My Dental Challenge

How would you describe Adam's condition?


  • Total voters
    26
Status
Not open for further replies.

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
9,173
3,656
N/A
✟149,066.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Why have evil in the first place though?

And if Satan hadn't gone against God, what would God have done? Would God have created some entity specifically to be evil?
Because its needed for the best possible world. Like some black color is needed for a perfect photograph.

But theodicy is not the topic of this thread so I do not want to hijack it. My arguments would be very similar to those of Leibniz, to make my position more clear.

Edit: English.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
9,173
3,656
N/A
✟149,066.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You are a dentist, and Adam comes in for a checkup, looking like he did the day he was created from the dust of the ground.

He lists his age as 20 years old, says he has never eaten yet, and you examine him.

Despite being 20 years old, you find no tooth decay whatsoever.

No stains, pits, plaque, chips, cavities, or gum disease.

How would you describe this?
I would describe it as a product of a very literal reading of Genesis :)

Anyway, its not so impossible to have perfect teeth in 20.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,269
6,957
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟373,369.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I would say, that if what happened in the OP happened tomorrow, all "ancient myths" can take a hike.

I'm just wondering how you would explain it, if you were the dentist.

If you said it didn't happen, then you'd be lying to yourself.

If you said it did happen, but it reminded you of some "ancient myth" isn't really assessing your experience properly.
If I were a dentist, and a 20 year old patient had perfect teeth, I’d say that’s great. But if he said he’s Adam and has never eaten a bite of food in his life, I’d think he’s delusional and needs a neuropsychiatric evaluation.

Your challenge might work better at the other end of the age scale. An obviously old, old dude comes for a dental exam. If he still had perfectly good teeth, that would be truly remarkable—the term miraculous might apply. But if said he’s Adam, and is 900 years old, he is definitely delusional and needs psychiatric help.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,674
5,236
✟301,750.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Because its needed for the best possible world. Like some black color is needed for a perfect photograph.

But theodicy is not the topic of this thread so I do not want to hijack it. My arguments would be very similar to those of Leibniz, to make my position more clear.

Edit: English.
The Bible disagrees. When God first created the world, evil wasn't a part of it, yet God declared it to be good.

Or are you suggesting God created a world that was not the best possible world, decided it was good, and then when Adam and Eve did what was required to make it the best possible world, God punished them for doing it and then tried to wipe it all out in the flood in an attempt to return to the less perfect world he had originally created?
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
9,173
3,656
N/A
✟149,066.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Bible disagrees. When God first created the world, evil wasn't a part of it, yet God declared it to be good.

Or are you suggesting God created a world that was not the best possible world, decided it was good, and then when Adam and Eve did what was required to make it the best possible world, God punished them for doing it and then tried to wipe it all out in the flood in an attempt to return to the less perfect world he had originally created?
Evil is represented by waters and serpent.

By the word "world" I mean all the creation, past, present, future, all dimensions, all universe of existence. Not just one stage or just one planet or just people.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,674
5,236
✟301,750.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Evil is represented by waters and serpent.

By the word "world" I mean all the creation, past, present, future, all dimensions, all universe of existence. Not just one stage or just one planet or just people.
I don't see how this answers my question.

Why did God create a world/creation/past/present/future/all dimensions/all the universe/all of existence/whatever else you want to call it withut evil and then say it was GOOD if it didn't have evil? After all, you said that evil was REQUIRED for the world to be the best it could be.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
9,173
3,656
N/A
✟149,066.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't see how this answers my question.

Why did God create a world/creation/past/present/future/all dimensions/all the universe/all of existence/whatever else you want to call it withut evil and then say it was GOOD if it didn't have evil? After all, you said that evil was REQUIRED for the world to be the best it could be.
It answers your question, you just ask it wrongly.

Bible says that the arrangement of our world we live in, was good. Day and night cycle etc. It means our planet's conditions for life.

It says nothing about moral evil being absent. It was not created "without evil" - again, evil is represented for example by waters or serpent, in the story.

Edit: to be more precise, waters represent chaos, disorder, so its rather a representation of a constant danger than of evil as such. Compare for example the symbolism in Revelation that says that there is no sea in the new creation.

Edit2: maybe you can try to define what evil or world you mean
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Frank Robert

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
2,276
1,121
KW
✟127,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't see how this answers my question.

