Muslims: Surah 9:30

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟32,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Surah 9:30

Literal
(Word by Word) And said the Jews, "Uzair (is) son (of) Allah." And said the Christians, "Messiah (is) son (of) Allah." That (is) their saying with their mouths, they imitate the saying (of) those who disbelieved before. (May) Allah destroy them. How deluded are they!

What is this verse saying? I know your Allah says he has no son, but in what sense does your Allah say that he has no son in this verse?

A son of God can be one who is close to God in relationship, but this verse seems to mean more than that in order for your Allah to say they who say that should be destroyed.

Thanks.
 

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Christians take Jesus pbuh to be 'The Son of GOD' 100% Divine, God from God. Allah swt is being very clear, He alone should be worshipped.

What Muslims don't seem to understand is that Christians do only worship one God.
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
One God in 3 separate persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit all distinct yet One God, each is 100% God by itself. The Son was born on Earth, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. When I explain this to my children, they say 'no dad, that's 3 Gods not 1'.

The concept of a trinity totally baffled me when I was in 8th grade. So much so that I took The Shahada and called myself a Muslim for about 15 years. The way I accept this concept now is like this: God is one God made up of The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit. the same with man we are one man but made up of a body a mind and a spirit a man is not a manif one of these parts is missing. Theologians will tell you it is not exactly the same but this is how my mind understands it
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Here is a wikipedia article on "Uzair" ( Uzair - Wikipedia ).

Apparently nobody knows for certain who is "Uzair" was that some Jews were idolizing as a son of God. If the Quran was inspired then I would expect that Allah or Gabriel would have a better knowledge of Judaism that that. Even if the Quran was written by fallible humans, I would expect the writers to know something about Judaism. Some historians think that Arabian Jews were a huge force in early Islam, so why would the Quran contain such a bizarre claim about Judaism?
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Supporter
May 10, 2011
10,484
3,582
Twin Cities
✟725,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Where does Jesus pbuh explain this to the Jews he was sent to?
He never used that analogy. Nobody has. That's why I said that theologists will tell you it is not explained that way. That is how I personally understand what is unknowable, for what human being can know the true inner nature or substance of an infinite being? Jesus said "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." This is one of the instances where the first Christians ascertained that Jesus was God's living son. You would likely give no credence to this statement because it is not contained within the Torah or Quran. Jesus also said:
"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin." Blasphemy is a sin reserved for God so I guess these quotes answer the question of WHere does Jesus mention the Trinity? The body, mind, spirit, reference like I said is my own perspective.
 
Upvote 0

frienden thalord

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2017
1,958
1,731
52
texas
✟59,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Where does Jesus pbuh explain this to the Jews he was sent to?
Where does muhammed explain to the people why he married a six year old and then consecrated it when she was nine.
might be a good question to ask as well.
 
Upvote 0

frienden thalord

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2017
1,958
1,731
52
texas
✟59,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
America , though was founded not by godly men. Some were. most were kind of new age .
Muhammed and JESUS were so opposite . I mean sure they both did say and teach some good works.
But JESUS taught man how to see the law. that we as men have no right to harm even our enemies nor act as JUDGE of the law.
meaning we have no right to stone or harm or kill sinners as the LAW stated. THAT really ONLY GOD has the RIGHT to JUDGE the law.
Christ taught us to love our enemies and do good and harm none.
Muhammad , well , we KNOW he was not like that. NOR did he take on the sins of the world for HIS ENEMIES so they could
be reconciled to GOD
Who we follow is where we end up. Follow JESUS , learn to go and do no evil and by grace you end up In the Father .
Muhammed , he cant claim he never sinned , nor did he give his life for his enemies. MAN cant save man , ONLY GOD can.
IMMANUEL , GOD WITH US. the WORD became flesh amen.
Many will find out on that day, the JESUS they rejected will reject them too.
FOR NOW , you have a chance. ALL have sinned. ALL. thus ALL need a savoir . AMEN COME TO CHRIST that you may have life.
fore its too late.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Uzair is said to be Ezra the scribe who comprehensively wrote the Torah following the Babylonian exile and then proceeded to teach the people on matters of Jewish Law and Community rules. He is considered to be the father of Judaism, so I find it unsurprising a group of Yemini Jews would regards him as being the son of God. Amongst the issues raised in various Hadiths by Jews, none makes mention of 9:30 being wrong.
The problem is that this is all speculation based on a presumption that the writer of the Quran couldn't have been misinformed about Judaism. I would feel better if "Uzair" and "Ezra" were closer phonetically. It seems like a real leap to imagine that some Jews somewhere must have worshiped Ezra because the Quran says they worshiped "Uzair".

Of course I don't believe the Quran is inspired by Allah, but I'm still puzzled by the apparent unfamiliarity with Judaism that this quote suggests. Many scholars think the Quran and Islam were created under one of the powerful caliphs after Muhammad had died (sorry I can't remember the caliph's name, but I'm sure you probably know the theory). Maybe by this time the Jews had been squeezed and marginalized to the point that whoever wrote the Quran could have made this mistake.

