Islam Muslims Objection to the Trinity

[DWA2DAY]

The difficulty I personally have is this:

Since a what isn't a who, and a who isn't a what, how can God be the Father or the Father be God? Still trying to figure out how that isn't logically inconsistent.

Hi Spockrates
Without be funny or offensive to you, as one Christian brother to another, pray and ask god for direction and he will be faithful and reveal the truth to you.

Regards

 

[spockrates]

Hi Spockrates
Without be funny or offensive to you, as one Christian brother to another, pray and ask god for direction and he will be faithful and reveal the truth to you.

Regards

I have. He said to ask you. Did he ask me to ask you because you have the answer, or are you in the same boat as me, and he wants us to figure it out together?

 

[DWA2DAY]

Qur'an also says to follow the Prophet pbuh:

7:157 Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.

All Prophets point to Jesus pbuh,

Ok so the text clearly say - Those who follow the messenger (Mohammad) found in the Torah and Gospel instructs and urges people to follw it (Torah and Gospel teachings as it is to your full benefit. ..... so that they who believe in him (Jesus Christ whom all prophets point too) must honor and support the light which was sent down with him (Jesus Christ) and those who do this will be successful.

Clear and concise in detail as promised by Allah. There is no need for the Hadith written 300 after Allah revelation for a clear understanding, just the ability to read.

 

[DWA2DAY]

To all the Muslim member -
Happy Ramadan and may Allah bring you great Blessing during the Fast.

 

[DWA2DAY]

You have confused a clear and concise verse. In plain English:

Those Jews and Christians who follow the illiterate Prophet Muhammad pbuh mentioned in their Scriptures will be amongst the successful. They are instructed to throw off the shackles and restrictions of their former Religions and come to Islam and the Qur'an.

Nothing there about following the Torah and Injeel or Jesus pbuh. You only have to continue reading to remove any doubt:

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. 7:158

I am sorry you again are not been honest to the text. This verse does not say anything about not following the Torah or Gospel. It simply confirm Mohammad to be one of the 144,000 prophets of Allah who declares himself (Allah) is god.

Yet following your lodgic as you clearly stated we must keep the text in context and in support of this you said in a previous post :-

Muhammad pbuh had doubts from where his revelation was initially coming from and tried to resist it. Verse 94 should now make sense:

So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters. Qur'an 10:94

]

Thus by your own admission, Mohammad did not trust the revelation he had received from Allah and was in doubt. Thus to safe guard ones salvation and entry into paradise Mohammad tells all believers to refer to the Torah and Gospel. This means Mohammad had unclear understanding of Jesus death and resurrection and the context of the Bible and the truth found in the Jewish and Christian text. Thus to clear any doubts say look to the previous scriptures that hold the truth.

Clear as Day Light. Come home to Jesus

 

[DWA2DAY]

Firstly apologies for the late reply


DWA2DAY said: ↑

Please can you back you claim with referance to the Quran - specifically I would like to see the following :-
agreemen



DWA2DAY said: ↑


Surah stating that the people of the Book scriptures are corrupted.
Surha showing that Christians are corrupt people.

[002:079] Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God,"

[002:135] They say, “Become the Jews, or become the Christians, and (only then) you will be guided.” (Oh prophet), tell them, “(We would) rather follow the creed of Ibraheem, who was the exclusive devotee (of Allah). He was not among those who set up others as equal to Allah.”

[002:159] Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be God's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,

[003:024] This because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days": For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion.

My question was to produce a surah that shows the bible / people of the book scriptures are corrupt. All you have done is to show that there are corrupt people in the world including muslims.

However what you have not been honest about is veserse such as 5:47 that confirms the Bible to be autherntic and was held by Mohammad.

The Surahs you quote do not show this, much the same as me say Islam is not a religion of peace because of the radical suicide bombers.

in context the quran says they are corrupted. like i said, the quran criticizes and corrects the torah, the injeel, the jews and christians, it's elementary, the quran says different things about jesus, about adam and eve, about moses aaron, about the crucifixion, etc etc. logically why would the quran say that the bible is still in its pure form if it contradicts each other in some aspects?!

Correct you got it there are corrupt people, but nowhere does it say the Bible is corrupt.

