must the host be willing in order to get a demon cast out?

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Presbyterian Continuist

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Psalms can be Holy Spirit led prayers. Nothing wrong with using them. Clearly they were Spirit led when they were written, but that doesn't automatically make them Spirit led when they are read.
Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Psalms are a living book, and when they are read aloud, they are the living word that generates faith in us.
 
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topher694

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Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Psalms are a living book, and when they are read aloud, they are the living word that generates faith in us.
Not the point. Genesis is a living book as well, but if I read "look, my brother Esau is a hairy man" chances are folks aren't getting delivered. Point is deliverance is much more effective with the Holy Spirit guiding you, and that should be the starting point, not that Psalms or any other scripture is bad in any way.
 
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Not the point. Genesis is a living book as well, but if I read "look, my brother Esau is a hairy man" chances are folks aren't getting delivered. Point is deliverance is much more effective with the Holy Spirit guiding you, and that should be the starting point, not that Psalms or any other scripture is bad in any way.
So, you don't read the Bible much just for the pleasure of sitting down and reading it like a novel. I did that recently and read it from Genesis to Revelation. I just read it through, but one thing after another popped out of the pages at me which I had never seen before, and I had been reading and studying the Bible for the last 50 years.

God speaks through the Bible when you have a programme of reading as much as you can every day. It is not a matter of reading a couple of set chapters just to do your duty, it is reading the Bible because you enjoy just reading it and seeing what you get out of it. You might read 100 pages and get nothing special then on the 101st page, you get a fresh revelation which turns you upside down!

The Holy Spirit speaks through the Bible. He does not speak outside of the Bible. The Bible is God speaking to mankind, and the Holy Spirit makes what God wants you to know clear to you as you read.

When the Holy Spirit speaks to me, He always uses the printed Scriptures. Whenever I have a thought or an idea, He always backs it up with a written Scripture. I have written a number of ministry books, and the Holy Spirit has always given me Scriptural backup for every point that I have made in them.

If you are getting impressions, voices, thoughts purporting to be the Holy Spirit and they are not confirmed by the written Scriptures, then I would say that the thoughts have come from the world, flesh or the devil.
 
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RDKirk

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Psalms can be Holy Spirit led prayers. Nothing wrong with using them. Clearly they were Spirit led when they were written, but that doesn't automatically make them Spirit led when they are read.

Take two sets of words.

One set of words is, say, Psalm 23.

The other set of words is something that came out of your head.

There is a much greater likelihood that Psalm 23 is led by the Holy Spirit than anything you made up.

The OP is someone who is clearly not confident in what his own brain conceives. He's better off, then, starting with what the mind of God has conceived.
 
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Francis Drake

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It wasn't logical argument that was directed at me. It was an interrogation, and the basis of interrogation is to manipulate through questioning.
Jesus's crystal clear command in Mark for believers to cast demons out leaves four responses, (no I added a fifth for your sake).
1). Reject it all together.
2). Cast demons out of non believers.
3). Cast demons out of believers.
4). Cast demons out of all who ask.
and
5). Pretend you didn't hear or didn't understand.

From the very start-
You tried to prove Christians can't have demons, and when that failed you threw every diversionary objection imaginable in the path of truth.

If you don't want an incisive response, then feel free to stop arguing with me and just go your way.
 
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Hillsage

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Sorry, I guess I balked at your terminology. Cloth ears moi! :sleep:
Thank you brother for receiving all I said as graciously as you did.This is a grey area in the church because the bible is so silent. Most of what is known has been from those who've been led by the Spirit, who is still 'leading and guide us into the truth'. Are there errors because of this? Of course IMO. But if my theology is wrong and yet someone gets FREE and free indeed....do they care if my deliverance doctrine isn't in a religious box as tight as the dead church they go to?

Ouch.
Having done similar alongside driving them out, I understand better what you meant.
It sounded a little too close to the "counselling demons out" approach.
We are totally on the same page. I don't believe you can 'counsel' demons out, they just hide deeper within the "stronghold" of thoughts in your soul that they built one temptation/sin at a time. As I said earlier, I think a lot of 'counseling' is simply teaching people 'behavior modification' to keep one 'looking' free while the demon still 'smotes (them) in the hinderparts'. :sigh: That's why you have to keep coming back and coming back to get your 'temporary fix' counselor pep talk.
 
