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My God My God

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by CherubRam, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    My God My God



    Psalm 22:1
    My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?



    Matthew 27:46
    And about the ninth hour Yahshua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Foot note: Matthew 27:46 Some manuscripts Eloi, Eloi



    John 20:17
    Yahshua said, “Do not cling to me, for I have yet to ascend to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    Mark 15:34
    And at the ninth hour Yahshua cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?




    Additional comments.

    Hebrews 10:7
    Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’”

    Revelation 3:2
    Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.

    Revelation 3:12
    The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
     
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  2. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St Francis Supporter

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    When the incarate word of God said “my God, my God”, was He referring to Himself or God the Father?
     
  3. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I will leave that up to you to figure out.
     
  4. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St Francis Supporter

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    Well it’s obviously the Father being Jesus wouldn’t need to ask Himself that question. The real quandary is how does that verse fit within a Oneness hermeneutics?
     
  5. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Father and Son are one in unity.
     
  6. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St Francis Supporter

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    But not a triunity?
     
  7. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe God is a Trinity. Trinitarianism was established by the Catholics.
     
  8. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St Francis Supporter

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    What about the Holy Spirit?
     
  9. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    For Christ to die spiritually would mean He sinned and Christ did not sin.

    Matthew 27:46 is often used as a “proof text” scripture to show: God left Christ while on the cross because Christ had become this sinful person or something like that, but that is not what Matt. 27:46 is supporting and is actually supporting just the opposite.

    Matt: 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

    First off: to interpret any scripture you have to keep 5 thing in mind: context, context, context, context and context.

    Remember this was not written directly to us and we are reading other people’s mail.

    1. “Eli, Eli” in Matthew is Hebrew for dad, dad or father, father while Mark used the Aramaic “Elio, Elio” translated the same father, father. This could have been a copying error, Jesus said it twice using different languages or Mark might have been more familiar with the Aramaic (both are very similar), also Matt. was thought to be written in Hebrew to begin with, the main thing is it was not said in Greek or Latin.

    2. Why did Jesus use his last precious breaths to make this short statement?

    3. Who was this said for or to? We always like to think it was being said only directly to us and for us, but that is never the case, so who? If you say God then Jesus is wasting his breath, since God has forsaken him (if that is what really has happened). If we say: one of the thieves, what question or comment is this addressing that would help them belief in Him? If we say one of the Maries or John, they might think Christ is praising them for being better than God Himself since they have “forsaken Him”, so is that what He is saying? If we say gentiles or Roman soldiers, they would not understand Hebrew or Aramaic, so it could not be for them. There were mockers that past by and even asked questions but seemed to just walk on. So who else was there?

    4. If you go back to every time Jesus was asked a sincere question or comment, you will find Jesus gave a sincere answer that would help that person or persons (not always accepted well). So are there sincere questions be asked of Christ will on the cross he will have to address? Jesus does provide answers to sincere comments and questions, so could “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” be addressing a sincere question?

    5. Matt. 27: In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.
    That seems to be a sincere but mocking question, so how best to address such a question? Would using scripture these priests, teachers and elders would know like the back of their hand be a good way to address these questions and shut them up, give them goosebumps and make them think?

    6. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Is the first line in psalms 22 and the Psalms is something all Jews would have memorized especially the spiritual leaders. But why did Jesus not just say: “Look at Psalms 22 for your answer” (at this time the psalms were not numbered so you just quoted the first line to direct the Jew to the whole Psalm).

    7. Psalms 22 is a diatribe (a moral debate over a question between two parties (God and David in Psalms 22) which all good Jewish students and teachers would recognize, which means there is a diatribe quest and strong support for the wrong conclusion to the answer always given first (before the question, right after the question or before and right after the question).

    8. Why did Jesus direct these spiritual Jewish leaders to Psalm 22 for their answer? Look what is says: Psalms 22: 7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. 8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”

    That is exactly what they have been doing and saying to Christ on the cross. Look some more:14

    I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax;

    it has melted within me.15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,

    and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death…. 18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.

