MY favorite arguments for the existence of the Christian God:

[AV1611VET]

1. Consensus of opinion.

• Every single believer ... past, present, and future ... believes IN THE BEGINNING, GOD. If consensus of opinion carries so much academic weight, then they should give this point a lot more consideration than they do.

2. Cause-and-Effect.

• Edifices, literature, holidays, songs, artwork, history and martyrs all attest to God's existence. If cause-and-effect carries so much academic weight, then they should give this point a lot more consideration than they do.

 

[Dave RP]

1. The same argument applies to Muslims and hundreds of other religions and to children who believe in Santa and the tooth fairy. Just because a lot of people believe something does not mean it's true.

2. How does the fact that some believers have written songs or built churches make any difference. The same can again be said for every other god and every other religion.

You argument is that some people believe in the Christian god, but most people in the world do not, as Christians are in the minority then by your argument the Christian God doesn't exist.

 

[AV1611VET]

1. The same argument applies to Muslims and hundreds of other religions and to children who believe in Santa and the tooth fairy.

Yes, and it also applies to how we got our moon, and is a major factor in decision making in the academic circle.

Just because a lot of people believe something does not mean it's true.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

2. How does the fact that some believers have written songs or built churches make any difference. The same can again be said for every other god and every other religion.

I gave seven examples. Why did you pare it down to two? Are you trying to dilute the point?

You argument is that some people believe in the Christian god, but most people in the world do not, as Christians are in the minority then by your argument the Christian God doesn't exist.

Then employ the same argument for "a god."

Most people in the world believe in "a god," therefore the default position in academia should be that god exists.

As to which god, see my first point.

The fact is, however, that academia does not employ the same argument for the existence of [a] God.

Only against Him, as you are demonstrating.

 

[Dave RP]

Yes, and it also applies to how we got our moon, and is a major factor in decision making in the academic circle.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I gave seven examples. Why did you pare it down to two? Are you trying to dilute the point?

Then employ the same argument for "a god."

Most people in the world believe in "a god," therefore the default position in academia should be that god exists.

As to which god, see my first point.

The fact is, however, that academia does not employ the same argument for the existence of [a] God.

Only against Him, as you are demonstrating.

Academics use the scientific method, they don't ask "who believe what?" and form a conclusion from that. They come up with a hypothesis and test it.

 

[inquiring mind]

God uses the revelation method, and it’s also appropriate to the limits of our understanding. God provides the hypothesis (you might say) and invites you to test it, and everyone who asks receives, everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks the door is opened.

 

[Dave RP]

God uses the revelation method, and it’s also appropriate to the limits of our understanding. God provides the hypothesis (you might say) and invites you to test it, and everyone who asks receives, everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks the door is opened.

Well I’ve got to say that you’re wrong, god has never shown himself to me. He could if he wanted but he doesn’t. In any event, of a god exists, who can tell if he’s the god of the bible or some other religious cult?

Personally I don’t believe in any god BUT if I’m wrong I reckon it’s the same god for everyone. However, why he remains so hidden is a mystery to me!!

 

[inquiring mind]

Well I’ve got to say that you’re wrong, god has never shown himself to me. He could if he wanted but he doesn’t. In any event, of a god exists, who can tell if he’s the god of the bible or some other religious cult?

Personally I don’t believe in any god BUT if I’m wrong I reckon it’s the same god for everyone. However, why he remains so hidden is a mystery to me!!

God is a revealer and a communicator, you just have to look with the same interest that you have with the scientific method. The important thing is to request His guidance and not just depend on yourself. He will not turn His back on the most ignorant or disbelieving person who seeks Him, and He will begin communicating in goo-goo baby talk if He has to. But, you have to truly want to look for Him.

 

[Speedwell]

Only against Him, as you are demonstrating.

No, only against these particular arguments.

1. Consensus of opinion. Most believers in the world don't believe in your god.

2. Cause and effect. All religions do these things, even those who don't worship your god.

 

[AV1611VET]

Academics use the scientific method, they don't ask "who believe what?"

Then what is "consensus of opinion"?

 

[Obliquinaut]

Academics use the scientific method, they don't ask "who believe what?" and form a conclusion from that. They come up with a hypothesis and test it.

^^^^This is key^^^^^. Something many people get backwards.

An hypothesis with lots of evidence creates a consensus. NOT the other way around.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Then what is "consensus of opinion"?

You have it backwards. A good hypothesis with lots and lots of evidence forms a consensus around it.

It is NOT simply a poll of who believes what and that becomes the defacto "fact".

 

[Obliquinaut]

God uses the revelation method, and it’s also appropriate to the limits of our understanding. God provides the hypothesis (you might say) and invites you to test it, and everyone who asks receives, everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks the door is opened.

That sounds great. Unfortunately when I undertook to test the hypothesis of my faith (the hypothesis I had accepted for decades) I ultimately found too little evidence to continue accepting it.

I am glad for people who find reason to believe. It brings them comfort. And usually they use that to do good in the world. (Not always).