Seems like we need some evidence of these Uzair worshipers outside of this one verse in the Quran before we can believe it IMO

BTW, those were informative links. Thanks.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
^ @Muslim-UK , I didn't notice that there is a town in Iraq called Al-Uzayr where some believed Ezra had been buried. That probably does mean that "Uzair" = "Uzayr" = "Ezra".

But it would still be nice to have some evidence that Jews somewhere considered Ezra to be a divine "Son of God" as opposed to merely revering him in a way that outsiders might misunderstand.
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟32,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
One God in 3 separate persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit all distinct yet One God, each is 100% God by itself. The Son was born on Earth, not the Father or the Holy Spirit. When I explain this to my children, they say 'no dad, that's 3 Gods not 1'.

Children need to be corrected when they make a mistake. This is the responsibility of a parent.

So I am sure you tell your children that Christians believe in one God only and that it is not 1 plus 1 plus 1 = 3, but 1 times 1 times 1 times = 1.
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟32,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Where does Jesus pbuh explain this to the Jews he was sent to?

Jesus spoke of the Father; Jesus said He is the Son; and Jesus said the Advocate was the Holy Spirit of God and said the Holy Spirit would teach, indicating that the Holy Spirit is a person.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
@GeorgeTwo and @Muslim-UK , I noticed this interesting book (although I haven't purchased it). It has some interesting ideas on why the Christians could believe in the Trinity without being polytheists.
In The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel, Benjamin D. Sommer investigates the notion of a deity's body and self in ancient Israel, Canaan, and Mesopotamia. He uncovers a lost ancient Near Eastern perception of divinity according to which an essential difference between gods and humans was that gods had more than one body and fluid, unbounded selves. Though the dominant strains of biblical religion rejected it, a monotheistic version of this theological intuition is found in some biblical texts. Later Jewish and Christian thinkers inherited this ancient way of thinking; ideas such as the sefirot in kabbalah and the trinity in Christianity represent a late version of this theology. This book forces us to rethink the distinction between monotheism and polytheism, as this notion of divine fluidity is found in both polytheistic cultures (Babylonia, Assyria, Canaan) and monotheistic ones (biblical religion, Jewish mysticism, Christianity), whereas it is absent in some polytheistic cultures (classical Greece). The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel has important repercussions not only for biblical scholarship and comparative religion but for Jewish-Christian dialogue.
Bodies god and world ancient israel | Biblical studies - Old Testament, Hebrew bible
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

frienden thalord

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2017
1,958
1,731
52
texas
✟59,367.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I don't think all the Christian rulers got this memo. In fact Christian on Christian violence saw Millions killed as heretics.
This might offend a whole lot of folks. But truth is the truth on what I say next.
I highly doubt even more than one percent of over all christains , truly are christain.
We have a serious problem in christanity. And its bad.
So few truly follow Christ . And yes, may answer may surprise not only the muslim but even christains.
But if ISIS approached me , to even kill me. Here is what should be done.
No harm to ISIS , if given a chance I should share the gospel. NO self defense for me.
IN fact here is the one thing I should do. Right before ISIS swings the blade down on my head
I say LORD FORGIVE THEM for they know not what they do.
I have no doubt I am seen as odd. But not a one of them wicked preachers of interfaith nor the world
can say I am DANGEROUS. Yet they will see me as such in time. What a wicked lie interfaith is , its the
worst religion every born . amen.
 
Upvote 0

Rubiks

proud libtard
Aug 14, 2012
4,293
2,259
United States
✟137,866.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The trinity does not teach there are 3 independently existing deities. It teaches that there are 3 coexisting manifestations of the same God.

I don't understand why some maintain that Christianity believes in 3 gods when it has never taught that.
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟32,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
No, I tell them 'yes 3 Gods', this is clear to anyone when you use your powers of logic and reasoning. Remember, God is not the author of confusion. No confusion to who He is in the Torah or the Qur'an.

1 x 1 x 1 only works if it's the same being in all 3 instances, with the same attributes as GOD. Before we can see if it adds up, we must first define who GOD is. The Qur'an says the following, see if you agree...

112:0 In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
112:1 Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD."
112:2 "The Absolute GOD."
112:3 "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten."
112:4 "None equals Him."

As a Trinitarian Christian, I can say I believe in all 5 of these.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟32,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
I have no disagreement with the above.

Father = God of Abraham pbuh
Jesus pbuh = son of God meaning pious religious, God fearing person.
Holy Spirit = Angel Gabriel pbuh

The Holy Spirit of God is not an angel; the Holy Spirit of Allah is not an angel; Allah has his own spirit.

Holy Spirit:

The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, a mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 5:26).

Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely a force, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).

