Islam Muslims Objection to the Trinity

DWA2DAY

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Jesus pbuh had a adopted Earthly Father and a Spiritual Father in Heaven. Adam pbuh had no Earthly Father, something the Qur'an points out to people like you to reflect upon.

Muhammad and the majority of Prophets, peace be upon them all had biological Fathers and all had God as their Spiritual Father. Though the Qur'an doesn't use Father due to the error of the Christians, it does use the word Rabb as a one of the 99 names of God, meaning one who raises, cherishes, loves and guides mankind.

One must add that the Quran also teaches that man can be nothing or than a slave in the eyes of Allah and thus there is no relationship of lovingly raising a child, a father who cherishes loves and guides, this is void in the Quran and if Allah does offer any for of love it is conditional and is subject to be taken away at any time if Allah wills it for no reason.
 
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DWA2DAY

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Hi,
All Prophets were given powers by the permission of GOD. Moses pbuh against the magicians, Jesus pbuh showed signs of wonder to a society making medical advancements, Muhammad pbuh to a people who were in awe of poets and those showing eloquence in public speaking.

Acts 2:22 "O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you..." Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus. Jesus thus even to his disciples, was a man, not a God, which was something that developed over decades amongst a Pagan mindset.
Which prophets claimed to be One with God the Father?
Only Jesus Christ.

Yes you are correct Jesus Christ is a MAN. Yet more than a man which our limited understanding allows us to perceive. Even the Quran states that this Man the Messiah was sinless something not even Mohammad could claim.

Think about this fact for a moment - one who lived for 33 years never had an impure thought, never lied, never treat a fellow human badly, never cursed, never hated, never had a though or desire for revenge. Just came to show the power of God love for His Children us. Wow........

It time we grasped this in the truth and enormity of its expression.
 
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DWA2DAY

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Finally to remove any doubt the Doctrine is not from God, He makes clear in his Final Revelation to mankind to reject the terrible idea and return back to him or count amongst the losers in the hereafter.

I assume the final revelation you speaking of is the Quran.
Yet the Quran teaches that Jesus Christ is central to is message, (mentioning Jesus by name 25 time and Mohammad only four)
It also teaches that all the prophets before gave the same message.
The Quran further goes on to say if your are in doubt / confused as you seem to be refere to the scriptures before it.

so you have done this but claim

I have discussed the Doctrine of Trinity on this forum and the conclusion is it is contradictory and thus confusing. We know God is not the author of confusion. He is beyond our limited understanding, but Scripture is revealed so we may know what he requires from us, not to add to our confusion.

Then follow your own advice and God / Allah to reveal Himself to you, as for the Spirit of God to come into your hear and give you clarity. Ask God to show you the straight path.

GOD is immortal, all knowing and unlike his creation; not a man who by himself can do nothing, takes himself away, falls in prostration and prays to 'his' God.

Jesus said "Ask in my name and it shall be given unto you. John 14:13

Give it a try- you have nothing to lose. In fact the Quran instructs you to ask the Christians and Jews for advise when in doubt, which you seem to be. So be faithful to the teaching of the Quran and pray for a revelation from Jesus.
 
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DWA2DAY

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I've read an English translation of the Koran, (Qu'ran?) and I liked a good deal of it. :)

I to have read the Quran and find it the most confusing and contradictory book of faith I have ever read. In fact on its own as a literary work it makes no sense at all. Even with reference to the Tafsir I find it still confusing.

For example Allah loves the righteous doer yet hates the sinner. what god creates something to hate.

But this is off topic and just wanted to comment on your post.
 
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jibreelhill

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Well I am unsure how much more explicit one must be "John 10:30 I and My father are One"
If you require a detailed explanation of this let me know.
what i am looking for is the verse that explicitly say that there are 3 persons in 1 god, other non trinitarian sects also use that verse you gave.

and the verse that you gave doesnt even mean that jesus is god, it means one in purpose

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:21-22
 
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DWA2DAY

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when i said i cannot specify whos who, i meant i cannot exactly say what their names are, and what books of the NT exactly are the hadiths of jesus written by his companions, all i know is that he had companions like muhammad, and the injeel is not greek and not written by his companions.

