mission of Jesus, His Message, His Sacrifice, and your eternal salvation!! All else is useless prattle!!

Why would the message/mission of Christs be meant as literal if those other things are not?

Bible says those thing are all a fact...no reason to see them as not literal. Why would God, who is not a God of confusion, lie to us/confuse things by saying they are true if they are not?

When one tells an Atheist fore instance, a chunk of the Bible cannot/may not, or who really knows if it can be taken literally, it's hardly going to instill faith in the word of God for them. Makes it all sound wishy washy. I'd have a tough time believing it myself.

Some things are clearly meant as literal and some things are clearly not, and at least those things are easily discerned as "literal".

Not just picking in you, Wink, it's just that many people find it so easy to say that about the bible (basically, maybe the bible is all true and maybe it's not) and it's very disturbing to me.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why would the message/mission of Christs be meant as literal if those other things are not?

Bible says those thing are all a fact...no reason to see them as not literal. Why would God, who is not a God of confusion, lie to us/confuse things by saying they are true if they are not?

When one tells an Atheist fore instance, a chunk of the Bible cannot/may not, or who really knows if it can be taken literally, it's hardly going to instill faith in the word of God for them. Makes it all sound wishy washy. I'd have a tough time believing it myself.

Some things are clearly meant as literal and some things are clearly not, and at least those things are easily discerned as "literal".

Not just picking in you, Wink, it's just that many people find it so easy to say that about the bible (basically, maybe the bible is all true and maybe it's not) and it's very disturbing to me.

My view is that if the Bible says it then it must be based on truth, because the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to write what they did. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, therefore the creation, Noah, Tower of Babel and all the other accounts have to be true, regardless of the lack of empirical evidence.

It is interesting that the traditional Mandarin Chinese picture language has been seen through research that many of the pictures represent Genesis events. After the Tower of Babel, the group who settled China became isolated from the rest of the world, so their language and culture remained pure over the thousands of years until relatively modern times. So, if Genesis is not true, then why it is reflected in the traditional Chinese language? Unlike other modern languages what evolved over time from the proto-versions, the traditional Mandarin language remained exactly the same since the Tower of Babel when it first came into being. The written version of the language was compiled early enough for the compilers to have the Genesis accounts fresh in their minds.

I don't know how to reconcile the Genesis account with carbon dating suggesting that the earth was millions of years old, had dinosaurs and human remains more than 20,000 years old, and I don't really care, because I would rather believe the Spirit of truth who inspired the writers of the Bible.