The truth is there are seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit

1. God -Acts 5:3-4
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14

Attributes of (9)

7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:7
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11.
Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15.
Alive – John 14:17

Symbols of (3)

16. Dove - Matt. 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3


Sins Against (6)

19. Blasphemy - Matt. 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb. 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph. 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thess. 5:19

Power in Christ's Life (6)

25. Conceived of - Matt. 1:18,20
26. Baptism - Matt. 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom. 8:11

The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)

1 Access to God - Eph. 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal. 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet. 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:232-34; 1 Cor. 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thess. 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thess. 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; 4:29-31; 5:18-20; 9:17
18 Forbids action - Ac 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom. 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom. 8:9-14; Gal. 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph. 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom. 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor. 2:1,14; Eph. 1:17
27 Leads - Rom. 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom. 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal. 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal. 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom. 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph. 1:1314; 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4;1 Cor. 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal. 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phil. 3:3.

From Messianic Jewish Scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown:

"Interestingly, there are several references in the Rabbinic literature to the Holy Spirit speaking, announcing, crying out, rebuking, and even serving as the counsel for the defense. For example:

The Talmud (m. Sotah 9:6; b. Sotah 46a) states that when the elders performed the rite of the red heifer (Deut. 21:1-9), ‘They did not have to say, "And the blood shall be forgiven them" [Deut. 21:8], instead the Holy Spirit announces to them, "Whenever you do this, the blood shall be forgiven you."’

Commenting on Exodus 1:12, ‘But the more they [i.e., the Israelites] were oppressed [by the Egyptians], the more they multiplied and spread,’ the Talmud states (b. Pesahim 117a) that the Holy Spirit announced to them, ‘So will he [Israel] increase and spread out!’ This is explained by Rashi and other major Jewish commentators to mean that the Holy Spirit said to the Egyptians, ‘Just as you seek to oppress them more, the more so will they increase and spread out!’

In Pirke D’Rabbi Eliezer 31, as Ishmael (Abraham’s son) and Eliezar (his steward) argue about who will be Abraham’s heir—seeing that they are going together with Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to the Lord (Genesis 22) — the Holy Spirit answers them and says, ‘Neither this one nor this one will inherit.’

In a late midrash cited in Yalkut Reubeni (9d) to Genesis 1:26, after Ben Sira shared the secret, mystical teachings with his son Uzziah and his grandson Joseph, the Holy Spirit called out, ‘Who is it that revealed My secrets to mankind?’ Ben Sira replied, ‘I, Buzi, the son of Buzi.’ The Holy Spirit said to him, ‘Enough!’

Lamentations Rabbah 3:60, 9 relates that after the Roman emperor Hadrian indiscriminately executed two Jews, the Holy Spirit kept crying out, ‘You have seen O LORD, the wrong done to ME. Uphold MY cause! You have seen the depth of their vengeance, all their plots against ME’ (Lam. 3:59-60). This provides an example of the Spirit making intercession.

According to Leviticus Rabbah 6:1, the Holy Spirit is a defense counsel who speaks to Israel on behalf of the Lord and then speaks to the Lord on behalf of Israel. To Israel the Spirit says, ‘Do not testify against your neighbor without cause’ (Prov. 24:28), and to the Lord the Spirit says, ‘Do not say, "I’ll do him as he has done me"’ (Prov. 24:29).

"In all these citations, which can easily be multiplied (see, e.g., Genesis Rabbah 84:11; Song of Songs Rabbah 8:16; Lamentations Rabbah 1:48), there can be no question that we are dealing with a ‘who’ and not just a ‘what’, WITH A PERSONAL DIMENSION OF GOD and not just an impersonal power, WITH GOD HIMSELF and yet with a ‘separate’ entity who can mediate between God and man. And these citations closely parallel some of the New Testament descriptions of the Holy Spirit, although virtually all the Rabbinic texts cited were written many years later ..." (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus—Volume Two, Theological Objections [Baker Books; Grand Rapids MI, 2000], pp. 55-57; bold and capital emphasis mine)
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟32,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
The last one, none equals him also means there's nothing like him. Do you agree with that?

Yes.

Ok understood. Is Jesus pbuh fully God too?

Jesus is the Incarnate Word of God; He is not the Father and not the Holy Spirit.

Jesus as a man is not God.

God took on human nature.

 
Upvote 0

GeorgeTwo

Member
May 31, 2008
1,127
126
✟32,202.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the three persons of the Trinity as described by the Catholic Church holds Jesus pbuh, a man was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. Do you mean as his human nature he wasn't God?

When Jesus pbuh spoke, was it God speaking? When the Disciples sat with him, were they sat with God?

Someone should explain to wood and co they're comparing two very different concepts. You worship Jesus as God, no one worships the Qur'an. It is a created book containing some knowledge of God, that is imparted on us to guide mankind.

Jesus as a man did not exist before He was born.

We worship the Creator, the one true God and Him only.
 
Upvote 0