Logically there are 144,000 Islamic prophets before Mohammad, all say and speak in one accord. Allah confirm this by say he sent them down scripture, Then Mohammad says something different ------ 144,000 to 1.

Logically speaking and in context most would agree that the one is at fault. Yet for your benefit even Mohammad was in doubt and thus Allah in his wisdom revealed to him Surah 10:94 that the Bible is the true reference for all believers.


DWA2DAY said: ↑

A Surah that says christian can not understand the Quran.

[002:026] God disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means God by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

Wow how on earth does this say Christian cannot understand the Quran.

All it says is that Allah cause people to stay and if someone does not believe the Quran it is because Allah willed it.

If I now must go to hell because Allah willed me to not believe it is Allah fault not mind as I had no free will to make a choice.


DWA2DAY said: ↑

Surah showing that Christian and Jews are pagans.

pls be careful with what you post, I DIDN'T say jews and christians are pagan,

i said: "they are still above the pagans in god’s eyes"

Please be truthful to your previous post:-

1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods"

Islam 101 says believing in more than one god is pagan worship also known as shriek. Hope spelling correct.


I am now to understand that you do not believe in the teaching from the quran?







↑


A Surah that shows or explains what truths remain in the Bible.

again it is in context, the quran mentions prophets and other parallel things to the bible, principles and morals that are similar between the books, like respect for parents, dont commit adultery, dont steal etc etc. it's simple logic.

Ok fine in context to which verse in the Quran?

Opps there is no otherwise you would have quoted them. In reference to the above it would be fair to say let’s say within the context of the revelation of Allah written in the Quran the Bible is authentic and Jesus is the way the truth and the life anyone wishing to enter paradise must go through Jesus. Any parallels you draw are selective to suit your personal needs and not in accordance with the Quran.

One can only conclude that you like most other Muslims are quick to make untruthful statement yet are unable to back them up with clear reference to Allah’s word in the Quran.

 

[jibreelhill]

Please be truthful to your previous post:-

pls quote where i said christians and jews are pagans?!

 

[jibreelhill]

Firstly apologies for the late reply


DWA2DAY said: ↑

Please can you back you claim with referance to the Quran - specifically I would like to see the following :-
agreemen



DWA2DAY said: ↑


Surah stating that the people of the Book scriptures are corrupted.
Surha showing that Christians are corrupt people.




My question was to produce a surah that shows the bible / people of the book scriptures are corrupt. All you have done is to show that there are corrupt people in the world including muslims.

However what you have not been honest about is veserse such as 5:47 that confirms the Bible to be autherntic and was held by Mohammad.

The Surahs you quote do not show this, much the same as me say Islam is not a religion of peace because of the radical suicide bombers.





Correct you got it there are corrupt people, but nowhere does it say the Bible is corrupt.

Logically there are 144,000 Islamic prophets before Mohammad, all say and speak in one accord. Allah confirm this by say he sent them down scripture, Then Mohammad says something different ------ 144,000 to 1.

Logically speaking and in context most would agree that the one is at fault. Yet for your benefit even Mohammad was in doubt and thus Allah in his wisdom revealed to him Surah 10:94 that the Bible is the true reference for all believers.


DWA2DAY said: ↑

A Surah that says christian can not understand the Quran.





Wow how on earth does this say Christian cannot understand the Quran.

All it says is that Allah cause people to stay and if someone does not believe the Quran it is because Allah willed it.

If I now must go to hell because Allah willed me to not believe it is Allah fault not mind as I had no free will to make a choice.


DWA2DAY said: ↑

Surah showing that Christian and Jews are pagans.




Please be truthful to your previous post:-





Islam 101 says believing in more than one god is pagan worship also known as shriek. Hope spelling correct.


I am now to understand that you do not believe in the teaching from the quran?







↑


A Surah that shows or explains what truths remain in the Bible.




Ok fine in context to which verse in the Quran?

Opps there is no otherwise you would have quoted them. In reference to the above it would be fair to say let’s say within the context of the revelation of Allah written in the Quran the Bible is authentic and Jesus is the way the truth and the life anyone wishing to enter paradise must go through Jesus. Any parallels you draw are selective to suit your personal needs and not in accordance with the Quran.

