My confusion over the Old Law

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Forgive my ignorance, if I cause offence here then it is due to my poor understanding rather than any wish to anger.
It was my understanding that Old Testament Law was for the people of Israel specifically. Does the fact that the Old Covenant was aimed towards Israel mean that the Ten Commandments are inapplicable to Christians?

I seem to have got myself awfully confused here-Thanks in advance!

The Law was made for all people to believe, but is not for us today...

 

[RGW00]

Forgive my ignorance, if I cause offence here then it is due to my poor understanding rather than any wish to anger.
It was my understanding that Old Testament Law was for the people of Israel specifically. Does the fact that the Old Covenant was aimed towards Israel mean that the Ten Commandments are inapplicable to Christians?

I seem to have got myself awfully confused here-Thanks in advance!

It wasn't necessarily just for Israel. But at the time those were some of the only people that followed God and claimed those were His chosen people. The Old Law doesn't apply to even them today (or shouldn't anyway, but according to the Jewish people, this doesn't apply) because Jesus Christ died for our sins and relieved us of the Old Law. The New Law is to believe in Jesus Christ and trust Him with all of your heart. That's our call as Christians.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Law was made for all people to believe, but is not for us today...

Hi Dreamer, did you mean that "the Law was made for all people to OBEY"? If not, please elaborate.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[HQwriterADH]

If it didn't apply to us today, it wouldn't be in the Bible. Those tablets would have been destroyed without any documentation. Romans 15:4 reads- "For whatever things were written before were written for our leaning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope." The old testament is being mistreated in our generation as it is treated as useless knowledge. If i watch an episode of jeopardy, the only point i see in some of the things they know is that they can make money on that show. Jesus taught us about Parables in the New Testament, the old testament is full of stories that if we treat as parables, we can apply them to our lives now! Try reading "Heaven Quest- A Detour Home" it's available on amazon. To think that the ten commandments are worthless to us now is just crazy talk.

 

[RGW00]

If it didn't apply to us today, it wouldn't be in the Bible. Those tablets would have been destroyed without any documentation. Romans 15:4 reads- "For whatever things were written before were written for our leaning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope." The old testament is being mistreated in our generation as it is treated as useless knowledge. If i watch an episode of jeopardy, the only point i see in some of the things they know is that they can make money on that show. Jesus taught us about Parables in the New Testament, the old testament is full of stories that if we treat as parables, we can apply them to our lives now! Try reading "Heaven Quest- A Detour Home" it's available on amazon. To think that the ten commandments are worthless to us now is just crazy talk.

It does apply to us. The Ten Commandments still apply. What I am talking about is the laws that the Israelites had to follow in order to keep on the path to the Promised Land. All the sacrifices and hard details are for us to realize how much we were in need of Jesus to come to the cross. Could you imagine still trying to follow each of those individual laws today with the kind of society we live in? We would all be condemned to Hell because none of us could keep up with it. It's what God wanted us to know for how they had to live without Jesus having come to Earth yet.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It wasn't necessarily just for Israel. But at the time those were some of the only people that followed God and claimed those were His chosen people. The Old Law doesn't apply to even them today (or shouldn't anyway, but according to the Jewish people, this doesn't apply) because Jesus Christ died for our sins and relieved us of the Old Law. The New Law is to believe in Jesus Christ and trust Him with all of your heart. That's our call as Christians.

God gave Israel the designation of being His chosen people. God chose them. Not the other way around.

 

[RGW00]

God gave Israel the designation of being His chosen people. God chose them. Not the other way around.

That's what I said. God chose them to be His chosen people.

 

[Soyeong]

Forgive my ignorance, if I cause offence here then it is due to my poor understanding rather than any wish to anger.
It was my understanding that Old Testament Law was for the people of Israel specifically. Does the fact that the Old Covenant was aimed towards Israel mean that the Ten Commandments are inapplicable to Christians?

I seem to have got myself awfully confused here-Thanks in advance!

