Islam Muslims Objection to the Trinity

DWA2DAY

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From the outset let’s first agree that the phrase trinity is not a biblical phrase but a theological phrase. The Muslim objection most commonly is noted that the word trinity is not found in the Bible and therefore is a fabrication by the Apostle Paul should be put to rest.

The word “Trinity” is a theological phrase that is implied in understanding the complete Biblical narrative. Secondly it is beyond human comprehension to understand the doctrine of the trinity in mere analogy and human attempts of explanation because we cannot fully comprehend the personality of God. If we were to know all there is to know and understand about God, god would then be smaller than our minds. Both Muslims and Christian agree that God is far larger than our understanding and thus the only reference we have is what has been revealed to us by God. (Isaiah 55:8-9, Job 3:26)

Part of the acceptance of God’s truth and revelation lies in our own submission to God. Ultimately we accept it to be true, not because we can make sense of God, but because God says it is so and has revealed to be. (Mathew 16:13-19) In that respect, if we have found him to be trustworthy in every degree, we have no reason to doubt him.

From a Muslim point of view the Quran is clear that our god (Allah) and your God (Yahweh) are one. However in truth Muslims do not accept this passage as the word of Allah as the Quran out right contradicts the teachings of Yahweh found in the Bible. Thus without critical analysis and the desire to retain their identity Islam assumes by default the Quran is correct and therefore the Bible is false. But fail to recognise by not accepting this they are if fact shred the Quran (15:91) in unbelief of their own Holy Text.

The typical default argument by Muslims that the Bible is corrupted and fabricated by the early Christian Church are unfounded and no proof is ever offered from our Muslim friends. (This is clearly seen by the failure of the member Muslim on this site avoidance to answer 10 questioned posed in a thread on this site - Islam - Ten facts Muslims cannot deny and Ten question Muslims cannot Answer!) The reason been simply they cannot.

Thus there only defense is to knit pick at the Bible, in an attempt to prove it wrong and thus in doing so prove the Quran to be trustworthy. This logic is what I call the half breed logic as you have only proved half the case, what if under the same set of rules one examines the other side of the equation and find it too is false.

A typical verse used and often claimed by Muslims to be the only biblical reference to the trinity is, 1 John 5:7-8, for there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood and these three are in agreement.

The Christian community has identified this passage as an interpolation and older translation read, for there are three that testify [in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one, and there are three that testify on earth] the Spirit, the water, and the blood and these three are in agreement.

For those of you who like the detail and a fuller understanding of this please visit The Textual Problem in 1 John 5:7-8 .

But the Muslim hope that this passage is the only reference to the Trinity is unfounded. Having agreed that as humans we can never fully understand God. Firstly the Bible is clear there is and can ever only be one God. We see this in Deuteronomy 6:4 “The Lord our God, the Lord is one, and Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one Faith and one testament. So how do Christian arrive at the three in one God known in theological terms the trinity? let us explore what has be revealed to us from God in the theological picture of the trinity.

In understanding the full Biblical narrative we find the concept of the trinity was progressively reveal in the Old Testament. In the creation story Genesis 1:2 we find the Holt Spirt hovering over the water, later in verse 26 we read let US make man. Genesis 3:22 the man has now become like one of US. Genesis 11:7 let US go down and confuse there language.

Going a step deeper and looking at the respective titles use in the Hebrew for God in these passages we find the use of Elohim and Yahweh. Strong’s concordance references both these are the plural with a combined occurrence of 8,818 time in the Bible. The singular for of God in Hebrew is El, Elah, or Eloah used in total only 358 times. The question arising in the mind of any alert Bible reader is why is god speaking of Himself in an overwhelming majority of the cases in the plural form? Yes our Muslim friends are quick out of the gates with it is the royal We, but is futile as this is forging to the Hebrew language.

So back to the Jewish confession of faith in Deuteronomy 6:4 “The Lord our God, the Lord in one” In Hebrew would read “Yahweh Eluhenu Yahweh echad” directly translated would read - “The Lord our Gods, the Lord in one” in essence meaning a unity. Echad is always used by Hebrew writers meant to refer to a unity or oneness. An example of this is found in Genesis 2:24 for this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one (echad) flesh.… Ezra 2:64 is another example when referring to the congregation of Israelite assembled.

A final example of the trinity in the Old Testament is Isaiah 63:7-10
I shall make mention of the loving kindnesses of the LORD, the praises of the LORD, According to all that the LORD has granted us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has granted them according to His compassion And according to the abundance of His loving kindnesses. For He said, “Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely." So He became their Saviour. In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;

Passages like this are often over looked by the superficial reader and when one takes a close look what to we find? The Son in Jesus as the Savior and the Holy Spirit. The Lord became Jesus to help the Jews in their distress and He saved and redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved the Holy Spirit.