One can only conclude that you like most other Muslims are quick to make untruthful statement yet are unable to back them up with clear reference to Allah’s word in the Quran.

your responses are all over the place. lets not make it complicated, its simple logic. in some areas, the quran contradicts the bible, in some areas the quran has the same teachings with the bible, therefore if we are to take it in context, the quran does not say that the bible is still in its pure form, the quran says the bible is corrupted but there are still truth in it.

 

[DWA2DAY]

My reply in Blue

DWA2DAY said: ↑

I am sorry you again are not been honest to the text. This verse does not say anything about not following the Torah or Gospel. It simply confirm Mohammad to be one of the 144,000 prophets of Allah who declares himself (Allah) is god.

Yet following your lodgic as you clearly stated we must keep the text in context and in support of this you said in a previous post :-

Muhammad pbuh had doubts from where his revelation was initially coming from and tried to resist it. Verse 94 should now make sense:

So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters. Qur'an 10:94

Thus by your own admission, Mohammad did not trust the revelation he had received from Allah and was in doubt. Thus to safe guard ones salvation and entry into paradise Mohammad tells all believers to refer to the Torah and Gospel. This means Mohammad had unclear understanding of Jesus death and resurrection and the context of the Bible and the truth found in the Jewish and Christian text. Thus to clear any doubts say look to the previous scriptures that hold the truth.

Clear as Day Light. Come home to Jesus

You're all over the place and ignoring the Hadith, which clearly showed Muhammad pbuh went to a Christian Monk who confirmed, yes what came to you was Angel Gabriel pbuh, just as he came to previous Prophets like Moses pbuh.

Unsure how you think I am all over the place, I simply quote your comment and Quran, keeping my comment in context of the Quranic text and in agreement what you said. Thus have shown that Allah is a god that deceives people and revealed to the Arab nation that when in doubt seek the truth revealed in the scriptures that came before i.e. the Bible which Mohammad had held in his hands.

The Quran makes no reference to a Christian Monk.

The Hadith is not the Revelation and word of Allah but the writings of man some 300 years after the event. If we are to use this as the basis of your faith we both know the Hadith is full of contradictory statements you yourself do not accept, for example the Satanic Verses show that Mohammad’s revelations were from Satan and not Allah.


Thus lets stick to the text of the Quran and Bible, So yes I am ignoring the Hadith as this is not the text your faith is based on. The Hadith is not the word of Allah. Thus back to the Quran, and the topic of this issue we discussing – The Quran point to the Bible as the Authoritative word of God, that all Muslims must read when in doubt.

This is a daft argument and the facts on the ground go against you starting with Jews and Christians accepting the Qur'an and becoming Muslims, and your own Scholars confirming the original New Testament is lost, and what you have had since the 4th Century has had verses added.

Wow – What do you mean by draft argument?

Where have I said Jews and Christians are accepting the Quran and becoming Muslims?

How can the New Testament be lost when the Quran itself confirm Mohammad had it in his hands and the Quran goes further to say Allah’s word cannot be changed? – Thus again your statement is against the Quran and brings dis honour to you and your families faith.


Besides that I believe in the New Testament as the autoreactive inspired word of God and you do not, (against the teachings of the Quran) is no my problem nor does it offer any substance to your argument.

What’s the issue with the added verse, we all know about them and understand them as copier’s errors. This further is not a hidden mystery, nor does it have any bearing on the discussion or the bases of my faith. Thus I am unsure as how this proves that Allah revelation does not refer to the Bible.


DWA2DAY said: ↑

In understanding the full Biblical narrative we find the concept of the trinity was progressively reveal in the Old Testament. In the creation story Genesis 1:2 we find the Holt Spirt hovering over the water, later in verse 26 we read let US make man. Genesis 3:22 the man has now become like one of US. Genesis 11:7 let US go down and confuse there language.

The Trinity was a Doctrine that took Centuries to formulate and is not found in the OT. 3 persons all fully God, made the same substance as God, the three co equal and co eternal. Where is that found in the verses you referenced? Nowhere. Why not just show me where Jesus pbuh and the Holy Spirit have all the attributes of God, just show where they say they are co equal and co eternal with God using the words of Jesus pbuh or passages in the Torah.

Well you are entitled to your opinion, however that is not what the Biblical narrative teaches.