The Mosaic Law was given to Israel, but it was never meant only for Israel, and there has always been Gentiles who have attached themselves to Israel. Israel was intended to be a light to the nations to teaching them about God and how to walk in His ways (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6). God's Law is not instructions for how to act like Israelites, but rather it is instructions for how to walk in God's ways (Deuteronomy 8:6). In other words, it instructs us how to live according to God's attributes: holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7). God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore so are all of His instructions for how to live according to His righteousness (Psalms 119:160). So the the Law was given, including the Ten Commandments, it did not change what was righteous, but revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do what is righteous, and as part of the New Covenant, we are still instructed to do what is righteous in accordance with God's righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[Soyeong]

It can be confusing, and unfortunately there is no shortage of divergent views among believers.

2Cor 3 tells us the letter kills but the spirit gives life, and that our covenant is of the spirit, not the letter. Romans 6-8, 10 shows the futility of keeping law for the sake of justification, how we have died to the Mosaic Law, how we are free of condemnation in Christ, and how love fulfills the law.

Christ came to fulfill, not abolish, the law. The OT gives us a framework for our faith. We don't kick it away and say it's wrong, we learn from it. Galatians tells us it is a tutor that leads us to Christ. But we are not enslaved by it, to try to earn our salvation. It's been said that the OT is the best commentary on the NT, and that the reverse is true as well.

If someone thinks that obedience to the Law is slavery, then the should reflect negatively on their opinion of the Lawgiver. Rather, God did not save the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt to put them back under slavery to His Law, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1), and God's Law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), while it is sin in transgression of God's Law that makes us slaves (John 8:34).

At no point has God ever required anyone to obey His Law in order to earn our salvation, so God never needed to set anyone free from that in the first place, though God has needed to set us free from that fundamental misunderstanding of His Law. That fact that the Israelites had this misunderstanding of God's Law is the reason why they failed to obtain righteousness (Romans 9:30 - Romans 10:10), but rather obedience to God has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love, while obedience to God without being focused on this relationship is what Paul called rubbish because it was missing the whole point (Philippians 3:8). It is this outward obedience according to the letter without regard to spirit of growing in a relationship with God that kills, not obedience to the Law as it has always been intended.

To fulfill the law means to make God's will as made known in His Law to be obeyed as it should be, and so Jesus fulfilled the Law by teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which means that it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did, but to correctly obeying it as it should be obeyed. The Law leads us to Christ because it instructions for how to have a relationship with Him based on faith and love.

Romans 7:4 is not referring to us dying to the Mosaic Law, but to the law of our husband, as per the example he gave in the previous verses.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Forgive my ignorance, if I cause offence here then it is due to my poor understanding rather than any wish to anger.
It was my understanding that Old Testament Law was for the people of Israel specifically. Does the fact that the Old Covenant was aimed towards Israel mean that the Ten Commandments are inapplicable to Christians?

I seem to have got myself awfully confused here-Thanks in advance!

The Law is a very strange thing. Its' intended purpose was to show outsiders the wisdom and power of God. It was given to Israel, but it has been found as some sort of blueprint for major civilizations early moral codes. There is some consideration that this could be some byproduct from whatever the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil gave.

But, to take it too literally, as even this way might (or must?), perform, we have had it pointed out by Paul "I do not understand the Law", "the Law is spiritual, but I am flesh".

As he showed he did see spiritual hidden meanings in the Law, it may be he meant that he even currently saw the Law as beyond his own comprehension.

(For instance, he pointed out that the law about not feeding the oxen threshing the grain, was 'not for oxen, but for us'. Specifically, those Christians operating on behalf of the Church should get some manner of pay for their work. Which is effectively see that verse as some manner of cipher.)

 

[Soyeong]

The Law is a very strange thing. Its' intended purpose was to show outsiders the wisdom and power of God. It was given to Israel, but it has been found as some sort of blueprint for major civilizations early moral codes. There is some consideration that this could be some byproduct from whatever the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil gave.

But, to take it too literally, as even this way might (or must?), perform, we have had it pointed out by Paul "I do not understand the Law", "the Law is spiritual, but I am flesh".