[003:052] "When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims."
This post is off topic, yet if I may I would like your comment as the Quran further goes on to say that Allah promises Jesus that His followers would be superior to unbelievers until the day of resurrection. Surah 3:55
Therefore Muslims must agree that the Muslim followers of Jesus did not last very long as they left no historical foot print of Islam or the mention of Muslim in the historical record till the 9th century.
Yet According to the Quran Allah help Jesus gain the upper hand over the Jews who rejected Jesus. Surah 61:14
The only followers of Jesus who became superior over the Jews were Christians who believed in the death resurrection and deity of Jesus.
Thus from the Quran it is clear the followers of Jesus who became dominate and powerful were not Muslims. We also know that follower of Jesus did become victorious over the Jews, we also know what these followers believed and it was not Islam.

Interesting to note that Muslim commentators admit the Quran is referring to Christian who took over the Roman Empire, they permeated the Roman Empire and Christianity became the predominate religion of the world. The Muslim commutator Yusuf Ali confirms this : - Commentary on surah 61:14 english-quran-with-commentaries(yusuf-ali)

To develop this further in relation to the quran teaching, The Quran states that the Injil (Gospel) was give as a guidance for mankind. Surah 3:3-4. Thus Allah’s goal was to give mankind the Gospel so it can be a guidance for mankind.

This raises the question was Allah successful in achieving this goal or not?

According to the Quran Christians still possessed the Gospel during Mohammad’s time. Surah 18:27. Contrary to the Muslim belief today the Quran assets that no one can change Allah’s words. Thus the Quran insists that the Gospel is the word of Allah and no one can change Allah’s words. It also declares that 7th Century Christians were reading the Torah and Gospels (Surah 7:157)

But Islam asserts that Jesus never died or was raised from the dead. If Islam is correct then why have some many people, Christian and non-Christian believed that Jesus died by crucifixion? According to the Quran Allah tricked people into believing Jesus was crucified. Surah 4:157-158

Staying with the Quran Surah 19:33 teaches Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead.

Thus this is a dilemma to Muslims and presents many questions one needs to consider. If you believe the Quran then listen to its advise in surah 3:3-4
 
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DWA2DAY

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Not Judas because he failed to submit his will to God. The others, yes all were believers and accepted Monotheism.

2 Peter is said not to be written by him. Matthew did not write the Gospel according to Matthew, the anonymous Gospel was later ascribed to him. John too did not write the Gospel attributed to him, and the book of Revelation was disputed and not accepted as inspired for hundreds of years. The original works are all lost and what we have left are according to a leading NT Scholar, Professor Bart Ehrman, copies of copies of copies of copies of copies and all these copies in bold are lost. We can only reconstruct the complete Bible back to the 4th Century.

If they are lost please explain surah 10:94, 5:47, 7:157, all your sacred text pointing to prove the bible as we have it today was in the hands of Mohammed, who understood it and who Allah specifically told Mohammad to refer to.
Besides the point the Allah has promised to protect his word. surha 18:27

Thus your post tells me you do not believe your own text, or you have another faith which looks like Islam but with some personal twists in it.

Thus my question is do you believe th Quran is true or not?
 
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DWA2DAY

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what i am looking for is the verse that explicitly say that there are 3 persons in 1 god, other non trinitarian sects also use that verse you gave.

and the verse that you gave doesnt even mean that jesus is god, it means one in purpose

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:21-22

It seems you are hear to argue and not learn.
What is your understanding of Matthew 16:13-20?
 
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jibreelhill

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It seems you are hear to argue and not learn.
What is your understanding of Matthew 16:13-20?

i am not here to learn coz i already know the trinity, the thread's title is "muslims' objection to the trinity", so yes i am here to argue and to object the trinity as a muslim.
 