It is interesting that suddenly you seek the exact word phrase – and cannot understand a simple sentence as “My Father and I are One” yet can understand that Jesus reference to the comforter is in fact Mohammad and that Ishmael will be the line of the covenant of Yahweh Revelation.


Even the Quran refers to Allah as “WE” – (to spell it plural = more than one), sent the Holy Spirit to Support Jesus. And call Jesus the Word of God, and thus shows the three person of the trinity in its text. If you unsure about this the Bible it will give you the truth.


So let me again try and bring this to a head and trust you will answer this question directly:-


What is your understanding of John 10:25-29 and Matthew 16:13-17?


Your answer on these two passages will give me the tools to show you the truth.

 

[DWA2DAY]

pls quote where i said christians and jews are pagans?!

Please read post # 141

 

[DWA2DAY]

your responses are all over the place. lets not make it complicated, its simple logic. in some areas, the quran contradicts the bible, in some areas the quran has the same teachings with the bible, therefore if we are to take it in context, the quran does not say that the bible is still in its pure form, the quran says the bible is corrupted but there are still truth in it.

Were does it say this or imply this. ------ opps it does not - it say clearly

When in doubt refer to the Bible it holds the true guidance.

So is it the Quran we must believe or you silly statement?

 

[jibreelhill]

Were does it say this or imply this. ------ opps it does not - it say clearly

When in doubt refer to the Bible it holds the true guidance.

So is it the Quran we must believe or you silly statement?

read post #90 and #120

Actually, it's not three persons in one God. It's one God in three persons.

Hi @jibreelhill.

Yeah, yeah. Saying God is one God and three Gods would be illogical and inconsistent and obviously untrue.

Yeah, no. That's not what trinitarians believe. They say there is one God in three persons. God is one what in three who's. Since a who isn't the same as a what, it's logically consistent.

The difficulty I personally have is this:

Since a what isn't a who, and a who isn't a what, how can God be the Father or the Father be God? Still trying to figure out how that isn't logically inconsistent.

call them "who" or call them "what", it is just a play of words, if the doctrine is to be analyzed, the trinity is actually 3 gods.

if a question is asked: "is jesus god?" the answer should respond to a "what?", and not to a "who?"

if the answer is "yes" then, the next question would be is: "is the father and HS god?" the next question would be: "so how many gods are there?" to know how many gods are there, they have to be counted: jesus is god, the father is god. the HS is god; 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods

 

[spockrates]

read post #90 and #120

call them "who" or call them "what", it is just a play of words, if the doctrine is to be analyzed, the trinity is actually 3 gods.

if a question is asked: "is jesus god?" the answer should respond to a "what?", and not to a "who?"

if the answer is "yes" then, the next question would be is: "is the father and HS god?" the next question would be: "so how many gods are there?" to know how many gods are there, they have to be counted: jesus is god, the father is god. the HS is god; 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods

Not sure about the Christians Muhammad pbuh knew, but Christians I know don't believe Jesus is God. Jesus is a man. The Son of God, they say is God. The Son is in the man so the two are never separate, but the two are distinct.

 

[spockrates]

read post #90 and #12

call them "who" or call them "what", it is just a play of words, if the doctrine is to be analyzed, the trinity is actually 3 gods.

if a question is asked: "is jesus god?" the answer should respond to a "what?", and not to a "who?"

if the answer is "yes" then, the next question would be is: "is the father and HS god?" the next question would be: "so how many gods are there?" to know how many gods are there, they have to be counted: jesus is god, the father is god. the HS is god; 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods

To your other point, as previously said, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three persons, not three Gods, and a person doesn't a God make. The Trinity doctrine simply stated:

There is only one God, and the one God is in three persons who are distinct, but not separate.
​

 

[DWA2DAY]

DWA2DAY said: ↑

So let me again try and bring this to a head and trust you will answer this question directly:-

What is your understanding of John 10:25-29 and Matthew 16:13-17?

Your answer on these two passages will give me the tools to show you the truth.

I have truth, so your efforts are wasted. Jesus pbuh was the Messiah sent by Allah swt to bring the lost sheep of Israel back to the right path. Jesus pbuh came to do God's will and was thus 'One in purpose with the Father'.

I thought as much, you are too scared to face the truth off the matter.
I would have though during Ramadan would be a perfect opportunity for you to expand your understanding of God.

