My Apple Challenge

[AV1611VET]

If an apple is created ex nihilo, what scientific evidence could be garnered to support this fact?

In my opinion: none.

 

[Belk]

If an apple is created ex nihilo, what scientific evidence could be garnered to support this fact?

In my opinion: none.

In my opinion: Lots.

well, that was a fruitful discussion on a hypothetical situation.

 

[HitchSlap]

We have lots of reasons to think this is impossible.

 

[46AND2]

If an apple is created ex nihilo, what scientific evidence could be garnered to support this fact?

In my opinion: none.

Was the event of the apple creation observed with any potentially necessary test equipment, or are we required to try to support it after it already happened?

 

[loktai]

Test situation:

A large room is created, and turned into a vacuum. There are an array of sensors directed at the room constantly monitoring it at a sub-atomic level.

When the apple pops into existence, then we would expect to see energy being expended within this vaccum to give form to this apple. We can use the sensors to detect this energy and try and trace/explain where it came from, what is the phenomena that caused it - or lack of one. Undoubtedly it would ask serious questions about our current understaning of physics, along with the laws of thermodynamics.

However as it's a hypothetical situation, then that doesn't really matter. But in answer to your question, there is a way that you could gather scientific evidence to support or refute the idea that it was ex-nihlo.

 

[AV1611VET]

Was the event of the apple creation observed with any potentially necessary test equipment, or are we required to try to support it after it already happened?

After the fact ... but I'm curious: what type of test equipment did you have in mind?

 

[AV1611VET]

A large room is created, and turned into a vacuum. There are an array of sensors directed at the room constantly monitoring it at a sub-atomic level.

This is assuming you are foretold of the apple's soon appearance, I take it?

When the apple pops into existence, then we would expect to see energy being expended within this vaccum to give form to this apple.

How can you create a true vacuum, i.e. devoid of energy as well as mass?

We can use the sensors to detect this energy and try and trace/explain where it came from, what is the phenomena that caused it - or lack of one. Undoubtedly it would ask serious questions about our current understaning of physics, along with the laws of thermodynamics.

When the apple does make its appearance, I contend you would not be able to differentiate between ex nihilo and ex materia.

I love your reference to thermodynamics, as indeed, ex nihilo would require the amount of mass/energy in the universe to increase to accommodate the apple.

And I believe your education in the laws of thermodynamics would cause you to automatically rule out ex nihilo, in favor of ex materia.

However as it's a hypothetical situation, then that doesn't really matter. But in answer to your question, there is a way that you could gather scientific evidence to support or refute the idea that it was ex-nihlo.

I disagree.

 

[46AND2]

After the fact ... but I'm curious: what type of test equipment did you have in mind?

How did I know that would be your answer?

Something akin to the LHC to try and rule out a Higgs field, or other such quantum particle phenomena.

 

[46AND2]

Something akin to the LHC to try and rule out a Higgs field, or other such quantum particle phenomena.

Though this would not be proof...you did not ask for proof, you asked for evidence. By eliminating such possibilities in this kind of test, it increases the probability that the apple was, in fact, created ex nihilo.

Although I am not aware of what tests could be performed 'after the fact,' I suspect that scientists much more intelligent than I could come up with some that would at least marginally increase the odds of said creation.

 

[CabVet]

If an apple is created ex nihilo, what scientific evidence could be garnered to support this fact?

In my opinion: none.

You are absolutely correct AV, 100% correct. If the earth was created ex-nihilo there would be no evidence either. And I would even actually believe in an ex-nihilo creation if the earth was 6,000 years old, and if there was no fossil record, and if there was no evidence for common ancestry.

The evidence for an old earth combined with the clarity of the fossil record leaves no room for a 6,000 year old earth, unless God somehow decided to play this joke on everyone and created an earth with "embedded history". But of course, the question becomes, why would He ever do that?

My question to you: if the apple was created ex-nihilo, would you expect to find apple maggots inside of it? Say that you found an apple along with a book that said "this apple was created ex-nihilo 10 seconds ago", and then we opened the apple and found something like this:

Would you still say that the apple was created 10 seconds ago?

 

[AV1611VET]

You are absolutely correct AV, 100% correct. If the earth was created ex-nihilo there would be no evidence either. And I would even actually believe in an ex-nihilo creation if the earth was 6,000 years old, and if there was no fossil record, and if there was no evidence for common ancestry.

The evidence for an old earth combined with the clarity of the fossil record leaves no room for a 6,000 year old earth, unless God somehow decided to play this joke on everyone and created an earth with "embedded history". But of course, the question becomes, why would He ever do that?

My question to you: if the apple was created ex-nihilo, would you expect to find apple maggots inside of it? Say that you found an apple along with a book that said "this apple was created ex-nihilo 10 seconds ago", and then we opened the apple and found something like this:



Would you still say that the apple was created 10 seconds ago?

Cab, this thread is about scientific evidence for creatio ex nihilo in general.

One example should be sufficient enough.

Let's not complicate the issue with another example, a book that says when it was created, etc.

Let's just kiss* and use my example, eh?

* keep it super simple

 

[CabVet]

Cab, this thread is about scientific evidence for creatio ex nihilo in general.

One example should be sufficient enough.

Let's not complicate the issue with another example, a book that says when it was created, etc.

Let's just kiss* and use my example, eh?

* keep it super simple

Haha, keeping it simple then, no, such creation would leave no evidence.

 

[AV1611VET]

Haha, keeping it simple then, no, such creation would leave no evidence.

I knew we could kiss and agree!

 

[Split Rock]

If an apple is created ex nihilo, what scientific evidence could be garnered to support this fact?

In my opinion: none.

Shouldn't this be titled, "Son of the Return of My Apple challenge XII?"

 

[Delphiki]

Here's a question for AV:

How can an apple be created ex nihilo? If God creates only an apple, the apple is created from God, and therefore not created ex nihilo. I wouldn't think, that as a believer, you would believe in creation ex nihilo.

 

[Loudmouth]

If an apple is created ex nihilo, what scientific evidence could be garnered to support this fact?

In my opinion: none.

What would be inconsistent with being created ex nihilo? Would the ex nihilo apple have scars from birds pecking at it even though no bird ever pecked at it? Would the ex nihilo apple have remnants of flower petals at it's base, even though it was never a flower? Would the apple have holes in it from worms that never burrowed?

 

[AV1611VET]

Here's a question for AV:

How can an apple be created ex nihilo? If God creates only an apple, the apple is created from God, and therefore not created ex nihilo. I wouldn't think, that as a believer, you would believe in creation ex nihilo.

You're confusing creatio ex nihilo with creatio ex deo.

 

[AV1611VET]

Would the ex nihilo apple have scars from birds pecking at it even though no bird ever pecked at it? Would the ex nihilo apple have remnants of flower petals at it's base, even though it was never a flower? Would the apple have holes in it from worms that never burrowed?

Does it matter?

Let's say the apple is orange in color, squirts grape juice, has a MADE IN JAPAN static sticker on it, and when you bite into it, it tastes like a banana?

(I'm being facetious, of course, to make my point.)

 

[CabVet]

Does it matter?

Let's say the apple is orange in color, squirts grape juice, has a MADE IN JAPAN static sticker on it, and when you bite into it, it tastes like a banana?

(I'm being facetious, of course, to make my point.)

It does not matter, but it begs the question of why create it with a sticker that says MADE IN JAPAN. For some that question does not matter, but for many it does.

 

[46AND2]

It does not matter, but it begs the question of why create it with a sticker that says MADE IN JAPAN. For some that question does not matter, but for many it does.

Exactly!

Hence my point, AV, about a deceptive God.