As he showed he did see spiritual hidden meanings in the Law, it may be he meant that he even currently saw the Law as beyond his own comprehension.

(For instance, he pointed out that the law about not feeding the oxen threshing the grain, was 'not for oxen, but for us'. Specifically, those Christians operating on behalf of the Church should get some manner of pay for their work. Which is effectively see that verse as some manner of cipher.)

Nowhere did Paul say that he did not understand God's Law. The Law is spiritual because it has always been meant to teach us how to live according to deeper spiritual principles, and these principles are the attributes of God. In other words, the Law was given to teach us how to reflect God's holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7), and to thereby grow in a relationship with Him.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Nowhere did Paul say that he did not understand God's Law. The Law is spiritual because it has always been meant to teach us how to live according to deeper spiritual principles, and these principles are the attributes of God. In other words, the Law was given to teach us how to reflect God's holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7), and to thereby grow in a relationship with Him.

I apologize.

I am a Jesus fanatic.

So, when people tell me about the other people they worship, I just kind of go blurry eyed.

 

[Soyeong]

I apologize.

I am a Jesus fanatic.

So, when people tell me about the other people they worship, I just kind of go blurry eyed.

No need to apologize for being a Jesus fanatic, but where has anyone talked about other people they worship?

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

No need to apologize for being a Jesus fanatic, but where has anyone talked about other people they worship?

Looking back over the responses and statements, you stated that you were unaware of the verses I quoted. Which is fine enough for me, these are basic verses anyone interested in the Law and the Gospels should be versed in. So, when someone tells me that they are not, and they do something such as state that we should be obeying the Law as our salvation... that, to me, is following some other "god".

It is true, if I were interested in some manner of debate which would be meaningless and counter-productive, I might go and pull up the chapter and verse. However, I am not. My decision of you being worshipping some other "god" is based on your insistence to find salvation not by the cross, but by following any manner of rules of "do this" and "do not do that".

This is the default response and lifestyle of those who live slightly above that of apes and dogs, and whose greatest aim in life is to be a robot that might follow pre-programmed scripts.

I do not understand how this is not obvious?


One thing I feel comfortable here, is anyone who does that has zero power. At very best, if someone cares about their opinion, it will be inclusive in their peer group. Which is all mortal human beings who have zero power...

Zero power, zero evidence. I am not sure the purpose of living such a meaningless life.

 

[Soyeong]

Looking back over the responses and statements, you stated that you were unaware of the verses I quoted. Which is fine enough for me, these are basic verses anyone interested in the Law and the Gospels should be versed in. So, when someone tells me that they are not, and they do something such as state that we should be obeying the Law as our salvation... that, to me, is following some other "god".

It is true, if I were interested in some manner of debate which would be meaningless and counter-productive, I might go and pull up the chapter and verse. However, I am not. My decision of you being worshipping some other "god" is based on your insistence to find salvation not by the cross, but by following any manner of rules of "do this" and "do not do that".

This is the default response and lifestyle of those who live slightly above that of apes and dogs, and whose greatest aim in life is to be a robot that might follow pre-programmed scripts.

I do not understand how this is not obvious?


One thing I feel comfortable here, is anyone who does that has zero power. At very best, if someone cares about their opinion, it will be inclusive in their peer group. Which is all mortal human beings who have zero power...

Zero power, zero evidence. I am not sure the purpose of living such a meaningless life.

I apologize if I have not been clear, but I have not said that I was unaware of the verses you quoted, that we should be obeying the Law as our salvation, or that our greatest aim in life is to be a robot that might follow pre-programmed scripts. God had many reasons for giving the Law, but providing the means of salvation or producing robots are not among them.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I apologize if I have not been clear, but I have not said that I was unaware of the verses you quoted, that we should be obeying the Law as our salvation, or that our greatest aim in life is to be a robot that might follow pre-programmed scripts. God had many reasons for giving the Law, but providing the means of salvation or producing robots are not among them.

...

Okay, Soyeong, that is good. Then, what are you saying.

