my brother is being a troll

FireDragon76

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Yesterday my brother just confronted me after church with something rude. He started asking questions about our church, in a way that was attacking the character of the people there and telling me "your church is obviously failing to be relevant to young people".

It really made me upset. He is irreligious, and the things he said were very hurtful.

First, I pointed out that yes, we do have young people at our church, but older people often attend on wednedays during Lent. Then he asked why we only have additional services during Lent, and we pointed out that the additional expense of keeping the doors open all the time couldn't be justified given Florida's climate. Then he started attacking the "business" of our church, that obviously we were not making money like a real business, that the people were just lazy Christians (which I found extremely hurtful).

Then, I told him that was my religion and I didn't think it was a good idea to discuss those issue in that manner because he obviously did not understand what we believe, and the very good reasons we do what we do. That he did not understand our ways, it would be spiritual confusion and cheapening grace to run our church in the way he suggested. That it was God's job to draw people to the church ultimately (this bit really bothered me because I knew hew would not understand this, but that's the exact way I became part of the church- people do show up as guests without having to have external inducements or manipulation). Then he said, well, you all are obviously failing then (at this point I became completely frustrated).

On reflecting on this, it seems like he just is being a troll at times. I confronted him about it, but he acted like he was doing me a favor in engaging in such a confrontational conversation. Which just seems like something a sick mind says. So, it bothered me a great deal.
 
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miknik5

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Yesterday my brother just confronted me after church with something rude. He started asking questions about our church, in a way that was attacking the character of the people there and telling me "your church is obviously failing to be relevant to young people".

It really made me upset. He is irreligious, and the things he said were very hurtful.

First, I pointed out that yes, we do have young people at our church, but older people often attend on wednedays during Lent. Then he asked why we only have additional services during Lent, and we pointed out that the additional expense of keeping the doors open all the time couldn't be justified given Florida's climate. Then he started attacking the "business" of our church, that obviously we were not making money like a real business, that the people were just lazy Christians (which I found extremely hurtful).

Then, I told him that was my religion and I didn't think it was a good idea to discuss those issue in that manner because he obviously did not understand what we believe, and the very good reasons we do what we do. That he did not understand our ways, it would be spiritual confusion and cheapening grace to run our church in the way he suggested. That it was God's job to draw people to the church ultimately (this bit really bothered me because I knew hew would not understand this, but that's the exact way I became part of the church- people do show up as guests without having to have external inducements or manipulation). Then he said, well, you all are obviously failing then (at this point I became completely frustrated).

On reflecting on this, it seems like he just is being a troll at times. I confronted him about it, but he acted like he was doing me a favor in engaging in such a confrontational conversation. Which just seems like something a sick mind says. So, it bothered me a great deal.
He loves you
He's your brother
Brothers look out for brothers

What is his faith
Do you know his church?
 
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High Fidelity

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It sounds like he's just young and thinks he has all the answers.

He's making claims but I bet if you ask him to explain exactly what he means by that, he'd fall flat on his face.

Just tell him you'd be happy to sit with him and go over everything in detail with him.
 
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FireDragon76

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What is his faith
Do you know his church?

I mentioned that he was irreligious at the beginning, which means he doesn't go to church.

He was raised Methodist, the same as I was. But he is agnostic now.
 
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miknik5

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I mentioned that he was irreligious at the beginning, which means he doesn't go to church.

He was raised Methodist, the same as I was. But he is agnostic now.
Did you invite him to the church or was it a special family event that he attended which brought him to your church?
 
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FireDragon76

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Did you invite him to the church or was it a special family event that he attended which brought him to your church?

Sometimes he drives us to church. Sometimes we get a ride home from the pastor, other times he takes us home.

I have invited him to come in once or twice, but he's just not interested.

On Sundays, one of the elders in the church picks us up and she gives us a ride usually. We don't typically have wednesday night services during the week.

Lutherans do not stress evangelism like other churches, so I don't try to "sell" my religion to him. He just seems to get offended by my religion.
 
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miknik5

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Sometimes he drives us to church. Sometimes we get a ride home from the pastor, other times he takes us home.

I have invited him to come in once or twice, but he's just not interested.

On Sundays, one of the elders in the church picks us up and she gives us a ride usually. We don't typically have wednesday night services during the week.

