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Muslims: Surah 9:30

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by GeorgeTwo, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    One being in three persons; the Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Father, etc.
     
  2. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    You cannot read Jesus AS A MAN back into the Old Testament; It is via God's Word that the earth was created. The Word became flesh.
     
  3. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    God creates via His Word.

    Similar to your Allah saying "be" and it was.

    Being with God means intimate personal relationship.
     
  4. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    God's Word is not a separate God.
     
  5. GeorgeTwo

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    The Word was with God, simply means the Word is distinct from God the Father, and God The Holy Spirit.

    Theos can refer to God the Father, God The Son, or God The Holy Spirit.
     
  6. GeorgeTwo

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    The Word was with God, simply means the Word is distinct from God the Father, and God The Holy Spirit.

    Theos can refer to God the Father, God The Son, or God The Holy Spirit.
     
  7. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    How can God's Word and God's Spirit not be God?
     
  8. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    The Word was with God, simply means the Word is distinct from God the Father, and God The Holy Spirit.

    Theos can refer to God the Father, God The Son, or God The Holy Spirit.
     
  9. 4x4toy

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    And you can't separate God from his Word even when it became flesh .
     
  10. GeorgeTwo

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    Yes, God's Spirit and His Word are one Being who is God.

    And God came to man via Jesus Christ, which does not harm to His majesty.

    OK.

    Look at the qualifiers: "that he should repent, etc. This does not mean God cannot incarnate man.

    God is not a man; God is Spirit.

    God did not change; He has always been triune in nature.

    That is a quote from Apostle Paul and it's 1 Corinthians 14:33. What is the context?

    Of course, it can and has been, even to children.

    OK.

    God is not born of a woman, but His Word incarnated Jesus of Nazareth.

    All comes from the Father. The Father did not give that information to His son, at that time.

    We worship the God of Israel, the creator alone.
     
  11. GeorgeTwo

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    Cite the Scriptures and I will explain them to you.

    Jesus' disciples asked Jesus how they should pray; He did not say this is a prayer He prays.

    Jesus also said, who can convict me of sin?

    God is a multi-personal God:

    The Trinity: The Old Testament Evidence: A Multi-Personal God

    The context is speaking in tongues.

    Parents can teach little children about the Trinity and the incarnation when they start to ask questions and by keeping their answers on their level.

    Yes, when college aged children leave home, many leave Christianity, probably from out-side influence, but many come back when they are older when their understanding of Christianity improves.

    Muslims also leave their faith, some to Judaism, some to Christianity and some to atheism.

    God is omnipresent.

    All knowledge proceeds from the Father; it is the Father who sends His Son; the Son obeys and comes.

    Jesus as a man had limitations.

    After the resurrection of Christ it is said of Him that He knows all things (John 21:17) and that He is omnipresent (Matt. 28:20). Therefore, after His resurrection and glorification, the Lord Jesus did know all things.

    There is only one God and one God only.

    Your Allah had never heard of the incarnation proven because he said Jesus could not be God because Jesus had to eat food, proving that your Allah is not all-knowing, so your Allah is not the God of Israel, the Creator of all who is all-knowing.
     
  12. GeorgeTwo

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    Matthew 10:34, "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword, (35) For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in law; (36) and one's foes will be members of one's own household. (37) Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; (38) and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (39) Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.


    Jesus is talking to His disciples. He is saying that so great are the demands of discipleship that obedience leads to conflicts within one's family and opposition by one's own parents. Devotion to Jesus must take precedence over one's family obligations and affections. Verse 39, means that full conformity to God's will can be found only by those willing to give up their lives in order that they may find the authentic life God has intended for them to live.


    Though the ultimate end of the gospel is peace with God, the immediate result of the gospel is frequently conflict. Conversion to Christ can result in strained family relationships, persecution, and even martyrdom. Following Christ presupposes a willingness to endure such hardships. Though Jesus is called the "Prince of Peace," Christ will have no one deluded into thinking that He calls believers to a life devoid of all conflict.


    It is important to recognize that Jesus does not speak about "the sword," but about "a sword." Jesus is not a prophet of the sword. The sword of violence, force and war has no place in his message. The verses speak about the consequence of being obedient to the command of Jesus that we are to preach His message. Some will listen and accept it but many will reject it and react violently. The sword Jesus is talking about is the sword of division that God's word brings. The sword that Jesus brings is the sword that his followers have to suffer, a sword that is applied to them, not a sword that they wield against others.
     