I no longer believe but I knocked on the door for a pretty long time. Rang the door bell several times. Peeked in the windows as well (hard to get over the shrubs). Waited to see inside whenever the UPS guy stopped by. But sadly I didn't see anyone home.

 

[Obliquinaut]

2. Cause-and-Effect.

• Edifices, literature, holidays, songs, artwork, history and martyrs all attest to God's existence. If cause-and-effect carries so much academic weight, then they should give this point a lot more consideration than they do.

As I've said before I really love visiting medieval cathedrals when I'm in Europe. It is literally the first place I go when I'm in a new town in Europe. I could spend hours in St. Denis or Notre Dame or Yorkminster. Love it.

So I've done a lot of thinking on people dedicating not just their lives but their generations and huge amounts of money to build these things. Then I remember that humans are amazing creatures with a lot of passion for projects. People dedicate their lives to all sorts of things, not all are religious. It's a hallmark of humanity.

And the people who built the buildings didn't do it through prayer, they did it through hard work and these construction projects were ECONOMIC ENGINES. They provided jobs. Sure they took money from taxes and tithes, but these were as impressive in scope as earlier pagans who hauled giant stones hundreds and hundreds of miles to make Stonehenge.

Yet we are not asked to believe that the Druids beliefs because Stonehenge represents massive human effort.

And one last thing: look at today's churches. Evangelicals seem to prefer a stripped down approach. Their churches are simple wooden buildings when they aren't just repurposed strip mall storefronts. Does that mean that God is less important to them? Presumably not.

 

[inquiring mind]

That sounds great. Unfortunately when I undertook to test the hypothesis of my faith (the hypothesis I had accepted for decades) I ultimately found too little evidence to continue accepting it.

I am glad for people who find reason to believe. It brings them comfort. And usually they use that to do good in the world. (Not always).

I no longer believe but I knocked on the door for a pretty long time. Rang the door bell several times. Peeked in the windows as well (hard to get over the shrubs). Waited to see inside whenever the UPS guy stopped by. But sadly I didn't see anyone home.

I hear you. I’m not being a smart aleck, but I hope you didn’t have a mask on when you were at the door. What I mean is, I think God expects us to be humble and our bare-self (realizing our sin, asking for forgiveness, and wanting Him in our lives) when we try to communicate with Him. I think if we approach Him in any kind of prideful way, like I’ve got the answers and I’ll see how Yours match-up type thing, then there's probably no one home.

 

[AV1611VET]

And the people who built the buildings didn't do it through prayer, they did it through hard work ...

Just so you know:

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And one last thing: look at today's churches. Evangelicals seem to prefer a stripped down approach. Their churches are simple wooden buildings when they aren't just repurposed strip mall storefronts. Does that mean that God is less important to them? Presumably not.

We'll take what we can get nowadays.

 

[Obliquinaut]

Just so you know:

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Silly me, I thought that was about soteriology, not buildings

We'll take what we can get nowadays.

Huh. I thought it was because evangelicals were going for a more primary focus on the relationship with Christ and less on the building. So is it really because they are lazier than folks in the Middle Ages??? Oh well. I'm sure God is still happy. Like having little kids crayon artwork on the fridge while the older sibling is displaying professional art in the galleries.

 

[Obliquinaut]

I hear you. I’m not being a smart aleck, but I hope you didn’t have a mask on when you were at the door.

I have seen this so many times. It is my fault. Because if it isn't my fault then the implications are simply too scary for many believers.

What I mean is, I think God expects us to be humble and our bare-self (realizing our sin, asking for forgiveness, and wanting Him in our lives) when we try to communicate with Him.

I'm sure I'm not as humble as you are and I'm quite certain I'm doing it incorrectly. You are lucky you got everything right and God answered you. Congratulations.

I think if we approach Him in any kind of prideful way, like I’ve got the answers and I’ll see how Yours match-up type thing, then there's probably no one home.

Yes, I did it wrong, I'm certain.

Oh well. At least I tried.

 

[quatona]

1. Consensus of opinion.

• Every single believer ... past, present, and future ... believes IN THE BEGINNING, GOD. If consensus of opinion carries so much academic weight, then they should give this point a lot more consideration than they do.

2. Cause-and-Effect.

• Edifices, literature, holidays, songs, artwork, history and martyrs all attest to God's existence. If cause-and-effect carries so much academic weight, then they should give this point a lot more consideration than they do.

That´s the best you have? Ok.

 

[inquiring mind]

I have seen this so many times. It is my fault. Because if it isn't my fault then the implications are simply too scary for many believers.

I read that we're all kinda in the same position Adam was in, every day of our lives, we have to choose.

I'm sure I'm not as humble as you are and I'm quite certain I'm doing it incorrectly. You are lucky you got everything right and God answered you. Congratulations.

Don't give me too much credit... I fall short a lot, and yes, thankfully God has been very patient with me.

Yes, I did it wrong, I'm certain. Oh well. At least I tried.

As long as we're here, I don't think there's a limit on re-tries.

 

[Strathos]

I like the argument from mathematics in nature.