If you want to know my perspective here, everyone sins. You included.

Where I get angry about people doing evil is when they disobey the gospels.


Every person transgresses the Law. Why is transgressing the word of Jesus in the Name of Jesus okay?


The problem, as we all well know, is where people try and create a salvation by a religion of rules of "do this" and "do not do that".

Which Jesus specifically condemned as the default religion of human beings.

I do not think Galatians is that hard nor that difficult of a book for everyone to have read here.

I can tell you right off, folks who "want to be teachers of the Law" are going to lose. Because they have no power. No evidence. Nothing.

So, how can any true believer in their right heart and mind fail to see many who, 'in the Name of Christ' do and say the exact opposite of what Christ taught??

But, bottomline, a dog's life is a dog's life. That is, what? Chasing one's tail. Sleeping. Defecating. Attempting to procreate.

A dog barks, and a dog can bite, but we are here talking about the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Power.

Eternal life is not found by this or that verse, nor by ingestion of robotic scripts, but by the Kingdom and Heavenly power.

 

[Soyeong]

Where I get angry about people doing evil is when they disobey the gospels.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law was given to reveal what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to God's Law is an integral part of the Gospel message.

The problem, as we all well know, is where people try and create a salvation by a religion of rules of "do this" and "do not do that".

This has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of God's Law and of God's character because it makes it out to be that what God primarily wants from us is our obedience when since the beginning with God walking with Adam in the Garden, what He has primarily wanted from us is an intimate relationship with us, and His Law is His instructions for how to grow in that relationship. If it were just about a robotic list of rules, then God would not have always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed Him while their hearts were far from Him.

I do not think Galatians is that hard nor that difficult of a book for everyone to have read here.

Galatians is actually one of the most misunderstood books of the Bible. In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that they made void the Word of God for the sake of their tradition (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrine the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so it is important to understand that the problem Jesus had with them was that they were not following God's Law and that what they were teaching as God's Law was actually their own traditions. So if you are not careful to distinguish between what is said about God's Law and what is said about man-made works of law, then you will not correctly understand books like Galatians.

For example, in Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles. However, this law is not found anywhere in God's Law, so it is therefore a man-made law, and it was this man-made law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-15 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles.

I can tell you right off, folks who "want to be teachers of the Law" are going to lose. Because they have no power. No evidence. Nothing.

As a follower of God, what do you have against those teaching people to follow what God has commanded?

So, how can any true believer in their right heart and mind fail to see many who, 'in the Name of Christ' do and say the exact opposite of what Christ taught??

Christ was sinless, which means that he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to God's Law, and we are told to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6) and to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). So he taught obedience to God's Law both by word and by example.

A dog barks, and a dog can bite, but we are here talking about the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Power.

In the same way that obedience to our country's laws is the way to act as a citizen of our country, obedience to God's Law is the way to act as a citizen of His Kingdom.

Eternal life is not found by this or that verse, nor by ingestion of robotic scripts, but by the Kingdom and Heavenly power.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said if we want to enter into life, then obey the commandments. However, if someone thinks of the Law as a robotic script, then they will fail to enter into life because obedience to God is about acting out of faith and love and thereby growing in an intimate relationship with Him, and it is only though that relationship that we enter life.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Wow, okay, a lot of words, and a lot of nothing.

You want me to go through your statements point by point to show you your errors. And, I already told you that you are wrong.

So, what can I do?

Point out you have never heard from God, nor seen nor had anything miraculous ever happen to you?

Anyone who is a follower of Jesus would exclaim how bad and often it is that people claim to be of Jesus and yet do the exact opposite...


I think power here is the main thing I have a disagreement with you on.

I mean, to me, what you are saying is wishy washy. You say one thing, then another. But, the bottomline is you are going by your own mind. And it shows. It is bad. It is dumb. It will not catch on.

Plenty of false beliefs catch on, but this won't.

You can maybe get a small group in your area of living. If you are "lucky" (in quotes), you can even get a big cult. I doubt there is time for anyone to get a big cult.

And then what? Would that make you happy?