Why did God create a world/creation/past/present/future/all dimensions/all the universe/all of existence/whatever else you want to call it withut evil and then say it was GOOD if it didn't have evil? After all, you said that evil was REQUIRED for the world to be the best it could be.
Assuming a creator deity, the logical answer is "deism."
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,674
5,236
✟301,750.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It answers your question, you just ask it wrongly.
Of course. The problem is mine, because I'm not asking the question you want to answer. And that makes it my fault.

Of course.

Or, let's try something else, and you answer the question I'm actually asking.
Bible says that the arrangement of our world we live in, was good. Day and night cycle etc. It means our planet's conditions for life.
That's one possible interpretation, but there's nothing in Gen 1 which shows that is the only possible interpretation.
It says nothing about moral evil being absent. It was not created "without evil" - again, evil is represented for example by waters or serpent, in the story.
The serpent was not a part of creation week. God did not make Satan as a part of the creation of the world. (And don't get started on the whole "But Kylie, the serpent isn't Satan!" Revelation 12:9 and Revelation 20:2 but show that it was Satan.)

And there's nothing in Gen 1 to suggest the waters represent evil.
Edit: to be more precise, waters represent chaos, disorder, so its rather a representation of a constant danger than of evil as such.
Why do you assume chaotic action means evil? There are lots of things that are chaotic but are not evil. By your logic, a Galton board is evil.

Compare for example the symbolism in Revelation that says that there is no sea in the new creation.
I don't care. I'm discussing reality, not symbolism and metaphor.
Edit2: maybe you can try to define what evil or world you mean
Evil - acting with the intent to cause harm.

World - that which exists in reality.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,674
5,236
✟301,750.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Assuming a creator deity, the logical answer is "deism."
That doesn't answer the question.

Q: Why did God create a world that lacked a required quality and then say it was good without that quality?

A: Deism.

See? That doesn't answer anything.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
9,173
3,656
N/A
✟149,066.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Of course. The problem is mine, because I'm not asking the question you want to answer. And that makes it my fault.
Because you ask "why did God..." while He did not. Its a wrong question.

The serpent was not a part of creation week. God did not make Satan as a part of the creation of the world. (And don't get started on the whole "But Kylie, the serpent isn't Satan!" Revelation 12:9 and Revelation 20:2 but show that it was Satan.)
He did not just pop out to existence from non-existence. Of course he was a part of the creation.

And there's nothing in Gen 1 to suggest the waters represent evil.
...
I don't care. I'm discussing reality, not symbolism and metaphor.
Genesis 1-2 is metaphorical and full of symbolism. Its not a scientific text book with definitions of used terms in the end of the chapter Gen 1.
We must know much more about the language of the Bible and about its culture than just Gen 1, to understand the text of Gen 1.

Why do you assume chaotic action means evil? There are lots of things that are chaotic but are not evil. By your logic, a Galton board is evil.
Thats what ancient people did. Chaos was dangerous, bringing death. Order was good. Cosmos was "good", it was an ordered Universe/creation made from chaos, through Logos (John chapter 1).

Ancient Israel used various symbolism of the danger of our order being destroyed and the world falling back into primordial chaos - waters, even zoomorphism (Leviathan, dragon deep inside the sea). Their trust was in God that He tames the waters, He tames the dragon, by his power, and keeps our existence... in existence. But we were part of the deal. Man was supposed to protect the order (in his area - the garden of Eden), too, but failed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Frank Robert

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2021
2,276
1,121
KW
✟127,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That doesn't answer the question.

Q: Why did God create a world that lacked a required quality and then say it was good without that quality?

A: Deism.

See? That doesn't answer anything.
God works in mysterious ways. :cool:
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,674
5,236
✟301,750.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Because you ask "why did God..." while He did not. Its a wrong question.
So God did not create the world? Because the only way your statement here makes sense is if God didn't create the world, or your point here is that I'm not asking the questions you want to answer.

Since I don't think you're going to say that God didn't create the world, that only leaves the second option. And I don't care if you don't want me asking it. I AM asking it, and your attempts to squirm out of answering it are on show for all to say.
He did not just pop out to existence from non-existence. Of course he was a part of the creation.
So God created Satan, God knew that Satan would cause all those problems, and yet God created Satan anyway and even declared it to be GOOD!?!?!?!?!
Genesis 1-2 is metaphorical and full of symbolism. Its not a scientific text book with definitions of used terms in the end of the chapter Gen 1.
We must know much more about the language of the Bible and about its culture than just Gen 1, to understand the text of Gen 1.
What a nice excuse to have to justify believing it means whatever you want it to mean.
Thats what ancient people did. Chaos was dangerous, bringing death. Order was good. Cosmos was "good", it was an ordered Universe/creation made from chaos, through Logos (John chapter 1).
And do you think we are ancient people?

