My Premill, Postrib view

[RandyPNW]

Only for those theologically open-minded, I said to a particular Premillennial and Postribulational friend:
I have a view that is unlikely to find 100% agreement with everybody. However, I do agree with your Premill and antagonism towards Pretrib, if I understand you correctly? For your interest I'll briefly outline my views--again, you're not likely to agree with all of it. But we do agree on some very important points, such as our need to not look for an escape, but rather, to watch out for Antichristian deception. That is precisely what we're challenged to do in Scriptures!
My view is that temporal forms of God's Kingdom do appear on earth, such as when in the OT era Israel had a Davidic theocracy, of sorts. This was, as I say, a temporal form of God's Kingdom, and certainly not the eschatological Kingdom that Christ said was coming.
Even in the NT era, I do believe that Christian kingdoms also portray this temporal form of God's Kingdom. Again, this is *not* the eschatological Kingdom, which the OT Prophets said would bring final salvation to Israel.
I do believe Israel, as a nation, will be converted to Christianity. This is not 100% Christianity among individuals, but 100% national salvation from their enemies, and a complete conversion of the *State* to Christian standards.
On the other hand, this is not, I believe, to be partiality towards Israel by God, nor a restoration of legal forms that existed under the Law. Israel is given prominence in Scriptures because in the OT Israel was the only nation under covenant with God, and most information was addressed strictly to them. And prophecy made use of OT legal forms of worship not to establish that it will remain static and permanent in the final Kingdom, but only because at that time that form of worship was still in use.
So the coming eschatological Kingdom will see the fulfillment of all Christian nations, including Israel. And I don't see Israel being dominant among them, but only one of many. Nor do I accept any OT legal forms of worship in the coming Kingdom, whether for Israel or for any other nation.
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[Trusting in Him]

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matthew 6:34)

Things get revealed when God wants us to know. The details are Gods to reveal, or not to reveal. Why is it so important to know these things? God wants us to live for today. Sure, we live in times where lots of stuff is happening and we rightly want to know what God's word says about what happening in the times we live in, as these things happen.

As things happen we will understand and be able to judge rightly what to do!

 

[frank sears]

The pre-trib rapture is an incredibly dangerous doctrine because 95% of christians believe they are going to leave the earth at any moment in an invisible rapture. It is a deception by Satan!!! The Bible is clear, the Antichrist and the tribulation come before the rapture. Millions of christians will be blown away when the Antichrist and the tribulation appear, and Jesus did not rapture them. Jesus taught a post-trib rapture, Paul taught a post-trib rapture, John taught a post-trib rapture...no pre-trib rapture in the Bible.

 

[Trusting in Him]

You say that the bible is clear. Can you give us the bible references which you believe support what you are saying, particular where you say that paul taught a post-trib rapture and also that John taught a post-trib rature.

 

[Leaf473]

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matthew 6:34)

Things get revealed when God wants us to know. The details are Gods to reveal, or not to reveal. Why is it so important to know these things? God wants us to live for today. Sure, we live in times where lots of stuff is happening and we rightly want to know what God's word says about what happening in the times we live in, as these things happen.

As things happen we will understand and be able to judge rightly what to do!

I agree. I tend to lean towards pre-trib rapture myself,
but whatever happens,
that verse you quoted will still hold true.

 

[frank sears]

I can give the Bible scriptures that prove a post-trib rapture, but you will probably not believe it because the church has been deceived into ignoring what these scriptures actually say. First ,the idea that there is a rapture, and a second coming, is a lie, don't fall for that one. In Matt 24 Jesus described a post trib rapture of the church, in 2Thess 2 Paul said the rapture could not occur until after the revealing of the Antichrist. In Rev 6 John describes the tribulation(4 horsemen) followed by the heavens shaken and Christ return, after that the church is in Heaven having gone through the great tribulation. I asked God one time why christians read the Bible but do not see the post-trib rapture, He actually told me," they love compliance more than they love God's truth". The truth is there and obvious. To those who think Paul wrote of a pre-trib rapture, think again! Paul joined a post-trib believing church and he described the exact same return that Jesus gave the church.

 

[Trusting in Him]

I can give the Bible scriptures that prove a post-trib rapture, but you will probably not believe it because the church has been deceived into ignoring what these scriptures actually say. First ,the idea that there is a rapture, and a second coming, is a lie, don't fall for that one. In Matt 24 Jesus described a post trib rapture of the church, in 2Thess 2 Paul said the rapture could not occur until after the revealing of the Antichrist. In Rev 6 John describes the tribulation(4 horsemen) followed by the heavens shaken and Christ return, after that the church is in Heaven having gone through the great tribulation. I asked God one time why christians read the Bible but do not see the post-trib rapture, He actually told me," they love compliance more than they love God's truth". The truth is there and obvious. To those who think Paul wrote of a pre-trib rapture, think again! Paul joined a post-trib believing church and he described the exact same return that Jesus gave the church.