I mean, you tell me. As someone whom God has never spoken to, why are you running with this message?


If you would prefer, I could answer point by point. Though, probably not, as I am not sure of the point of explaining such matters to someone who is false and has never been commanded nor instructed by God.


My only question then, remains, why? Never actually instructed by God. Never commanded by God. No sure sign of Heaven and God and angels, at all. Why on earth are you trying to take Scripture by only the power of your own mind and flesh, and bend it to try and have your own believers?


Why not first, as Jesus instructed, try and seek the Kingdom of Heaven? Then, maybe, if Jesus has something for you to say, speak?


I have to say, I find here, a seemingly countless number of groups starting by men who never even have heard from God at all.


You certainly seem to be one of these. So, why?


(Oh, at any point in your responses you would have said otherwise, if that were the case. Just like a cop would show his badge right off. So, yeah. Fakes. They are glaring to me. In my old age.)


As for your intelligence, I am not persuaded of that, either. I state this nicely. What, exactly, have you done in your life to persuade you that you have outsmarted all Christians who follow Jesus first and foremost and disagree with the galatians who were in error??

I do not believe you are an idiot, though I do wonder if you are actually accomlished in any area, enough that you might be as a bulldog, in arguments on the most holy of things... with no regard to punishment or fines.

 

[Soyeong]

Wow, okay, a lot of words, and a lot of nothing.

You want me to go through your statements point by point to show you your errors. And, I already told you that you are wrong.

So, what can I do?

Point out you have never heard from God, nor seen nor had anything miraculous ever happen to you?

Anyone who is a follower of Jesus would exclaim how bad and often it is that people claim to be of Jesus and yet do the exact opposite...


I think power here is the main thing I have a disagreement with you on.

I mean, to me, what you are saying is wishy washy. You say one thing, then another. But, the bottomline is you are going by your own mind. And it shows. It is bad. It is dumb. It will not catch on.

Plenty of false beliefs catch on, but this won't.

You can maybe get a small group in your area of living. If you are "lucky" (in quotes), you can even get a big cult. I doubt there is time for anyone to get a big cult.

And then what? Would that make you happy?


I mean, you tell me. As someone whom God has never spoken to, why are you running with this message?


If you would prefer, I could answer point by point. Though, probably not, as I am not sure of the point of explaining such matters to someone who is false and has never been commanded nor instructed by God.


My only question then, remains, why? Never actually instructed by God. Never commanded by God. No sure sign of Heaven and God and angels, at all. Why on earth are you trying to take Scripture by only the power of your own mind and flesh, and bend it to try and have your own believers?


Why not first, as Jesus instructed, try and seek the Kingdom of Heaven? Then, maybe, if Jesus has something for you to say, speak?


I have to say, I find here, a seemingly countless number of groups starting by men who never even have heard from God at all.


You certainly seem to be one of these. So, why?


(Oh, at any point in your responses you would have said otherwise, if that were the case. Just like a cop would show his badge right off. So, yeah. Fakes. They are glaring to me. In my old age.)


As for your intelligence, I am not persuaded of that, either. I state this nicely. What, exactly, have you done in your life to persuade you that you have outsmarted all Christians who follow Jesus first and foremost and disagree with the galatians who were in error??

I do not believe you are an idiot, though I do wonder if you are actually accomlished in any area, enough that you might be as a bulldog, in arguments on the most holy of things... with no regard to punishment or fines.

Your post is essentially just bashing my post, but does not actually engage with anything I've said. I'm not here to insult you or to be insulted by you, but to have a hopefully fruitful discussion. I naturally do not think that my position is wrong, but I am sure that there are things that I am wrong about, and I don't want to be wrong, so I am open to being persuaded, but I do not find personal attacks to be persuasive. If I've said something that is wrong, then I invite you to engage with what I've said by explaining why you think it is wrong and explaining what the correct understanding should be.

 

[Radagast]

the Ten Commandments are inapplicable to Christians?

The Ten Commandments are confirmed in the New Testament, both in the Epistles and in the Gospels.