Lutherans do not stress evangelism like other churches, so I don't try to "sell" my religion to him. He just seems to get offended by my religion.
I understand
But what he is seeing, is the religion and he doesn't understand the inner love of GOD that you have. Thst, maybe is what he's missing

That maybe is what you need to explain to him
 
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miknik5

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every church. Every outward denominational church practices in community an outward expression ( before the eyes of men) of what should be an inward profession ( before the eyes of GOD)

If one doesn't have that inward love of GOD, all they are going to see (in every CHRISTIAN denomination) is ordered rituals
and it makes no sense to them
 
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FireDragon76

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I understand
But what he is seeing, is the religion and he doesn't understand the inner love of GOD that you have. Thst, maybe is what he's missing

He doesn't even understand the religion. All he understands are cliches. I really got upset when he said people at my church were lazy or lukewarm (which just sounds like something presumptive to say). But I put a lid on my emotions because I knew that provoking me is what he wanted to do.

It would take a miracle for my brother to understand, honestly. He has never been very interested in religion that I recall. Even as a kid when he was confirmed, he really resented the whole thing. What's really frightening about him, I'm not sure he even believes in love as something good. He's a very self-absorbed person. The only thing he really relates to is my mom and dad's family cat.
 
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miknik5

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He doesn't even understand the religion. All he understands are cliches. I really got upset when he said people at my church were lazy or lukewarm (which just sounds like something presumptive to say). But I put a lid on my emotions because I knew that provoking me is what he wanted to do.

So your brother does know the GOSPEL? His use of "lukewarm" people at your church. What did he base this on?

fire dragon said:
It would take a miracle for my brother to understand, honestly. He has never been very interested in religion that I recall. Even as a kid when he was confirmed, he really resented the whole thing. What's really frightening about him, I'm not sure he even believes in love as something good. He's a very self-absorbed person. The only thing he really relates to is my mom and dad's family cat.
Ask him what is his concept of GOD's nature that made him offended that you are worshiping HIM the best way you know how to because of your LOVE for HIM

And remind him that GOD sees you and what may offend him does not offend GOD because HE sees the heart and knows who is worshipping HIM in TRUTH, in their spirit

Tell him that All you are seeing is the outward attempts to honor GOD because of what HE has done for us, but the hearts of those who love HIM are known to HIM
 
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Tangible

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Rod Rosenbladt is a Lutheran professor and theologian who interacts regularly with other kinds of Christians and is a regular guest on the well known Whitehorse Inn podcast. Dr Rosenbladt gave a lecture before a group of students at Westminster Seminary a few years ago that I think may be very helpful for you in dealing with your brother, and perhaps he would be willing to hear it for himself at some point. Below is a link to his lecture in several different formats, both transcript and audio.

The Gospel For Those Broken By The Church

"In this staggeringly potent presentation, Dr. Rosenbladt tackles what plagues many ‘recovering Christians’. Sticking to his unchanging theme of 200-proof Gospel, using his own history as an agnostic “outsider” to Christianity, Dr. Rosenbladt delivers the grace of the cross with all its potency, undiluted.

"If you’ve struggled with your faith in your church because of what you’re seeing and hearing (and maybe don’t even go to church anymore), you don’t want to miss this powerful address – an unabashed analysis of the church today and what it is doing to many believers – from one who has experienced it himself."
 
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FireDragon76

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I'll look into that link, though I'm left wondering exactly how my brother could have found Methodism hurtful. Dr. Rosenblatt seems to be dealing with victims of fundamentalist burnout.

The only thing I can think of, one time our church youth group leaders were living together before marriage and an older woman at church raised it as an issue and it lead to a little bit of a discussion about their behavior (but no actions were taken against them by the church council). And my brother was attached to both of them and liked them a great deal, whereas he saw the woman as just a church busybody. At the time I sort of understood where she was coming from, even if I didn't care for her tone. The youth group leader's fiancee was a feminist and activist type, and while I appreciated both of them and thought they were decent people, I also recognized that their situation was not the best model for behavior for youth.

I think he's just been influenced a lot by the Dawkins or Hitchens type of atheism. That God and the Bible are silly and incoherent. He's actually not so opposed to religious rituals. He just doesn't understand how God fits into that. I think because he knows so many conservative Christians in his time and certain things like the extreme pietism is not something he likes. Perhaps because he associates it with that childhood experience.

He doesn't see the decency and kindness of people at my church the way I do. ELCA Lutherans are some of the least judgmental Christians I have ever met. But yet he finds that offensive and lazy? I don't get it. Maybe he just likes to argue. I ended our conversation just by telling him, that's not a good thing to do.

Maybe I should ask him some time if he wants to talk to my pastor or go to church, but otherwise I'm not going to hang out with him if he keeps berating the people I love. This is the second time we've had this kind of conversation. The first time he told me a few weeks ago that it was sick to see anything sacred in Jesus suffering, and that Mother Theresa was a hypocrite.
 