  13. GeorgeTwo

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    You left a part of Mark 3 out:

    31 Then are outside asking for You.”

    33 He replied to them, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34 And looking about at those who were sitting in a circle around Him, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother.”

    Remember at that time Jesus mother and his brothers did not believe in Him.

    Jesus calling His mother was not disrespectful because in the original language, and in that culture, Mary would not have interpreted Jesus’ words that way. The term woman was used like we use the term ma’am.

    Jesus also called Mary "woman" at the cross when He asked John to care for her, thus honoring her.

    No, YOU don't know but WE do. Nothing was edited out of the NT.
     
  14. GeorgeTwo

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    You are assuming that when Jesus prayed it was the same prayer as He instructed the disciples to pray.

    Jesus was sinless.

     
  15. GeorgeTwo

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    The concept of the Trinity was revealed in the New Testament.

    The article I cited shows that God is a multi-personal God.

    Why would you appeal to the Jews? The Jews say that Jesus is not the Messiah, yet the Qur'an says He is. Perhaps the Jews got a lot of things wrong.
     
  16. GeorgeTwo

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    The Muratorian Canon:

    (9) The fourth of the Gospels is that of John, [one] of the disciples. (10) To his fellow disciples and bishops, who had been urging him [to write], (11) he said, 'Fast with me from today to three days, and what (12) will be revealed to each one (13) let us tell it to one another.' In the same night it was revealed (14) to Andrew, [one] of the apostles, (15-16) that John should write down all things in his own name while all of them should review it.

    English Translation from Bruce M. Metzger:
    www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html

    It is obvious that "we" is Andrew, etc.




    Sep 15 05 9:09 AM

    TAGS : None

    I don't know if you are up to this or not but I am having a discussion about the Gospel of John on a Christian site and a poster made a comment about the Muratorian Canon that I hadn't noticed before. Please take a look at this statement:

    (9) The fourth of the Gospels is that of John, [one] of the disciples. (10) To his fellow disciples and bishops, who had been urging him [to write], (11) he said, 'Fast with me from today to three days, and what (12) will be revealed to each one (13) let us tell it to one another.' In the same night it was revealed (14) to Andrew, [one] of the apostles, (15-16) that John should write down all things in his own name while all of them should review it.

    English Translation from Bruce M. Metzger:
    www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html


    Posts: 3792

    Sep 15 05 9:09 AM

    TAGS : None

    I don't know if you are up to this or not but I am having a discussion about the Gospel of John on a Christian site and a poster made a comment about the Muratorian Canon that I hadn't noticed before. Please take a look at this statement:

    (9) The fourth of the Gospels is that of John, [one] of the disciples. (10) To his fellow disciples and bishops, who had been urging him [to write], (11) he said, 'Fast with me from today to three days, and what (12) will be revealed to each one (13) let us tell it to one another.' In the same night it was revealed (14) to Andrew, [one] of the apostles, (15-16) that John should write down all things in his own name while all of them should review it.

    English Translation from Bruce M. Metzger:
    www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html



     
  17. GeorgeTwo

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    Read the whole of the New Testament.

    Colossians 1:16-17Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
    16 For everything was created by Him,
    in heaven and on earth,
    the visible and the invisible,
    whether thrones or dominions
    or rulers or authorities—
    all things have been created through Him and for Him.
    17 He is before all things,
    and by Him all things hold together.
     
  18. GeorgeTwo

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    You are forgetting that Jesus made claims for Himself that only God can make for Himself.
     
  19. GeorgeTwo

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    The Muratorian Fragment is a 8th century copy of a second century document.

    The claims of Jesus:

    Example 1.

    Jesus: "I am the good shepherd." John 10:11

    Yet, YHWH is the Shepherd.

    YHWH: " Psalm 23:1. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.



    Example 2.

    Jesus: Jesus claimed to be judge of all men and nations.

    John 5:27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

    Matthew 25 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left..

    Yet YHWH claims to be the judge.

    YHWH:

    Joel 3:
    12 "Let the nations be roused;
    let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
    for there I will sit
    to judge all the nations on every side.



    Example 3.

    Jesus: John 8: 12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.""I am the light of the world.

    Yet is is YHWH who is the light.

    YHWH:

    Isaiah 60: 19 The sun will no more be your light by day,
    nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
    for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
    and your God will be your glory.





    Example 4.

    Jesus described Himself as the coming bridegroom.

    Matthew 25: 1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

    Yet, YHWH is described as the bridegroom.

