My Raisin Bread Challenge

[Tiberius]

And, of course, your refusal to answer questions stems from scientific discipline, right?

I'll make a deal with you: you don't consider me a poe, and I won't consider you scientifically disciplined -- how's that?

No. Sometimes I really do think you are a poe. And I understand science a whole lot better than you do.

Anyway, my question to you has two possible answers. yes or no.

If the answer is yes (the raisins bear traces of their time on the vine (even though they were created in raisin form, ex nihilo), then you have created something ex nihilo that indicates something that never happened. hence, you are a liar.

HOWEVER...

If the answer is NO (and the rasins bear absolutely no traces of the time they spent on the vine as grapes), then not only is it not raisin bread, but you have provided us with a way of telling if something has been created ex nihilo or not!

So which door do you want to pick, AV? Either way, your argument falls flat on its face.

 

[Jazer]

So which door do you want to pick, AV? Either way, your argument falls flat on its face.

He is not trying to argue with anyone. He is just trying to get people to think this through. I really do not think he cares what the actual conclusion is that people come to. Although most everyone does seem to come to a conclusion of their own.

 

[Tiberius]

My point is that he can't even come to a conclusion of his own without violating some premise he has accepted as true and refuses to give up.

 

[Split Rock]

What is the difference between raisin bread created ex nihilo with the raisins older than the bread, and raisin bread created ex nihilo with the raisins and the bread the same age?

OK. I don't remember how I answered this before, but since this was bumped for my benefit (mostly) I will answer again. There wouldn't necessarily be any obvious difference between the raisin bread created ex nihilo with the raisins older than the bread, and raisin bread created ex nihilo with the raisins and the bread the same age. That said, IF the raisins were created with the bread, they should have no signs of having been anything but raisins.

Now AVET, tell me how does this relate to the question I was addressing which led to you bumping this thread? As I recall, we were discussing the so-called embedded age of the earth, and whether the earth needed to have embedded age in order to be created "mature."

 

[AV1611VET]

OK. I don't remember how I answered this before, but since this was bumped for my benefit (mostly) I will answer again. There wouldn't necessarily be any obvious difference between the raisin bread created ex nihilo with the raisins older than the bread, and raisin bread created ex nihilo with the raisins and the bread the same age. That said, IF the raisins were created with the bread, they should have no signs of having been anything but raisins.

-- I apologize if you answered this before.

Now AVET, tell me how does this relate to the question I was addressing which led to you bumping this thread? As I recall, we were discussing the so-called embedded age of the earth, and whether the earth needed to have embedded age in order to be created "mature."

Just like raisin bread needs all its ingredients, and needs them at the right age, the universe needs all its 'raisins,' and needs them at the right age as well.

And just like raisin bread created ex nihilo or baked, you can't tell the difference; thus the 'baker' would have to leave documentation as to what he did.

 

[Tiberius]

And what would these "raisins" be, AV?

 

[sandwiches]

-- I apologize if you answered this before.

Just like raisin bread needs all its ingredients, and needs them at the right age, the universe needs all its 'raisins,' and needs them at the right age as well.

And just like raisin bread created ex nihilo or baked, you can't tell the difference; thus the 'baker' would have to leave documentation as to what he did.

So, bottom line: We have to take the baker at his word.

Well, if the baker's documentation said that he first put in the raisins into the batter and then later on he tells us that the raisins were put in last after baking the bread, among many other errors, incongruences, and contradictions, I'd have take his documentation with a healthy dash of Kosher salt.

 

[razeontherock]

I don't like salt on my raisins

 

[USincognito]

And what would these "raisins" be, AV?

I don't like salt on my raisins

Two words - nasal rubies.

 

[sandwiches]

I don't like salt on my raisins

Yea, but we're talking about raisin bread and cooks know raisin bread recipes include salt and I'd usually recommend Kosher salt.

 

[AV1611VET]

So, bottom line: We have to take the baker at his word.

You don't have to.

You can always scratch yourselves to death wondering which one's which.

 

[AV1611VET]

Two words - nasal rubies.

Ah, yes, Rocky's attempt at being me: 1

 

[AV1611VET]

Yea, but we're talking about raisin bread and cooks know raisin bread recipes include salt and I'd usually recommend Kosher salt.

Only atheists can yak raisin bread to death --

(Except maybe scientists.)

 

[JoeyArnold]

So, bottom line: We have to take the baker at his word.

It is sometimes better to trust the source of an issue regardless of perceived contradictions, etc.

 

[Tiberius]

Give an example.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Give an example.

Science once believed the earth was flat.

 

[Tiberius]

Science once believed the earth was flat.

And do we accept that this is false because we just trust the people who tell us, or can we go and investigate and see for ourselves?

 

[JoeyArnold]

And do we accept that this is false because we just trust the people who tell us, or can we go and investigate and see for ourselves?

We are now investigating the claims of Darwin.

 

[Jazer]

Yea, but we're talking about raisin bread and cooks know raisin bread recipes include salt and I'd usually recommend Kosher salt.

I am on a very low salt diet so I have to cook my own bread.
There is very little in the way of processed foods that I am allowed to eat.

 

[JoeyArnold]

I am on a very low salt diet.

Agreed. People usually consume an excess amount of salt.