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I'll look into that link, though I'm left wondering exactly how my brother could have found Methodism hurtful. Dr. Rosenblatt seems to be dealing with victims of fundamentalist burnout.

The only thing I can think of, one time our church youth group leaders were living together before marriage and an older woman at church raised it as an issue and it lead to a little bit of a discussion about their behavior (but no actions were taken against them by the church council). And my brother was attached to both of them and liked them a great deal, whereas he saw the woman as just a church busybody. At the time I sort of understood where she was coming from, even if I didn't care for her tone. The youth group leader's fiancee was a feminist and activist type, and while I appreciated both of them and thought they were decent people, I also recognized that their situation was not the best model for behavior for youth.

I think he's just been influenced a lot by the Dawkins or Hitchens type of atheism. That God and the Bible are silly and incoherent. He's actually not so opposed to religious rituals. He just doesn't understand how God fits into that. I think because he knows so many conservative Christians in his time and certain things like the extreme pietism is not something he likes. Perhaps because he associates it with that childhood experience.

He doesn't see the decency and kindness of people at my church the way I do. ELCA Lutherans are some of the least judgmental Christians I have ever met. But yet he finds that offensive and lazy? I don't get it. Maybe he just likes to argue. I ended our conversation just by telling him, that's not a good thing to do.

Maybe I should ask him some time if he wants to talk to my pastor or go to church, but otherwise I'm not going to hang out with him if he keeps berating the people I love. This is the second time we've had this kind of conversation. The first time he told me a few weeks ago that it was sick to see anything sacred in Jesus suffering, and that Mother Theresa was a hypocrite.
It's curious to me how agnostics or atheists can be so judgmental when philosophically it shouldn't matter to them what anyone else believes.
 
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FireDragon76

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It's curious to me how agnostics or atheists can be so judgmental when philosophically it shouldn't matter to them what anyone else believes.

Yeah. There's a testimonial video by David Woods that would be relevant. He was an atheist until his late 20's, he was in jail for trying to kill his own dad with a hammer. If God doesn't exist, why not just do whatever you want? Most atheists don't think like that, they are too afraid to go there. But we get the half-hearted atheism that wants to have their cake and eat it too. "Good without God". I think Nietzsche should be rolling around in his grave every time somebody says that, they clearly did not get his message.
 
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Kit Sigmon

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Yesterday my brother just confronted me after church with something rude. He started asking questions about our church, in a way that was attacking the character of the people there and telling me "your church is obviously failing to be relevant to young people".

It really made me upset. He is irreligious, and the things he said were very hurtful.

First, I pointed out that yes, we do have young people at our church, but older people often attend on wednedays during Lent. Then he asked why we only have additional services during Lent, and we pointed out that the additional expense of keeping the doors open all the time couldn't be justified given Florida's climate. Then he started attacking the "business" of our church, that obviously we were not making money like a real business, that the people were just lazy Christians (which I found extremely hurtful).

Then, I told him that was my religion and I didn't think it was a good idea to discuss those issue in that manner because he obviously did not understand what we believe, and the very good reasons we do what we do. That he did not understand our ways, it would be spiritual confusion and cheapening grace to run our church in the way he suggested. That it was God's job to draw people to the church ultimately (this bit really bothered me because I knew hew would not understand this, but that's the exact way I became part of the church- people do show up as guests without having to have external inducements or manipulation). Then he said, well, you all are obviously failing then (at this point I became completely frustrated).

On reflecting on this, it seems like he just is being a troll at times. I confronted him about it, but he acted like he was doing me a favor in engaging in such a confrontational conversation. Which just seems like something a sick mind says. So, it bothered me a great deal.

Maybe your brother is there to "sharpen you?"....Iron sharpens iron...Proverbs 27:17.

It be true that the Holy Spirit of God draws(John 6:44), it is also true that the Lord "commissioned" us believers to share the good news of the gospel(chapter 10 of Romans, John 17:9-26)); to show agape/mercy...Micah 6:8, to love our neighbor,visit the sick/shut ins/visit those in prison, take care of widows/orphans etc...James 1:27, Matthew 25:36-45.

 
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All4Christ

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Praying for you! I've experienced some similar things with other family members and I know it is tough!

Father told me once that when things like this happen, we should pray for the other person (especially while we are upset). When we feel like we can't forgive, pray that God helps us forgive - and that God forgives that person.

Continued prayers and I will try to write more soon!
 
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