(newsflash: we are modern people. We don't need to resort to old superstitions that chaos is some embodiment of an evil force that tries to work against us.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
9,173
3,656
N/A
✟149,066.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So God did not create the world? Because the only way your statement here makes sense is if God didn't create the world, or your point here is that I'm not asking the questions you want to answer.

Since I don't think you're going to say that God didn't create the world, that only leaves the second option. And I don't care if you don't want me asking it. I AM asking it, and your attempts to squirm out of answering it are on show for all to say.

So God created Satan, God knew that Satan would cause all those problems, and yet God created Satan anyway and even declared it to be GOOD!?!?!?!?!

What a nice excuse to have to justify believing it means whatever you want it to mean.

And do you think we are ancient people?

(newsflash: we are modern people. We don't need to resort to old superstitions that chaos is some embodiment of an evil force that tries to work against us.)
I do not think you understand the topic enough to have a meaningful conversation, so I will leave it here.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,092
5,667
68
Pennsylvania
✟788,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
When God first created the world, evil wasn't a part of it
How do you know this? Do you assume it because it isn't included in the Genesis 1 account?

(Btw, don't take me to be backing up @myst33 . I don't agree with several claims he made, or more to the point, with his arranging of his claims.)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,674
5,236
✟301,750.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
How do you know this? Do you assume it because it isn't included in the Genesis 1 account?

(Btw, don't take me to be backing up @myst33 . I don't agree with several claims he made, or more to the point, with his arranging of his claims.)
Okay, then let's assume evil WAS included in the creation of the world.

So God made the world with evil included and said it was good?

And if God included the evil, surely he knew what would come of it? And since he deliberately included it knowing what would happen, and still thought it was good, doesn't that indicate that what happened was exactly what God WANTED to happen? He had known it would happen and still went ahead with it anyway?

Doesn't this mean that God wanted evil to exist, and he deliberately chose a system where he would have to punish Adam and Eve, and destroy the world in a flood, and send himself to be sacrificed to himself in the form of Jesus?

Sorry, I find that very hard to believe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,092
5,667
68
Pennsylvania
✟788,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Okay, then let's assume evil WAS included in the creation of the world.

So God made the world with evil included and said it was good?

And if God included the evil, surely he knew what would come of it? And since he deliberately included it knowing what would happen, and still thought it was good, doesn't that indicate that what happened was exactly what God WANTED to happen? He had known it would happen and still went ahead with it anyway?

Doesn't this mean that God wanted evil to exist, and he deliberately chose a system where he would have to punish Adam and Eve, and destroy the world in a flood, and send himself to be sacrificed to himself in the form of Jesus?

Sorry, I find that very hard to believe.
"Evil" takes at least of a couple of meanings. One is just 'hard things', like suffering or catastrophe. But "evil" is also a reference to sin, or sinfulness, or even the horror behind sin. We are talking here about this second meaning: Sinfulness. I'm not myself entirely satisfied with the easy out, though I believe it —that sin does not "exist" as such. The idea is that it is not of itself a "thing", but is only, as theology carefully puts it, "the privation of Good." I believe that much is true, but I don't think that is the whole explanation.

You speak of God wanting. If God exists —that is, if omnipotent first cause exists— pretty much everything we can say about him is by way of anthropomorphism. God, according to excellent theological philosophy, in the attribute called Divine Simplicity, is not made of parts. He doesn't have passions and desires the way we do. That is not to say he doesn't have passions or desires at all, but that they are not parts of him. He is not now ruled by anger and later not. His anger is not without his mercy. And so on. We just don't know how to speak of him without dealing with his various attributes separately. And even his passions and desires are not at all like ours. We just don't have adequate words to describe them.

I don't know if you have read much of philosophy of language and related subjects dealing with how we think. One phenomenon that is apparently intrinsic to our thinking, is that we are not just reasoning, but that we are reasonable —in other words, that our words make perfect sense, and are capable of well-describing what we mean. We attribute substance to our words, when in fact our words do a poor job of describing our concepts, and our concepts are necessarily short of knowledge, understanding and meaning.

