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My Kidney Challenge II

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Kylie, Jul 5, 2022.

Should you be made to give up one of your kidneys in the scenario presented in the opening post?

  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  2. No

    14 vote(s)
    93.3%
  1. IceJad

    IceJad Regular Member

    +692
    Malaysia
    Lutheran
    Single
    Reductive in reasoning. People who don't want a baby should practice safe sex. Understand the bare basics of sex. And don't cry foul when accident happens. Be a responsible person and own up to the accident. It is after all the outcome of your actions.

    In fact my view on abortion has nothing to do with my faith just basic human decency. Don't punish someone else for what is your own actions.
     
  2. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +4,797
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    So is it your position that it's a person right from fertilization?
     
  3. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

    +3,693
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Some random thoughts as I've been watching this thread on and off.

    Those are pretty much the only exceptions I'd make as well - assault, danger to the mother, incest, that sort of thing.

    Otherwise, I lean towards going through with a pregnancy if at all possible. However, if it's the result of assault or incest, then I would completely understand not wanting to go through with the pregnancy.

    Ultimately, it's up to the one who's pregnant. Even if I met a person who had undergone abortions as just another form of birth control, I'm not going to condemn them. It's a personal choice, even if I personally don't find it ideal.

    And, from a faith-perspective, depending on one's soteriology, the aborted baby would be immediately transported to heaven since they didn't reach the Age of Accountability (though my personal cosmology differs from even that, but I won't go into it here other than to say that I don't believe the baby's soul is disadvantaged by the decision; besides, God knew what would take place in that womb beforehand so I think He's got the soul that would have worn that developing earth-suit covered in such cases).

    There's also my concern that the abortion process takes a toll on the mother's body. It can't be good for ya.

    Abortion isn't ideal, just as war isn't ideal, but, like war, it is a thing, and is sometimes seen as necessary, apparently.

    ("apPARENTly". Just noticed that unintended pun.)

    Anyway, I would prefer that abortion not be used as just another form of birth control if it can be helped. Again a personal decision though.

    -
     
  4. IceJad

    IceJad Regular Member

    +692
    Malaysia
    Lutheran
    Single
    A personal choice to a certain point, the fetus didn't get the option of choice unfortunately. Of course as being a rational person I wouldn't be confrontational if the other party isn't obnoxious to me about the choice. But my personal opinion about the person wouldn't change and would remain internal until asked to opine.

    My view is what I know not for certain, I would not speculate. The Lord will take care of things according to His will and I believe it will always be for the betterment of the aborted. Whatever the soteriological truth it maybe.

    All actions have their consequences and outcome. To me as the saying goes "you make your bed now lie on it". However whenever possible I'll always stand for the preservation of innocent life.
     
  5. IceJad

    IceJad Regular Member

    +692
    Malaysia
    Lutheran
    Single
    I care little, if at all, what a person thinks of his/her sexual rights and standing on reproduction are. My focus is always the outcome of exercising said rights and standings.

    Be as prude or hedonistic as one desires as long as it is consensual. With faithfully one or wildly many partners, know that your actions may produce a life. Safe or unsafe sex you decide the level of risk to take. Biological reality pays no heed to personal indignations and believes.

    Shall a life comes into being, you're responsible. And I have made clear on where I stand on abortion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2022
  6. Belk

    Belk Senior Member Supporter

    +11,146
    Agnostic
    Married
    Is it your opinion that having an abortion is irresponsible? I notice many equating "responsibility" with "choices I approve of" so just wished to clarify.
     
  7. Estrid

    Estrid Well-Known Member

    +2,165
    Hong Kong
    Skeptic
    In Relationship
    I believe it was the American, Admiral Richover
    who said, "If you are not responsible,
    you are irresponsible".

    ETA. Not intended as humour
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2022
  8. IceJad

    IceJad Regular Member

    +692
    Malaysia
    Lutheran
    Single
    If by responsible you mean terminating a life before it has enough sentience to reject then I have nothing to say.

    To me the baby didn't asked to be conceived. It is by the direct actions of the male and female "participants" that made it possible. Therefore it is their responsibility to take care of the new life. As long as both mother and child are healthy and the act of conception is consensual I see no other reason to terminate.