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topher694

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So, you don't read the Bible much just for the pleasure of sitting down and reading it like a novel. I did that recently and read it from Genesis to Revelation. I just read it through, but one thing after another popped out of the pages at me which I had never seen before, and I had been reading and studying the Bible for the last 50 years.

God speaks through the Bible when you have a programme of reading as much as you can every day. It is not a matter of reading a couple of set chapters just to do your duty, it is reading the Bible because you enjoy just reading it and seeing what you get out of it. You might read 100 pages and get nothing special then on the 101st page, you get a fresh revelation which turns you upside down!

The Holy Spirit speaks through the Bible. He does not speak outside of the Bible. The Bible is God speaking to mankind, and the Holy Spirit makes what God wants you to know clear to you as you read.

When the Holy Spirit speaks to me, He always uses the printed Scriptures. Whenever I have a thought or an idea, He always backs it up with a written Scripture. I have written a number of ministry books, and the Holy Spirit has always given me Scriptural backup for every point that I have made in them.

If you are getting impressions, voices, thoughts purporting to be the Holy Spirit and they are not confirmed by the written Scriptures, then I would say that the thoughts have come from the world, flesh or the devil.

Take two sets of words.

One set of words is, say, Psalm 23.

The other set of words is something that came out of your head.

There is a much greater likelihood that Psalm 23 is led by the Holy Spirit than anything you made up.

The OP is someone who is clearly not confident in what his own brain conceives. He's better off, then, starting with what the mind of God has conceived.

Oh. My. Goodness.
The context is deliverance NOT leisure reading. I'm not going to tell someone who has come for inner healing deliverance, "hold on while I do some pleasure reading and see if I get anything for you". If a prayer is lead by the Holy Spirit it will ALWAYS line up with scripture.

All I said was I find Holy Spirit led prayer (which can include scripture) the most effective and you have both turned it into something else entirely, and made it a negative thing to argue about.

Here is a scripture for you that does apply, Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
 
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Francis Drake

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Thank you brother for receiving all I said as graciously as you did.This is a grey area in the church because the bible is so silent. Most of what is known has been from those who've been led by the Spirit, who is still 'leading and guide us into the truth'. Are there errors because of this? Of course IMO. But if my theology is wrong and yet someone gets FREE and free indeed....do they care if my deliverance doctrine isn't in a religious box as tight as the dead church they go to?


We are totally on the same page. I don't believe you can 'counsel' demons out, they just hide deeper within the "stronghold" of thoughts in your soul that they built one temptation/sin at a time. As I said earlier, I think a lot of 'counseling' is simply teaching people 'behavior modification' to keep one 'looking' free while the demon still 'smotes (them) in the hinderparts'. :sigh: That's why you have to keep coming back and coming back to get your 'temporary fix' counselor pep talk.
Many decades ago my son (then 6) and daughter(then 4) were watching TV, an old English classic called the Railway Children.
We had the books as most families did and they were quite inoffensive.

This particular story, at the very end of the episode had one of the children trapped on the railway line with a the steam train rapidly approaching.
As often the case, the camera kept flashing between the panicking child and the train rushing closer and closer, the beat of the music keeping up with the engine's pistons. All done in order to build tension to the climax, ............then suddenly the picture stops with "see what happens in next week's episode!"

Then my daughter started having nightmares waking up in terror. We knew the whole thing was demonic, but couldn't get to the root. (I have to say we were still a little naïve back then.)
Next week, as the following episode of the story appeared, she ran from the room and hid. It finally dawned on us what had happened.

My wife brought her back in the room and with much struggling and screaming, forced her head to face the TV.
And of course the train stopped well short of the trapped child and she was rescued.
My daughter instantly stopped struggling and crying and settled down to watch the rest of the story.

This is a good illustration of how demons can enter, riding in on the back of natural fear, and turning it into demonic fear.
My daughter hadn't been able to express what the terror was about, but she had obviously been replaying the story in her head. And undoubtedly demons had been reminding her of it on a nightly basis.

If such things are not addressed, then eventually that demons gets to stay and take up residence. Demonisation isn't always instantaneous, but can take place gradually as they insinuate themselves into a person's life, in this case my daughter.