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jibreelhill

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This post is off topic, yet if I may I would like your comment as the Quran further goes on to say that Allah promises Jesus that His followers would be superior to unbelievers until the day of resurrection. Surah 3:55
Therefore Muslims must agree that the Muslim followers of Jesus did not last very long as they left no historical foot print of Islam or the mention of Muslim in the historical record till the 9th century.
Yet According to the Quran Allah help Jesus gain the upper hand over the Jews who rejected Jesus. Surah 61:14
The only followers of Jesus who became superior over the Jews were Christians who believed in the death resurrection and deity of Jesus.
Thus from the Quran it is clear the followers of Jesus who became dominate and powerful were not Muslims. We also know that follower of Jesus did become victorious over the Jews, we also know what these followers believed and it was not Islam.

Interesting to note that Muslim commentators admit the Quran is referring to Christian who took over the Roman Empire, they permeated the Roman Empire and Christianity became the predominate religion of the world. The Muslim commutator Yusuf Ali confirms this : - Commentary on surah 61:14 english-quran-with-commentaries(yusuf-ali)

To develop this further in relation to the quran teaching, The Quran states that the Injil (Gospel) was give as a guidance for mankind. Surah 3:3-4. Thus Allah’s goal was to give mankind the Gospel so it can be a guidance for mankind.

This raises the question was Allah successful in achieving this goal or not?

According to the Quran Christians still possessed the Gospel during Mohammad’s time. Surah 18:27. Contrary to the Muslim belief today the Quran assets that no one can change Allah’s words. Thus the Quran insists that the Gospel is the word of Allah and no one can change Allah’s words. It also declares that 7th Century Christians were reading the Torah and Gospels (Surah 7:157)

But Islam asserts that Jesus never died or was raised from the dead. If Islam is correct then why have some many people, Christian and non-Christian believed that Jesus died by crucifixion? According to the Quran Allah tricked people into believing Jesus was crucified. Surah 4:157-158

Staying with the Quran Surah 19:33 teaches Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead.

Thus this is a dilemma to Muslims and presents many questions one needs to consider. If you believe the Quran then listen to its advise in surah 3:3-4


you're right that's off-topic, anyway i'll answer that.

christians have wrong interpretations of the quran,

unbelievers and those who are just trying to find faults will be led astray.

quran verses must be interpreted in context and with logic.

quran says islam is the religion of adam, noah, abraham, moses, jesus and all the prophets.

same religion, same principles, same message. all revelations: the torah, the injeel, the qur'an etc may have different styles but all have the same principles, same message, same god’s words.

The quran is the criterion for the earlier scriptures, logic dictates that if the quran is saying that the torah and the injeel are still in their pure form, then the quran would have not criticize and correct the torah, the injeel, the jews and christians, and if the jews and christians still have their revelations in pure form, the quran would have not called them "jews" and "christians", the quran would have called them “muslims”.

Though the quran view jews and christians as corrupted people(and holding corrupted scriptures), they still hold a special place in god’s heart, they are called people of the scriptures, they are still above the pagans in god’s eyes, the quran in a way view them as having the same god as the muslims. Though corrupted, their scriptures still contain some truths, and those truths are confirmed by the quran.

none can change god’s words in context means god allowed the torah to be corrupted but the injeel came to restore the message when it also got corrupted, the quran came and restored god’s words (same message & principles) and being the last revelation, cannot be corrupted.
 
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spockrates

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...there are no passages in the bible that explicitly support the doctrine of the trinity, otherwise there will be no oneness christianity, no tritheism christianity, etc. in the OT, it is very clear and explicit that there is only one god and no other besides him.
Yeah, no. :)

Isn't that a bit like saying this? "There are no verses in the Koran that are against suicide bombing, otherwise there would be no, as President Trump calls them, 'radical Islamic terrorists'."

The truth, I think we must agree, was spoken by an American poet: "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." Just as people sadly fail to see the whole truth of the Koran, so too people sadly misunderstand the Bible.

The question I think we need to answer is, "Who is interpreting the Bible correctly?" Don't you agree?

without goD we are nothing, man has to be humble.

