My bakery, my choice!

[compassion 4 humanity]

If some feminist with a chip on her shoulder said, "it's my body, my choice," referring to her supposed "right" to kill her unborn baby, practically every liberal would agree with her. Meanwhile, if a Christian baker is asked to bake a cake for a sodomite wedding and he refuses and says, "Well, it's my bakery, my choice," no liberal would agree with him. Funny how leftists value choice when it suits their agenda, but they scoff at a Christian baker's choice to reject a sinful same-sex couple for wanting a sodomite wedding cake.

 

[Zoii]

If some feminist with a chip on her shoulder said, "it's my body, my choice," referring to her supposed "right" to kill her unborn baby, practically every liberal would agree with her. Meanwhile, if a Christian baker is asked to bake a cake for a sodomite wedding and he refuses and says, "Well, it's my bakery, my choice," no liberal would agree with him. Funny how leftists value choice when it suits their agenda, but they scoff at a Christian baker's choice to reject a sinful same-sex couple for wanting a sodomite wedding cake.

The main difference is that as a baker you're breaking the law so you should take it up with legislators instead of being yet another person wanting to incite an american political argument between dems and repubs. Dont you guys ever tire of it?

 

[Sabertooth]

The main difference is that as a baker you're breaking the law so you should take it up with legislators instead of being yet another person wanting to incite an american political argument between dems and repubs.

Not true. No USA business is obligated to enter into a contractual agreement that they don't like, for any reason (not just sexual orientation). If the couple is hetero and the baker just doesn't like them, s/he can refuse to enter into a contract to bake them a custom cake.

(I'm not sure they can refuse to sell them an existing cake.)

 

[FenderTL5]

from a political standpoint, I understand the point.
From Christian standpoint, neither the body nor the bakery is "your own".

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I'm pro-do-whatever-i-want as a baker. And yes I am an actual baker with my own home business. Its like going to a muslim owned sandwich place and telling them you will sue if they don't serve you pork. Despite the fact they cannot even touch pork (if I understand right). People have certain views that they MUST obey if they are religious. Granted I don't like saying the word "religion" or "religious" because it implies all religions are equal. Granted christianity isn't a "religion" in my mind, its far more.

 

[Zoii]

Not true. No USA business is obligated to enter into a contractual agreement that they don't like, for any reason (not just sexual orientation). If the couple is hetero and the baker just doesn't like them, s/he can refuse to enter into a contract to bake them a custom cake.

(I'm not sure they can refuse to sell them an existing cake.)

If thats the law of your land then theres no debate or topic to discuss. You did have a civil court proceeding over this case, which i understood was not sucessful for the baker. But regardless. Its not about the analogy provided in the OP which was intended to be divisive in a country that is already extremely politically divided. My response to this example is that we are all required to follow the law. If it permits abortion then so be it, and you have the right to lobby politicians to repeal it based on the grounds of christian ethics. Likewise if its true that you can refuse a customer for whatever reason...eg youre black so get out... then so be it. but I doubt that is accurate (or at least I hope it is) and it might be worth checking your legislation on that matter

 

[Zoii]

I'm pro-do-whatever-i-want as a baker. And yes I am an actual baker with my own home business. Its like going to a muslim owned sandwich place and telling them you will sue if they don't serve you pork. Despite the fact they cannot even touch pork (if I understand right). People have certain views that they MUST obey if they are religious. Granted I don't like saying the word "religion" or "religious" because it implies all religions are equal. Granted christianity isn't a "religion" in my mind, its far more.

Youd probably be upset though if he said " your christian so im not serving you infidel"

 

[FenderTL5]

..Its like going to a muslim owned sandwich place and telling them you will sue if they don't serve you pork. Despite the fact they cannot even touch pork..

It's nothing like that.
You can't go to McDonalds and demand they serve you lasagna, it's not what they do and it's not on the menu. A sandwich shop owned by Muslims is not likely to have pork products, It won't be on the menu nor served to anyone.
In the baker's case, he makes cakes and they are on the "menu".

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Youd probably be upset though if he said " your christian so im not serving you infidel"

Not really. If I want my views to be respected, then I will respect someone elses. Even if I don't agree. If a muslim declined to serve me because I am christian then thats fine. Its not like there is only one sandwich shop in my area.

It's nothing like that.
You can't go to McDonalds and demand they serve you lasagna, it's not what they do and it's not on the menu. A sandwich shop owned by Muslims is not likely to have pork products, It won't be on the menu nor served to anyone.
In the baker's case, he makes cakes and they are on the "menu".

Eh. I've heard every reason about why a baker must serve everyone and it doesn't really matter to me. I'm set in my belief that I can refuse a couple if I want to. If it costs me money and my business then thats ok. God said we would be hated. And I also remember that the bible said many when confronted with hard choices would rather deny God then to stand for Him.

 

[Zoii]

Not really. If I want my views to be respected, then I will respect someone elses. Even if I don't agree. If a muslim declined to serve me because I am christian then thats fine.

So you respect when public schools reject christian lessons and youd be ok with shops having a sign "no christians allowed" . I doubt that very much n the first time it happened itd be plastered across this site

 

[PloverWing]

Truthfully, I'm torn on this question, because it's a conflict between two important principles: Gay people shouldn't be discriminated against, and religious people shouldn't be forced to violate their religion.

