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My confusion over the Old Law

Discussion in 'For New Christians' started by IMNW, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    Philippians 1:27
    Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;​

    Christian conduct is not about keeping OT laws. It's treating others as you would like to be treated, contributing to the needs of the saints and practicing hospitality so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world. We are instructed to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age. We're told to make it our ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with our hands so to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.
     
  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    You are contradicting yourself by saying that Christian conduct is not about keeping OT laws and then proceeding to describe Christian conduct as doing things that are all accordance with keeping OT laws. Where else do you think the NT authors got their instructions?
     
  3. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    The difference is that your talking ceremonially and I'm not. Your referring to keeping the cup clean on the outside.
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Everything in the Bible is there to teach us about God and how to have a relationship with Him, and this includes God's Law. God has always been primarily concerned with where our heart is at, and has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed His Laws while their hearts were far from Him because that was missing the whole point of keeping the Law, so ceremonial laws were never about keeping the cup clean on the outside, and that's not even commanded by God's Law, but was part of the Pharisaic tradition (Mark 7:3-4).

    In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they were worshiping God in vain because they were teaching the commands of men as doctrines (Matthew 15:8-9), and that the were hypocrites because they were setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so it is important to understand that Jesus criticized the Pharisees for not keeping God's Law and for teaching their own traditions as God's Law. This means that it is critically important to correctly distinguish between what was said about God's Law and what was said about what the Pharisees were teaching as God's Law. If you take a criticism that was only against the Pharisees as being against obeying what our God has commanded, then you have misunderstood what was being said.

    If you still disagree ceremonial laws, then I invite you to interact with what I said about 1 Peter 1:13-16, or many of the other verses that I quoted in my previous post.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  5. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    Corban law as an example when Jesus used it to distinquish between robbing widows and looking after parents is hardly a good example. Let's just agree to disagree because law of the letter and law of the spirit are mindsets that I don't believe can be moved.
    I greatly enjoy all your other posts but I could never agree with you on law matters.
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Let's check if this always holds true:


    Romans 2:13-15Tree of Life Version (TLV)

    13 For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the Torah, do by nature the things of the Torah, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the Torah. 15 They show that the work of the Torah is written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts switching between accusing or defending them
     
  7. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I made a last minute edit to post that you might have missed that washing cups was not even something that was commanded by God's Law, but was part of a Pharisaic tradition (Mark 7:3-4). While what the Pharisees taught was certainly based on God's Law, they were not teaching it correctly. Corbon was another example of how they were not following the Law correctly. During the 1st century, there was a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences for how they taught to obey God's Law, such as their being 24 chapters in the Mishna for just how to follow the command to rest of the Sabbath.

    Thank you, I appreciate your posts as well, so I can leave it here if you want. Though I think that you will find this video interesting by an ex-Pharisee who is speaking about the historical background to provide the context of what Jesus was dealing with:

     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Romans 7:7-25 - The Law and Sin - What shall we say, - Bible Gateway
    Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:7-25 - New International Version
    The Law and Sin - What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not!

    Romans 3:31 NKJV - Do we then make void the law through - Bible ...
    Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3:31 - New International Version...
    Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

    Jesus and the Apostles and the disciples continued....... they did not discontinue the TORAH/ law.... throughout the New Testament,
    and every century since then,

    according to God's Word.
     
  9. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    I'll file it and maybe look at it later. But being that it;s over 2hr long I don't know the likelihood :)
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I completely understand and apologize about its length, but comes someone who was a Pharisee, so it contains a lot of insightful information from a perspective that many people have never heard, and I think it is valuable because many Christians don't have a good background understanding of what Pharisaism is about and why Jesus had such a big problem with them. Don't feel you need to watch it all in one sitting, so perhaps watch 15 minutes to see if it is interesting and then make a decision whether to watch the rest.
     
  11. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    I watched 15 min from the xPharisee Judaist teacher teaching on Christianity and the only thing that I got from it is that handwashing is as unbiblical as women keeping silent. It's just a rabinical law that is not found in the bible. Right?
     
  12. discipler7

    discipler7 Active Member

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    God had a message in His kosher food laws(LEVITICUS.11) = to tell the Jews to avoid beastly/sinful/evil/satanic behavior, eg pigs are lazy, greedy gluttons and ungrateful, wild pack dogs are gangster-bullies and are super-loyal to the Alpha-dog(= false God/idol), rabbits are randy hedonists(= sexually immoral), cats/tigers prey on smaller animals and are independent/non-loyal/unfaithful, etc.
    ... The permitted animals are tame, harmless and have good behavior, eg sheep are obedient and loyal/faithful to the shepherd.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    How about having a choice from the farm of cows ?
    One cow is fed naturally, food that grows unadulterated and healthy.
    One cow is fed human dung , waste vegetables sprayed with pesticides, growth hormones, and blood from cows that died of unknown disease.

    Which cow would someone want their beef to come from ?
     
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Looking back at it, that is about when he starts getting into the important principles to know about Pharisaism, so you might want to continue a little further. Among other problems, they considered themselves to be the ultimate authority on interpreting Scripture to the point where not even God has a say. These principles really illustrate why Jesus was criticizing them for setting aside the commands of God to establish their own traditions and why should be careful to distinguish between what they were teaching and what God commanded. Another example of this would be in Acts 15:1, where the Jews were wanting to required all Gentiles to become circumcised for the expressed purpose of becoming saved according the the Law of Moses, but again the Law of Moses contains no such requirement, yet people interpret the rejection of this man-made requirement as being of God's Law. While God did require all Jews to become circumcised, not even they were required to do so for the purpose of becoming saved.
     
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Leviticus 11:44-45, God said to be holy for He is holy, so while it could certainly be true that God wanted to teach certain temperaments, God's holiness is about much more than that.
     
  16. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ In Christ our Hope of Glory Supporter

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    Moses allowed divorce. That may have been the beginning of Phariseeism. It become common after the Macabeans allowed it but not before opening the door to the Romans. Circumcision of the heart is mandatory. I have no interest in being encouraged to study another religion. I find that in studying the authentic we can spot the counterfiet. I can do that w/o studying Phasieeism. I don't think it to be necessary. Paul learnt to put his own blinders on in running his race as should we all.
     
  17. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When did doing things in accordance with keeping, become keeping?

    Don't try to rewrite the Bible now.

    As far as your last question, JESUS CHRIST. The one who came AFTER the OT laws.
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    It is not clear to me why you do not consider acting in accordance with laws to be keeping them.

    Everything Jesus did and taught was in accordance with OT laws.
     
  19. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because the Law doesn't save anyone. No one, not even the Patriarch's were saved by the Law.

    The law is a guide of what is good in God's site, but it is faith that saves and nothing in the law is based upon faith.

    I act in accordance to Jesus commands to love each other and love God each day and that usually means keeping the 10 commandments, but that does not mean that the 10 commandments saves.

    Words are important and the meaning is important.
     
  20. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'll agree with everything Jesus did was in accordance with OT law, but then to be perfect He had to obey ALL of what is good, perfect and just.

    Now, the second part that all Jesus taught was in accordance with OT laws, not so much. Because see, Jesus fulfilled the law and in it's fulfillment He gave us two new laws.

    So part two, nope.
     
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