    YHWH:

    Isaiah 62: 5 As a young man marries a maiden,
    so will your sons [a] marry you;
    as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride,
    so will your God rejoice over you.

    Hosea 2: 16 "In that day," declares the LORD,
    "you will call me 'my husband';
    you will no longer call me 'my master.[a]'






    Example 5.

    Jesus: Revelation 1:17

    Revelation 1:17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

    Yet it is YHWH who is the First and the Last.

    YHWH:

    Isaiah 48: 12 "Listen to me, O Jacob,
    Israel, whom I have called:
    I am he;
    I am the first and I am the last.





    Example 6.

    Jesus: Jesus claimed to be the great I AM.

    John 8:58,"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

    Yet it is YHWH who is the Great I AM.

    YHWH: Exodus 3:14

    Exodus 3: 14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am .[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites:'I AM has sent me to you.' "

    Commentary by JPH of Tektonics.


    Matthew 11:27. "All things have been handed over to Me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

    In this verse, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God in an "exclusive and absolute sense," having a unique and personal relationship with the Father. It is helpful here to make a momentary digression into the Jewish conception of the father/son relationship. Being a son to a father required the following:

    · Obedience. The son was expected to be totally obedient to the father in all matters.(See Prov. 4:4.) In identifying Himself as God's Son, Jesus indicated that He was obliged to be in perfect obedience to the divine will. But what human could accomplish this? It would be the claim of one who was either a massive egotist, insane -- or truly divine.

    · Learning. A son was expected to learn the father's trade, his skills, and his experience. Jesus is therefore saying that he has taken up God's work and learned what He knows directly from God.




    Matthew 23:34. "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes..."

    In Jewish belief, it is God that is responsible for sending prophets. In saying that He will send prophets, Jesus is equating Himself with God - once again, assuming a role reserved for God alone.



    Mark 9:42. "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin..."

    Jesus is hereby endorsing Himself as an appropriate object of religious faith! This is thus a rather important clue as to deity (cf. Jer 17.5 "This is what the LORD says:'Cursed is the one who trusts in man.' ").



    Matthew 28:18; similar quotes in Luke 24:25, 46.

    In this post-resurrection address, Jesus says that all power in heaven and on earth has been given to Him - in short, power that only God has.



    Luke 12:8-9. "I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man shall confess him also before the angels of God: but he who denies me before men shall be denied before the angels of God."

    Here Jesus indicates that what men say about Him will be the focal point of their judgment.

    Certainly this directly implies some divine influence!



    Mt 25:17-46 This is the "sheep and the goats" judgment passage, where Jesus says of Himself, as Son of Man, that he "comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." These he will then judge and send on to their respective eternal destinies.

    Jesus claimed to be able to determine people's eternal destiny!



    Luke 21:14-15. "But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict."

    Notice that Jesus says he will give the words and wisdom.

    Yet in Matthew 10, it is the “Spirit of your Father” who will give the words to speak.

    19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

    And in Mark 13, it was the Holy Spirit.

    11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

    Notice the clear association between Jesus, the Spirit of your Father, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus shows his omnipresence (only God is omnipresent) to be there and his supernatural power to be able to do it.



    1 Kings 8:

    39. And You shall hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart You know, for You, ALONE, know the hearts of all the children of men.

    Jeremiah 17:

    10. I, the Lord, search the heart, test the kidneys, to give everyone according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.

    Notice how Solomon says, that God ALONE knows the hearts of all the children of men.

    Jeremiah says: I, The LORD search the heart, to give everyone according to his ways, according to his deeds.

    Now listen to what the Christ says in Revelation 2:

    23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Jesus is claiming the same attribute of Deity that God has in Jeremiah, to be able to search the reins and hearts of men, in order to give unto everyone according to their works.

    Solomon says that Only God knows the hearts of all the children of men..

    Jesus has clearly claimed to be God.



    Matthew 9:2; parallels in Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20 and 7:48. Jesus tells people that "their sins are forgiven."

    If John does something bad to Joe, then Joe can forgive John. Forgiveness requires the RIGHT to forgive; therefore, Jesus' forgiving the sins of others that He had no personal connection with indicates that He believed that He was the only One who was offended by all sins and therefore had the right to forgive them: God, the author of all moral law.

    Moreover, this is particularly a noteworthy claim in the context of Judaism. The faithful Jew acknowledged that only God can forgive the sinner." So in effect, Jesus was assuming the place and role of the entire Temple sacrificial system authorized by God and claiming to be God's broker for forgiveness.