    Don't go the tired old route of accident and unwanted pregnancy. No human alive above the age of 10 is unaware of the fact that sex makes babies. Moreover in modern society especially in the west safe sex is easier to practice than say 2 decades ago. The chances are very slim to conceive without deliberately ignoring biological facts and safe guards.

    Also don't go the route of poverty as a reason. Poor doesn't mean stupid. Also a condom is not very expensive. In fact it is some of the cheapest items in a drug store or convenience store.

    What I want to say is aborting a life is irresponsible. An easy way out for people who are irresponsible in having sex. Punishing new life for what will never be their fault.
     
  9. Belk

    Belk Senior Member Supporter

    +11,146
    Agnostic
    Married
    Thank you for your explanation. One follow up question if I may? In your last sentence you state "Punishing new life...". Would you explain how you see it as a punishment? I have a hard time understanding this concept since I can't figure out how you can punish something that has no self knowledge.
     
  10. IceJad

    IceJad Regular Member

    +692
    Malaysia
    Lutheran
    Single
    By denying the life a future to prosper and grow. No knowledge of self now doesn't mean it will not develop one when given the opportunity. In fact all of humans will develop a sense of self even those with mental retardation (they just don't have the same level of cognitive ability). It is this potential that we are protecting.

    Unlike other cells in our bodies that will never gain sentience, the fetus will. Eventually the fetus will grow into a biologically independent life.

    We can't judge a life's value solely by self-awareness or consciousness. A comatose patient no longer has self-awareness or consciousness. Same goes for patients who undergo anesthesia. They still have value because all these people have the potential to regain their self-awareness or consciousness.

    It is a punishment because we prevent the life from growing. And the reason for this denial is nothing short of because I don't want you even if it was me who cause you to come into being.
     
  11. Estrid

    Estrid Well-Known Member

    +2,165
    Hong Kong
    Skeptic
    In Relationship
    Check dictionary
     
  12. Belk

    Belk Senior Member Supporter

    +11,146
    Agnostic
    Married
    Perhaps this will help. Are you using punish in the sense of a penalty used as a corrective action or punish as in to inflict harm?
     
  13. IceJad

    IceJad Regular Member

    +692
    Malaysia
    Lutheran
    Single
    Given the context I'm very confident in your ability to figure it out.
     
  14. Belk

    Belk Senior Member Supporter

    +11,146
    Agnostic
    Married
    Or you could just tell me, but very well. Thank you for your time in answering my questions.
     
  15. IceJad

    IceJad Regular Member

    +692
    Malaysia
    Lutheran
    Single
    I'm quite sure you have your view on abortion. I'm interested to know since the train of questions you ask seem to veer closely with perception of personal rights and the perception of right to life. If you would like to share maybe you can start another thread. This kidney challenge has been blown off course a fair bit.
     
  16. Belk

    Belk Senior Member Supporter

    +11,146
    Agnostic
    Married
    I find abortion to be fine through the first trimester. The idea that a single cell at conception is a "person" I find to be risible. As the pregnancy progresses I become less and less OK with the idea of abortion but it is still a difficult topic. I do believe that everyone has bodily autonomy but you have to weigh that against the life of a developing human.

    I am a strong advocate for changing the conditions that women choose abortion rather then banning it outright. Abortion is strongly correlated with certain economic and healthcare factors that I feel everyone would benefit from improving.
     
  17. Estrid

    Estrid Well-Known Member

    +2,165
    Hong Kong
    Skeptic
    In Relationship
    People are not an "it".
    But to employ your usage, "it" is in this case definitely not a
    crocodile.
     
  18. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +4,797
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    Begging the question. You are saying that a person is not an it, yet it hasn't been shown that a fertilized clump of cells is a person.
     
  19. Estrid

    Estrid Well-Known Member

    +2,165
    Hong Kong
    Skeptic
    In Relationship
    Nonsense.
     
  20. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

    +4,797
    Australia
    Atheist
    Married
    What, exactly, is the nonsense?

    The claim that it's a begging the question fallacy? I clearly explained how it was.

    The fact that a clump of cells is not a person? Please show me the scientific evidence that a fertilized egg is a person.
     
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