    Would that not be what they are seeing?

    9. The correct answer to the diatribe question comes at the end (as in all diatribe) Psalms 22: 24. For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.



    The answer is God has not forsaken the sufferer and is with him, just as God was with Christ while he was on the cross.



    It is hard for us to appreciate the teaching style of a diatribe used in a Psalm without reading the 70 or so individual Psalms lament diatribes with lots of discussion and understanding among our peers. As has been shown good Jewish men at this time would have studied the Psalms to the point of having them all memorized and it only took the first verse to bring to memory the entire Psalm, so Jesus is not taking one verse out of context but bringing to mine the entire Psalm, but to whom and why?

    As others have pointed out this whole Psalm is not showing God lift any man at any time, but is with us at all times including being with Christ.



    Why would Jesus want the Pharisees and other religious leaders to think about Psalms 22 while looking at Him on the cross:



    Christ would cry out to God. Psalm 22:1a Matthew 27:46

    Christ would be forsaken by God at His crucifixion. Psalm 22:1b Mark 15:34

    Christ would pray without ceasing before His death. Psalm 22:2 Matthew 26:38-39

    Christ would be despised and rejected by His own. Psalm 22:6 Luke 23:21-23

    Christ would be made a mockery. Psalm 22:7 Matthew 27:39

    Unbelievers would say to Christ, "He trusted in God, let Him now deliver Him." Psalm 22:8 Matthew 27:41-43

    Christ would know His Father from childhood. Psalm 22:9 Luke 2:40

    Christ would be called by God while in the womb. Psalm 22:10 Luke 1:30-33

    Christ would be abandoned by His disciples. Psalm 22:11 Mark 14:50

    Christ would be encompassed by evil spirits. Psalm 22:12-13 Colossians 2:15

    Christ's body would emit blood & water. Psalm 22:14a John 19:34

    Christ would be crucified. Psalm 22:14b Matthew 27:35

    Christ would thirst while dying. Psalm 22:15a John 19:28

    Christ would thirst just prior to His death. Psalm 22:15b John 19:30

    Christ would be observed by Gentiles at His crucifixion. Psalm 22:16a Luke 23:36

    Christ would be observed by Jews at His crucifixion. Psalm 22:16b Matthew 27:41-43

    Both Christ's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16c Matthew 27:38

    Christ's bones would not be broken. Psalm 22:17a John 19:32-33

    Christ would be viewed by many during His crucifixion. Psalm 22:17b Luke 23:35

    Christ's garments would be parted among the soldiers. Psalm 22:18a John 19:23-24

    The soldiers would cast lots for Christ's clothes. Psalm 22:18b John 19:23-24

    Christ's atonement would enable believers to receive salvation. Psalm 22:22 Hebrews 2:10-12
     
  10. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.
     
  11. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    For me, Holy Spirit is a Title for our Father, Yahwah.
    First Council of Constantinople (381 AD), the Nicene Creed would be expanded, known as Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, by saying that the Holy Spirit is worshiped and glorified together with the Father and the Son (συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον), suggesting that he was also consubstantial with them:
     
  12. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Your thinking is very worldly.
     
  13. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    There is no need to be so heavenly that I am no earthly good.:D
     
  14. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

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    Tell me your belief and I will tell you who is your leader.
    A lot of modern unitarians are based on Reformation rationalists.
     
  15. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I am a Judaic Christian. I reject Mysticism, Gnosticism, and Paganism.
     
  16. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

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    Mysticism was part of the Old Covenant and it is part of the New One.
     
  17. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    I don't know about that...that you say....
    ...seems pretty Heavenly to me. :)
     
  18. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    Its the Mystical aspect where God becomes alive and vibrant and animated in life around us.
     
  19. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Not for the original Orthodox Jews or Christians.
     
  20. David Neos

    David Neos Catechumen

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    Not true. Christianity has always been linked to mysticism.
     
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