    Notice the objection of the Jews:

    Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:6-7)

    Descriptions of God in the Old Testament used of Jesus in the New Testament

    1. The first and the last—Isaiah 41:4; 44,6; 48:12 / Revelation 2:8; 22:13
    2. I AM—Exodus 3:14 / John 8:58; John 13:19
    3. Author of eternal words—Isaiah. 40:8; Psalm 119:89 / Matthew 24:35; John 6:68
    4. Light—Psalm 27:1 / John 1:4-9; 8:12; 1 John 1:5
    5. Rock—Deuteronomy 32:31; Psalm 18:2; Isaiah 8:14; Psalm 92:15 / 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 Corinthians 10:4
    6. Bridegroom—Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16 / Mark 2:19; Revelation 21:2
    7. Shepherd—Psalm 23:1 / John 10:11; Hebrews 13:20
    8. Forgiver of sins—Jeremiah 31:34 / Acts 5:31
    9. Redeemer—Hosea 13:14; Psalm 130:7 / Titus 2:13,14; Revelation 5:9
    10. Savior—Isaiah 43:3; Hosea 13:4 / 2 Peter 1:1, 11; Titus 2:10-13; Acts 4:12 (cf., Titus 1, 3)
    11. The Lord of Glory—Isaiah 42:8 / John 17:1-5; 1 Corinthians 2:8
    12. Judge—Joel 3:12 / Matthew 25:31-46
    13. The Second Coming God—Zechariah 14:5 / Matthew 16:27; 24:29-31
    14. The First Coming God—Isaiah 40:3 / Matthew 3:3
    15. King of Glory—Psalm 24:7, 10 / 1 Corinthians 2:8; John 17:5
    16. Jehovah our righteousness—Jeremiah 23:5, 6 / 1 Corinthians 1:30
    17. Jehovah the first and last—Isaiah 44:6; 48:12-16 / Revelation 1:8, 17; 22:13
    18. Jehovah above all—Psalm 97:9 / John 3:31
    19. Jehovah’s fellow and equal—Zechariah 13:7 / Philippians 2:6
    20. The Lord Almighty—Isaiah 6:1-3; 8:13-14 / John 12:41; 1 Peter 2:8
    21. Jehovah—Psalm 110:1 / Matthew 22:42-45
    22. Jehovah the Shepherd—Isaiah 40:11 / Hebrews 13:20
    23. Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created—Proverbs 16:4 / Colossians 1:16
    24. Jehovah the messenger of the Covenant—Malachi 3:1 / Luke 7:27
    25. Invoked as Jehovah—Joel 2:32; Isaiah 45:22 / 1 Corinthians 1:2
    26. The eternal God and Creator—Psalm 102:24-27 / Hebrews 1:8, 10-12
    27. The great God and savior—Isaiah 43:11-12 / Titus 1:3-4; 2:10, 13; 3:4-6
    28. God the Judge—Ecclesiastes 12:14 / 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1
    29. Emmanuel—Isaiah 7:14 / Matthew 1:23[/
    30. The Holy One—1 Samuel 2:2 / Acts 3:14
    31. Lord of the Sabbath—Genesis 2:3 / Matthew 12:8
    32. Lord of All—1 Chronicles 29:11-12 / Acts 10:36; Romans 10:11-13
    33. Creator of all things—Isaiah 40:28; Psalm 148:1-5 / John 1:3; Colossians 1:16
    34. Supporter, preserver of all things—Nehemiah 9:6 / Colossians 1:17
    35. Stumbling rock of offense—Isaiah 8:13-14 / Romans 9:32-33; 1 Peter 2:8; Acts 4:11
    36. Confess that He is Lord—Isaiah 45:23 (Jehovah) / Philippians 2:11 (Jesus)
    37. The Judge of all men—Psalm 98:9 / Acts 17:31
    38. Raiser of the dead—1 Samuel 2:6; Psalm 119 (11 times) / John 11:25; 5:21 w/Luke 7:12-16
    39. Co-sender of the Holy Spirit—John 14:16 (The Father sends) / (Jesus sends) John 15:26
    40. Led captivity captive—Psalm 68:18 / Ephesians 4:7, 8
    41. Seen by Isaiah—Isaiah 6:1 / John 12:41
    42. Judge of the nations—Joel 3:12 / Matthew 25:31-41
    43. Salvation by calling on the name of the Lord—Joel 2:32 / Romans 10:13
     
  20. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Christians worship one God and one God only.
     
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