In this case, a cake is a pretty trivial thing, and most towns have lots of bakeries. If one bakery refuses to serve you because you're gay, then take your business to the next bakery down the street. If they all refuse to serve you, then maybe you bake your own cake. But it's just a cake; nobody starves, or dies. With this in mind, I voted to allow the baker to refuse to serve the gay couple.

If it were a different kind of business, I'd have voted differently. A hospital, for example, shouldn't have the right to turn away patients because they're gay. That's a much more vital kind of service.

I'm also taking for granted that there are other bakeries in town that can serve the couple. It's not that long ago that entire categories of businesses routinely refused to serve African-Americans. I don't want to see us return to that culture, with "gay" in place of "African-American". So, it's with reluctance that I cast my vote.

 

[DW1980]

If some feminist with a chip on her shoulder said, "it's my body, my choice," referring to her supposed "right" to kill her unborn baby, practically every liberal would agree with her. Meanwhile, if a Christian baker is asked to bake a cake for a sodomite wedding and he refuses and says, "Well, it's my bakery, my choice," no liberal would agree with him. Funny how leftists value choice when it suits their agenda, but they scoff at a Christian baker's choice to reject a sinful same-sex couple for wanting a sodomite wedding cake.

This is what I said elsewhere: there are two issues here. One is legal, the other theological.

Where I live the courts have ruled that a baker cannot discriminate against gay couples. The law is clear. As a Christian, you would need to decide if this then is an occupation you can be in, knowing you may have to make such a cake. Christians take different views on this, so for you this would be a matter of conscience. That would be informed by your theological understanding.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

So you respect when public schools reject christian lessons and youd be ok with shops having a sign "no christians allowed" . I doubt that very much n the first time it happened itd be plastered across this site

Well obviously I am not happy about what kids learn in school today. However not much I can do about it except reeducate my kids (when I have some). If someone put up said signs at a shop I'd be fine with it too. Since it means we have a right to deny people, then its only fair that people could deny us too. Granted they should only be able to deny people based on religious reasons. But if it came to anyone can deny anyone for any reason no questions asked. I'm ok with that too.

Suffering is what we do as christians in this world. Though if some on this site would criticize a signed that say no christian, I'd call them hypocrites if they are fine with denying LGBT a cake. While it would be great if the planet ran by christian rules, its not. So when we ask for rules, it means we would also have to accept others rules too.

And from what I understand when the anti-christ is around, it will practically be a sort of nazi type deal where we may very well have to deal with signs that say such things.

 

[FenderTL5]

Not really. If I want my views to be respected, then I will respect someone elses. Even if I don't agree. If a muslim declined to serve me because I am christian then thats fine. Its not like there is only one sandwich shop in my area.

Eh. I've heard every reason about why a baker must serve everyone and it doesn't really matter to me. I'm set in my belief that I can refuse a couple if I want to. If it costs me money and my business then thats ok. God said we would be hated. And I also remember that the bible said many when confronted with hard choices would rather deny God then to stand for Him.

Fair enough. The only additional thought I would add is to say, make sure that you are being hated for Christ's sake/cause and not your own political stance.

 

[Sabertooth]

Placing this thread in the SJM sub-forum is a de facto slight to the baker's position. Shouldn't it be in the Philosophy & Ethics sub-forum?

Paul wrote in Romans 1:28-32,

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,...; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

While it is inappropriate to respond with violence, generally, we are still expected to take the position of disapproval. Selling a cake that is already on the shelf doesn't constitute such approval, but agreeing to make one custom does.

 

[RadiantGrace]

If some feminist with a chip on her shoulder said, "it's my body, my choice," referring to her supposed "right" to kill her unborn baby, practically every liberal would agree with her. Meanwhile, if a Christian baker is asked to bake a cake for a sodomite wedding and he refuses and says, "Well, it's my bakery, my choice," no liberal would agree with him. Funny how leftists value choice when it suits their agenda, but they scoff at a Christian baker's choice to reject a sinful same-sex couple for wanting a sodomite wedding cake.

If we want to be fair...

A woman cannot go to her doctor and demand she perform an abortion.

A woman cannot go to an artist and demand he produce something contrary to his values or beliefs. A gubernatorial candidate cannot compel someone to make posters or write songs for a campaign.

A woman can go to Subway and demand they make sandwiches for her lesbian wedding.

A woman can go to a bakery and purchase a pre-made or standard wedding cake.

A woman cannot go to a baker and demand they design a cake for her lesbian wedding.

------
A gay couple went to a bakery and demanded a cake be designed for them. The baker declined, did not make a referral (which was stupid), but took the legal route of offering any pre-made standard cakes available. He did not refuse to sell them a freakin' cake.

It is sad this has gone to the Supreme Court.

 

[william23]

the public realm is secular, so just make the cake, take the money, and get on with your life.

 

[SaintCody777]

Fair enough. The only additional thought I would add is to say, make sure that you are being hated for Christ's sake/cause and not your own political stance.

Great point! If you're hated by many people in this world because of your belief in Christ, it's probably a sign that you're really right with God. John 15:18-21