I'm not really sure that you can equate the revealing of the antichrist, with the start of the great tribulation. The revealing of the antichrist and the coming of the great tribulation are not the same thing. As far as I know the church will be there to see the revealing of the antichrist is fully accepted by both Pre-tib and Post-trib believers. I not sure that this arguement explains very much!

 

[Trusting in Him]

The pre-trib rapture is an incredibly dangerous doctrine because 95% of christians believe they are going to leave the earth at any moment in an invisible rapture. It is a deception by Satan!!! The Bible is clear, the Antichrist and the tribulation come before the rapture. Millions of christians will be blown away when the Antichrist and the tribulation appear, and Jesus did not rapture them. Jesus taught a post-trib rapture, Paul taught a post-trib rapture, John taught a post-trib rapture...no pre-trib rapture in the Bible.

I'm not really sure where this figure of 95% percent comes from,since there are plenty of supporters of both positions and proving one position vs the other still leads to cosiderable debate as to which side is right. I was hoping to hear a well reasoned agreement, which would challenge and inform the thinking regarding both postions.

 

[Timtofly]

I can give the Bible scriptures that prove a post-trib rapture, but you will probably not believe it because the church has been deceived into ignoring what these scriptures actually say. First ,the idea that there is a rapture, and a second coming, is a lie, don't fall for that one. In Matt 24 Jesus described a post trib rapture of the church, in 2Thess 2 Paul said the rapture could not occur until after the revealing of the Antichrist. In Rev 6 John describes the tribulation(4 horsemen) followed by the heavens shaken and Christ return, after that the church is in Heaven having gone through the great tribulation. I asked God one time why christians read the Bible but do not see the post-trib rapture, He actually told me," they love compliance more than they love God's truth". The truth is there and obvious. To those who think Paul wrote of a pre-trib rapture, think again! Paul joined a post-trib believing church and he described the exact same return that Jesus gave the church.

Well the rapture certainly was not prior to Pentecost, and the last 1992 years of great tribulation. It will be after the tribulation of those days.

The rapture and the Second Coming happens at the same time, the 5th and 6th Seal being opened.

 

[JulieB67]

As far as I know the church will be there to see the revealing of the antichrist is fully accepted by both Pre-tib and Post-trib believers

Pretrib believers do not believe that they will be here when antichrist is revealed.

Although it's very clear that our gathering back to Christ does not happen until he is revealed sitting on the throne proclaiming to be God. Paul can't make it any more clear as does Christ in the gospels stating he comes immediately "after" the tribulation of those days.

The problem with many pretrib rapture believers (I used to be one) is that they stop after 1st Thes 4:18 and don't read further into chapter 5 -the subject hasn't changed and there were no chapters in the manuscripts. If one reads the subject in it's entirety one would see that Paul calls the event in 4:17- the day of the Lord. He then writes in his second letter and states that that very day will not happen until the falling away (apostasy) and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

And of course there's going to be apostasy, many are waiting to be raptured away. Once they see Satan and co performing miracles (Paul states he's disguised as an angel of light) many will be taken in and believe he's the savior. That's the true deception and why a pretrib rapture belief is so dangerous. That's why the foolish virgins who were Christians, they are waiting for the bridgegroom, just like many are waiting on the rapture today didn't make it at that time. That's why Christ tells some to depart after they claim they cast out demons in his names and so on. Christ gives us the signs and seasons and states watch because you know not what hour he will come but if someone would have watched (for those signs, one being antichrist) he would not have suffered his house to have been broken up. He also states if someone says here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it not.

Here are some scriptures,

And remember in this chapter, the original subject is where the dead are, the orignal subject was not about a pretrib rapture, etc.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

It's the day of the Lord that comes like a thief in the night. Not a pretrib rapture. And we see in the next verse why,

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

The analogy being that people will be thinking peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ returns. A thief in the night comes when you're not expecting him. They're thinking peace and safety because they have been taken in by the fake peace and safety believing he is the savior and then bam, the true Christ returns.

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

Wonderfully is the Hebrew word 6381 pala, and one of those definitons is ......miracles, perform. Which we know from Revelation that's what it's all about, the deception through those miracles.

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

That's the peace Paul is talking about in verse 5:3.

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

So we see that he only comes as a thief to those that are not on watch for the signs and seasons that Christ and Paul, later John lay out.

And then if we read further into 2nd Thes 2, Paul goes back to the subject of our gathering back to Christ and he tells them to not even be confused by his first letter that the day of Christ is at hand -iminent. It's not.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"



II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."


II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

We aren't privy to that time of teaching, because we of course were not there, we only have his letters. But he taught them these things before in person and is reminding them. Which is why he states earlier, they know the signs and the seasons.

But his warning about deception mirrors Christ warnings exactly about the same subject.

And many will not heed their warnings and will continue to wait on a pretrib rapture...