By changing the narrative, she was no longer attentive to the demonic lies being whispered to her nightly.

People need to be aware that demons gain entry when we take heed of their tiny whispers. As we respond, they whisper further and so on. We think its our own imagination at work, but often its demons trying to make recruits.

That's why we need to take every thought captive and obedient to Christ.
 
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Hillsage

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This is really the subject for another thread (or messaging), and given the obsession with hierarchy for most Christians I suspect I'd get hammered.
I hear you, I'll just drop it.

These are not hierarchical positions.

Again, these are functions, not hierarchical command positions.

1Cor11v3But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
This is quite clear. There is only one head and that is Christ himself.
4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head.
If in a gathering, as is frequently taught, a man can only speak, pray, prophecy etc. if his pastor grants permission, then he has placed that pastor over his head.
In doing so, he immediately dishonours his true head, Christ.
These scriptures refer to a 'spirit of Christ' activity IMO. And not a Holy Spirit gifting activity.

The holy spirit of Christ in you is the spiritual head of your body. The Lord Jesus Christ himself is head of His corporate "many membered body of Christ". And it has hierarchical command positions...I think. Not sure where this term you mention of "Hierarchial positions" comes from scripturally. Humm a few more bars and maybe I'll 'catch the tune'. :D
 
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I know there was a girl who chased after Paul, and she had a spirit, and annoyed him so much that he cast the spirit out of her. but I think that was on his faith, not hers. also, Judas was entered by satan. could the disciples cast it out of Judas? or would Judas have had to be willing and have faith? also, Judas had power over demons.

No, the person in whom a demon may dwell doesn't have to agree to its removal.
 
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Oh. My. Goodness.
The context is deliverance NOT leisure reading. I'm not going to tell someone who has come for inner healing deliverance, "hold on while I do some pleasure reading and see if I get anything for you". If a prayer is lead by the Holy Spirit it will ALWAYS line up with scripture.

All I said was I find Holy Spirit led prayer (which can include scripture) the most effective and you have both turned it into something else entirely, and made it a negative thing to argue about.

Here is a scripture for you that does apply, Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Ok, so you don't read the Bible just for the pleasure of fellowshiping with God in it - just to read it through to see what God gives you on each page. I couldn't think of a better leisure activity than just sitting down and reading the Bible and allowing God to speak to me through it.

I reject the Scripture you used to apply to me. It is a misquote, not from the Holy Spirit but from a manipulating spirit to intimidate me to believe what you are trying to tell me.
 
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topher694

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Ok, so you don't read the Bible just for the pleasure of fellowshiping with God in it - just to read it through to see what God gives you on each page. I couldn't think of a better leisure activity than just sitting down and reading the Bible and allowing God to speak to me through it.

I reject the Scripture you used to apply to me. It is a misquote, not from the Holy Spirit but from a manipulating spirit to intimidate me to believe what you are trying to tell me.

Dude, seriously KNOCK IT OFF. I said NO SUCH THING. You keep putting words in my mouth that are WILDLY out of context. Of course I read for leisure/pleasure. I simply don't while I'm in the middle of deliverance ministry. This is the perfect example of why the scripture I quoted DOES apply.
 
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Dude, seriously KNOCK IT OFF. I said NO SUCH THING. You keep putting words in my mouth that are WILDLY out of context. Of course I read for leisure/pleasure. I simply don't while I'm in the middle of deliverance ministry. This is the perfect example of why the scripture I quoted DOES apply.
Hey, stop kicking me and keep to the issues. When guys play soccer they kick the ball and not the other players. What I am saying is that general, consistent, regular reading of the Bible prepares a person called to the deliverance ministry. I am not so thick-headed as to advise that a person needing to be set free of a demon just needs to read the Bible! But for a person called to the deliverance ministry, he needs the regular reading of the Bible to give him the sensitivity and discernment from the Holy Spirit to know when and how to deal with demonized folk wisely and effectively in the Holy Spirit rather than the flesh.
 