Thus one is left to concluded that your comments and faith are nothing more that hot air in a loud sounding gong that holds not substance.

 

[jibreelhill]

Not sure about the Christians Muhammad pbuh knew, but Christians I know don't believe Jesus is God. Jesus is a man. The Son of God, they say is God. The Son is in the man so the two are never separate, but the two are distinct.

are you saying that jesus is not the son of god?!

or are you saying that jesus is half god only?!

if jesus is not the son of god, then the jesus that died on the cross in not the son of god, therefore, the bible lies when is says "for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..."

and if jesus is just a human body that the son of god possessed, then when he came back to heaven you shouldnt call him jesus anymore, and still, the bible lies when is says "for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..."

To your other point, as previously said, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three persons, not three Gods, and a person doesn't a God make. The Trinity doctrine simply stated:

There is only one God, and the one God is in three persons who are distinct, but not separate.
​

distinct but not separate, thats nonsense! they are distinct, they have separate and different consciousness, separate and different minds, separate and different decisions.

how do we count god? we cant count them per head/body unlike humans, animals etc, because they dont have physical bodies, we count them by their mind, person and conciousness, so therefore, the trinity god is really 3 gods, the father is god, the son is god, the HS is god, therefore they are 3 gods, 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods. ​

 

[DWA2DAY]

are you saying that Jesus is not the son of God?!

or are you saying that Jesus is half God only?!

I notice that spoxkrates has gone silent with regard to your questions. So allow me to offer a solution to your problem.

I do believe you can can answer these questions yourself, from the point of view that both Christians and Muslims agree in the virgin birth of Jesus. Thus you need to ask yourself who is the father or author of this wonderful miracle.
To answer anything other than God / Yahweh (Surah 10:94 "Our God and Your God are One") would be denying your faith and the revelations found in the Quran. Thus in truth Islam (with respect to the teaching found with in the Quran) believe that Jesus is the Incarnate Son of God.

The issue Muslims have is the Islamic Tradition that in its self stands in opposition to the Quran.

 

[ViaCrucis]

if a question is asked: "is jesus god?" the answer should respond to a "what?", and not to a "who?"

The answer to "who" is Jesus Christ, the eternally begotten Son and Word of the Father, conceived by the power of the Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
The answer to "what" is both God and man.

if the answer is "yes" then, the next question would be is: "is the father and HS god?" the next question would be: "so how many gods are there?" to know how many gods are there, they have to be counted: jesus is god, the father is god. the HS is god; 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods

Sure, if Jesus is a god, and the Father is a god, and the Holy Spirit is a god, then that's three gods. But, of course, that isn't Trinitarianism.

This is Trinitarianism:

"And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords." - From the Athanasian Creed

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Kutte]

The answer to "who" is Jesus Christ, the eternally begotten Son and Word of the Father, conceived by the power of the Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
The answer to "what" is both God and man.



Sure, if Jesus is a god, and the Father is a god, and the Holy Spirit is a god, then that's three gods. But, of course, that isn't Trinitarianism.

This is Trinitarianism:

"And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords." - From the Athanasian Creed

-CryptoLutheran

Hi ViaCrucis,
For what it's worth:
I have a problem with the notion that the Holy Spirit (or Ghost if you prefer) is a person.
A spirit is a quality emanating from a spiritual being like a word, an expression, a thought, separate from matter for the purpose of inspiring someone else, perhaps even for enlightening that someone. If one is dealing with spiritual influences from God then it is justified to be called the Holy Spirit.
My best

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi ViaCrucis,
For what it's worth:
I have a problem with the notion that the Holy Spirit (or Ghost if you prefer) is a person.
A spirit is a quality emanating from a spiritual being like a word, an expression, a thought, separate from matter for the purpose of inspiring someone else, perhaps even for enlightening that someone. If one is dealing with spiritual influences from God then it is justified to be called the Holy Spirit.
My best

I would follow this with three questions:

1) How are you arriving at that definition of "spirit"?
2) In light of your definition of "spirit" here how would you address John 4:24?
3) And finally how would you address passages such as Acts 5:1-4, wherein the Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit, which was lying to God? If the Holy Spirit isn't a discrete "person" but a kind of impersonal emanating principle or force, how does one lie to a principle or a force?

-CryptoLutheran