So, no. God did not make the world with evil included. He made it so that it would produce evil, specifically, made it so that his angel, Lucifer, would rebel. This was not a mistake, but was intended. Yet God himself did not create that evil. Lucifer began it. Satan is the original author of evil. God caused it, by means of Satan causing it. God "wanted" it? I wouldn't say so, but that he intended and in fact caused it to be so. We have some passages of Scripture that come right out and say so. But also, common sense demands it. As you say, he knew it would happen, yet created precisely would result in it happening.

And so, yes, God deliberately chose a system where he would have to punish Adam and Eve, and destroy the world in a flood, and send himself to be sacrificed to himself in the form of Jesus. God is magnificent, but he is not like us. We can't understand him by thinking of him how we think of ourselves. If he did not know it was going to happen when he created, then he is not after all, God, Omnipotent First Cause, but just a super-human, a god.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,092
5,667
68
Pennsylvania
✟788,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Okay, then let's assume evil WAS included in the creation of the world.

So God made the world with evil included and said it was good?

And if God included the evil, surely he knew what would come of it? And since he deliberately included it knowing what would happen, and still thought it was good, doesn't that indicate that what happened was exactly what God WANTED to happen? He had known it would happen and still went ahead with it anyway?

Doesn't this mean that God wanted evil to exist, and he deliberately chose a system where he would have to punish Adam and Eve, and destroy the world in a flood, and send himself to be sacrificed to himself in the form of Jesus?

Sorry, I find that very hard to believe.
Don't take me wrong if I say this, but God is not only magnificent, but he is awe-ful. He even uses "the angel of death", which to my mind is about as creepy-sounding a horror as I can imagine. He is known to wipe out whole nations of people. He causes the birth and suffering of awfully deformed monstrosities of humans and animals, and "creates evil" (disaster), and even made "the wicked for the day of evil", and that, for God's own purposes. He is not tame. He is not safe. But he is good.

This world, this life, is not about us, but about God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
14,674
5,236
✟301,750.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
"Evil" takes at least of a couple of meanings. One is just 'hard things', like suffering or catastrophe. But "evil" is also a reference to sin, or sinfulness, or even the horror behind sin. We are talking here about this second meaning: Sinfulness. I'm not myself entirely satisfied with the easy out, though I believe it —that sin does not "exist" as such. The idea is that it is not of itself a "thing", but is only, as theology carefully puts it, "the privation of Good." I believe that much is true, but I don't think that is the whole explanation.

You speak of God wanting. If God exists —that is, if omnipotent first cause exists— pretty much everything we can say about him is by way of anthropomorphism. God, according to excellent theological philosophy, in the attribute called Divine Simplicity, is not made of parts. He doesn't have passions and desires the way we do. That is not to say he doesn't have passions or desires at all, but that they are not parts of him. He is not now ruled by anger and later not. His anger is not without his mercy. And so on. We just don't know how to speak of him without dealing with his various attributes separately. And even his passions and desires are not at all like ours. We just don't have adequate words to describe them.

I don't know if you have read much of philosophy of language and related subjects dealing with how we think. One phenomenon that is apparently intrinsic to our thinking, is that we are not just reasoning, but that we are reasonable —in other words, that our words make perfect sense, and are capable of well-describing what we mean. We attribute substance to our words, when in fact our words do a poor job of describing our concepts, and our concepts are necessarily short of knowledge, understanding and meaning.

So, no. God did not make the world with evil included. He made it so that it would produce evil, specifically, made it so that his angel, Lucifer, would rebel. This was not a mistake, but was intended. Yet God himself did not create that evil. Lucifer began it. Satan is the original author of evil. God caused it, by means of Satan causing it. God "wanted" it? I wouldn't say so, but that he intended and in fact caused it to be so. We have some passages of Scripture that come right out and say so. But also, common sense demands it. As you say, he knew it would happen, yet created precisely would result in it happening.

And so, yes, God deliberately chose a system where he would have to punish Adam and Eve, and destroy the world in a flood, and send himself to be sacrificed to himself in the form of Jesus. God is magnificent, but he is not like us. We can't understand him by thinking of him how we think of ourselves. If he did not know it was going to happen when he created, then he is not after all, God, Omnipotent First Cause, but just a super-human, a god.
All that comes across as a very wordy way of saying, "It doesn't make sense, but believe it anyway."
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.