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topher694

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Hey, stop kicking me and keep to the issues. When guys play soccer they kick the ball and not the other players. What I am saying is that general, consistent, regular reading of the Bible prepares a person called to the deliverance ministry. I am not so thick-headed as to advise that a person needing to be set free of a demon just needs to read the Bible! But for a person called to the deliverance ministry, he needs the regular reading of the Bible to give him the sensitivity and discernment from the Holy Spirit to know when and how to deal with demonized folk wisely and effectively in the Holy Spirit rather than the flesh.

I said absolutely nothing contrary to this and yet you have accused (KICKED) me of doing so.

Since that is your noble motivation whilst I just kick you, why don't you tell us how many deliverances you have done?
 
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I said absolutely nothing contrary to this and yet you have accused (KICKED) me of doing so.

Since that is your noble motivation whilst I just kick you, why don't you tell us how many deliverances you have done?
No one is accusing you of anything. Look, what I suggest you do is to get with God in your private prayer space and have an honest discussion with God about why you feel so resentful about the things I am saying. It's not a matter whether I am right or wrong. God will sort me out over that. I have been checking all this out by view sermon videos by Derek Prince and I am learning a a lot about demons are affecting the church and its people.

What I am respectfully advising you is to honestly ask God to show you what spirit you are of, and be prepared to receive an honest and direct answer from God. Now know this, just because we have differences of opinion, it doesn't mean that I believe you have a wrong spirit. That is not for me to say, but it is always good to get with God and check yourself out. I do it all the time, because I know how easy it is for a wrong spirit to sneak in and start influencing my thoughts and actions.
 
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topher694

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No one is accusing you of anything. Look, what I suggest you do is to get with God in your private prayer space and have an honest discussion with God about why you feel so resentful about the things I am saying. It's not a matter whether I am right or wrong. God will sort me out over that. I have been checking all this out by view sermon videos by Derek Prince and I am learning a a lot about demons are affecting the church and its people.

What I am respectfully advising you is to honestly ask God to show you what spirit you are of, and be prepared to receive an honest and direct answer from God. Now know this, just because we have differences of opinion, it doesn't mean that I believe you have a wrong spirit. That is not for me to say, but it is always good to get with God and check yourself out. I do it all the time, because I know how easy it is for a wrong spirit to sneak in and start influencing my thoughts and actions.

Ok, so you don't read the Bible just for the pleasure of fellowshiping with God in it
If that isn't an accusation, then I don't know what is.

I am well aware of examining myself and do it daily. I have very well known and well respected leaders speaking into my life.

What I have seen here from you has been judgmental, argumentative, accusational, and continually twisted the words of others as an excuse to do these things. There has been no examples of actual experience or fruit in this matter only arguments. So, why would I take advice from someone who exhibits that type of behavior? I mean this started with me saying, I find Holy Spirit led prayer to be most effective... that's it, yet you found a way to turn that into an issue that wasn't there.

I would respectfully advise that perhaps what you are seeing is actually projection of yourself, and you need to examine what spirit you are of.
 
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topher694

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What I am respectfully advising you is to honestly ask God to show you what spirit you are of, and be prepared to receive an honest and direct answer from God. Now know this, just because we have differences of opinion, it doesn't mean that I believe you have a wrong spirit. That is not for me to say, but it is always good to get with God and check yourself out. I do it all the time, because I know how easy it is for a wrong spirit to sneak in and start influencing my thoughts and actions.

You know what. You are right. I need to take some time to talk with God and examine some things. Specifically if I should just ignore your comments, or walk away from this site altogether. Because right now exchanges like this seem like a colossal waste of time and energy on so many levels.
 
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If that isn't an accusation, then I don't know what is.

I am well aware of examining myself and do it daily. I have very well known and well respected leaders speaking into my life.

What I have seen here from you has been judgmental, argumentative, accusational, and continually twisted the words of others as an excuse to do these things. There has been no examples of actual experience or fruit in this matter only arguments. So, why would I take advice from someone who exhibits that type of behavior? I mean this started with me saying, I find Holy Spirit led prayer to be most effective... that's it, yet you found a way to turn that into an issue that wasn't there.

I would respectfully advise that perhaps what you are seeing is actually projection of yourself, and you need to examine what spirit you are of.
I think that these comments are getting away from the topic of the thread and is developing into a two-horse debate that does not deal with the issues that the OP has posted.
 
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