Yeah, yeah. But is it fair to call the only true God proud? (If English isn't your primary language, there might be an issue of translation, here. For pride in the biblical sense is seen as immoral.)

I'm thinking that one can know one is superior in authority and ability, yet still avoid being arrogant and unconcerned for those who are lesser. The phrase I saw repeated most in the English translation of the Koran I read was, "Allah is merciful." Seems to me that to show mercy, one must put aside pride. How does it seem to you?
 
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spockrates

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I to have read the Quran and find it the most confusing and contradictory book of faith I have ever read. In fact on its own as a literary work it makes no sense at all. Even with reference to the Tafsir I find it still confusing.

For example Allah loves the righteous doer yet hates the sinner. what god creates something to hate.

But this is off topic and just wanted to comment on your post.
Yeah, maybe. My opinion: The Koran is full of thought-provoking wisdom but lacking in historical context (such as historical events prior to Mohammad pbuh) so it's not subject to the same tests to verify its authenticity that the books of the Bible are.

Yet, to be fair, insofar as the Koran's purpose is to convey the thoughts of the God apart from history, it accomplishes it's goal. I mean, it does if it's indeed the final word of the only true God.
 
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jibreelhill

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Yeah, no. :)

Isn't that a bit like saying this? "There are no verses in the Koran that are against suicide bombing, otherwise there would be no, as President Trump calls them, 'radical Islamic terrorists'."

The truth, I think we must agree, was spoken by an American poet: "Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." Just as people sadly fail to see the whole truth of the Koran, so too people sadly misunderstand the Bible.

The question I think we need to answer is, "Who is interpreting the Bible correctly?" Don't you agree?

i agree about correct interpretations of scriptures, and yes there are verses that are vague and can only be used for certain doctrines and situations through careful and in context interpretations and analysis.

the reason why i was looking for verses or even just a verse where it says there are 3 persons in 1 god explicitly is because it is the most important doctrine in christianity compared to "suicide bombing" and according to your belief, the god of the OT is the trinity god, since the god of the OT is so explicit about him being one god, one would expect jesus would do the same. anyway the discussion went in circles and seems going nowhere, though it was a valid argument i might not pursue it for now.
 
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DWA2DAY

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i am not here to learn coz i already know the trinity, the thread's title is "muslims' objection to the trinity", so yes i am here to argue and to object the trinity as a muslim.

Oh that's great, then any there is nothing more I can add that has not been covered in thread #1.
 
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DWA2DAY

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Yeah, maybe. My opinion: The Koran is full of thought-provoking wisdom but lacking in historical context (such as historical events prior to Mohammad pbuh) so it's not subject to the same tests to verify its authenticity that the books of the Bible are.

Yet, to be fair, insofar as the Koran's purpose is to convey the thoughts of the God apart from history, it accomplishes it's goal. I mean, it does if it's indeed the final word of the only true God.

Oh Ok I see your point.
As a final revelation from God I would have expected some new direction or at the very least some form of new covenant with Gods people, (here I specifically refer to the Jews) yet the Quran is void of this. Then if I look at it as a revelation to the line of Ishmael and an extenuation of the promised blessing from Genesis 17 I still find nothing new that has not been covered either in the bible, Jewish fables or Gnostic writings.

Would you agree with this?
 
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DWA2DAY

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Though the quran view jews and christians as corrupted people(and holding corrupted scriptures), they still hold a special place in god’s heart, they are called people of the scriptures, they are still above the pagans in god’s eyes, the quran in a way view them as having the same god as the muslims. Though corrupted, their scriptures still contain some truths, and those truths are confirmed by the quran.

Please can you back you claim with referance to the Quran - specifically I would like to see the following :-
Surah stating that the people of the Book scriptures are corrupted.
A Surah that says christian can not understand the Quran.
Surha showing that Christians are corrupt people.
Surah showing that Christian and Jews are pagans.
A Surah that shows or explains what truths remain in the Bible.

I hope you do not suddenly run away from this challenge and remain silent.

Please offer a response to post # 89 or is your silence accepted as you are in agreement.
 
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DWA2DAY

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this is the way i see it; the authors of (or at least those who rewrote) the NT wanted to introduce a new god (jesus) but dont know how to reconcile having one true god (god of israel) while introducing another (jesus). they wanted to be accepted by both hebrews who are staunch monotheists, and greeks (gentiles) who find it more appealing having gods with offsprings (ie hercules, perseus etc).

If we are to accept ypur claim as noted above, how do you explain that Jesus Christ fulfilled more 100 prophecies from the old testament?
 
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spockrates

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Oh Ok I see your point.
As a final revelation from God I would have expected some new direction or at the very least some form of new covenant with Gods people, (here I specifically refer to the Jews) yet the Quran is void of this. Then if I look at it as a revelation to the line of Ishmael and an extenuation of the promised blessing from Genesis 17 I still find nothing new that has not been covered either in the bible, Jewish fables or Gnostic writings.

Would you agree with this?
I'm unfamiliar with the Gnostic writings and Jewish fables, so I can't say.
 
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spockrates

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i agree about correct interpretations of scriptures, and yes there are verses that are vague and can only be used for certain doctrines and situations through careful and in context interpretations and analysis.

the reason why i was looking for verses or even just a verse where it says there are 3 persons in 1 god explicitly is because it is the most important doctrine in christianity compared to "suicide bombing" and according to your belief, the god of the OT is the trinity god, since the god of the OT is so explicit about him being one god, one would expect jesus would do the same. anyway the discussion went in circles and seems going nowhere, though it was a valid argument i might not pursue it for now.
Yeah, sorry for going round. I'll try to steer a straighter course and get to the point! :)

So as said previously before I took us for a spin, there are five premises supporting the doctrine. I'll now add a biblical passage that seems to me to teach each premise:

  1. There is only one God. “You are my witnesses, declares the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me” (Isaiah 43:10).
  2. The Father is God. “...there is but one God the Father” (1 Corinthians 8:6).
  3. The Spirit is God. Lying to the Spirit is said to be the same as as lying to God. When a man named Ananias “lied to the Holy Spirit,” Peter points out that he had “not lied to men but to God” (Acts 5:3-4).
  4. The Son is God. The Father, speaking of the Son, says, “Your throne, O God, will last forever and forever” (Hebrews 1:8).
  5. The Father, Son and Spirit are eternally distinct. An example is Matthew 3:16-17, where the three appear as separate "persons": "And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'"
There are other biblical passages besides these, but I cited just one for each premise for the sake of keeping my reply concise, and I hope also clear and cogent. :)

Please let me know if you don't believe the biblical texts cited support the premises I've listed, or if you believe the five premises don't support the conclusion that the Bible teaches there is one God in three persons.
 
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spockrates

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Christians used to mock Muslims because the Qur'an mentions Jesus pbuh as a baby spoke from the cradle when his Mother was accused of adultery, remember Joseph, (may God be pleased with him) was elderly, so the people started speaking ill of the newly pregnant Mary, (may God be pleased with her); Jesus pbuh defended his Mother from the cradle. His first miracle and clear sign for the people.

The Qur'an also says as a child, Jesus pbuh made clay birds and blew into them, they came to life and flew away, amazing the people watching.

Made up fables said the critics of Islam until discoveries within the last few decades uncovered remains of Gospels and letters from followers of Jesus pbuh, and yes they record Jesus pbuh speaking as an infant and making clay birds as a young boy. These Gospels are labelled Gnostic and rejected by the Church. You will also find accounts of people like Peter the Disciple being amazed at the crucifixion event; he looks down to see someone resembling Jesus pbuh on the cross and is startled when he sees Jesus pbuh standing next to him, laughing at the foolishness of his enemies. Peter joins 5 other Disciples who all wrote Jesus pbuh was not crucified. If you're interested, I can post the references.
Thank you. Unfortunately, the Gnostics believed Jesus wasn't human, which isn't a belief held by either Muslims or Christians. So their other teachings are suspect, I think.
 
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