In the beginning of Jesus Christ ministry we find the Trinity in the Holy Spirit descending like a dove and lighting on Him and God the Father saying “This is my Son, who I love: with Him I am well pleased. Mathew 3:16-17. If ever one was looking for a confirmation of the Trinity in my option this must be it, as God breaks into the universe to dwell with His creation as the Son, Jesus Christ the long awaited Messiah, the Father verbally confirms Jesus with the Helper and Comforter the Holy Spirit.

Please note in this passage the phrase “WHO I LOVE”. With reference to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8) true love manifest as an outward expression of giving. Simply put you do not but tour self a bunch of flowers because you love your wife! - you buy them follower as the outward expression of your love.

Love reaches out to another person rather than centring wholly in oneself. So if God is perfectly loving by His very nature, He must be giving Himself in love to another. But who is that other? It cannot be any created person, since creation is a result of God’s free will, not a result of His nature.

In addition created persons have not always existed. But God is eternally loving. So again created persons alone are insufficient to account for God's being perfectly loving. It therefore follows that for God to be perfectly loving it this perfect love must be internal to God Himself. In other words, God is not a single, isolated person, as Islam holds; rather God is a plurality of persons, as the Christian doctrine and theology of the Trinity holds.

At the close of Jesus Christ ministry we have confirmation of the foundation of the new covenant in the progressive revelation of the Trinity in the command of go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Mathew 28:19). Please note Jesus command is not it the NAMES (Plural), but in the NAME of = singular. Clearly indication ONE GOD who has revealed Himself as the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Thus been the three person of the unity one finds in the One True God of Love found in the Bible.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)

For my Muslim friends I would like to add – this post is not intended to strip you of your faith. But comes from a heart of assisting you to understanding our faith belief – on a topic that few people do not fully grasp. Thus I ask you, as a seeker of truth to bow your head and ask the One True God of the Universe for guidance and understanding, to open your heart to the truth, to give you a revelation, a dream of confirmation and a vision of truth. Re read my post and reply.


Remember the warning in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
 

MJFlores

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No Muslims yet? Not even one, showed up?

Well Muslims not only believe there is no trinity but they also deny that the Lord Jesus is not to be worshiped upon! I think what they think about the latter is wrong.

Well these are facts:

The last apostle who died was John. John was the only one of the original disciples not to die a violent death. Instead, he passed away peacefully in Patmos in his old age, sometime around 100 AD. Philip: Philip, the first of Jesus' disciples, became a missionary in Asia. How Did the Apostles Die?

After John died, 55 years later....

The man responsible for the trinity is none other than, Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, c. 155 – c. 240 AD. His pen name is Tertullian.

Tertullian has been called "the father of Latin Christianity" and "the founder of Western theology."

He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas). According to The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "Tertullian's trinity [is] not a triune God, but rather a triad or group of three, with God as the founding member".

After Tertullian died, 85 years later....

A similar word had been used earlier in Greek, though Tertullian gives the oldest extant use of the terminology as later incorporated into the Nicene Creed 325 AD at the 2nd Ecumenical Council, the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, or as the Athanasian Creed, or both. Tertullian - Wikipedia

I think the Muslims are not present in this forum, aren't they?
 

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DWA2DAY

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No Muslims yet? Not even one, showed up?

Well Muslims not only believe there is no trinity but they also deny that the Lord Jesus is not to be worshiped upon! I think what they think about the latter is wrong.

Well these are facts:

The last apostle who died was John. John was the only one of the original disciples not to die a violent death. Instead, he passed away peacefully in Patmos in his old age, sometime around 100 AD. Philip: Philip, the first of Jesus' disciples, became a missionary in Asia. How Did the Apostles Die?

After John died, 55 years later....

The man responsible for the trinity is none other than, Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, c. 155 – c. 240 AD. His pen name is Tertullian.

Tertullian has been called "the father of Latin Christianity" and "the founder of Western theology."

He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas). According to The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "Tertullian's trinity [is] not a triune God, but rather a triad or group of three, with God as the founding member".

After Tertullian died, 85 years later....

A similar word had been used earlier in Greek, though Tertullian gives the oldest extant use of the terminology as later incorporated into the Nicene Creed 325 AD at the 2nd Ecumenical Council, the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, or as the Athanasian Creed, or both. Tertullian - Wikipedia

I think the Muslims are not present in this forum, aren't they?

Thank you for the information, I found it quit informative.
I am glad you used the phrase that Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, pen the name. I also agree the the doctrine of the trinity was formalized at Nicene however this was not the purpose of the meeting.

Matthew 28:19 makes it clear that the trinity as we have called it was expressly taught by Jesus.
 
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MJFlores

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Thank you for the information, I found it quit informative.
I am glad you used the phrase that Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, pen the name. I also agree the the doctrine of the trinity was formalized at Nicene however this was not the purpose of the meeting.

Matthew 28:19 makes it clear that the trinity as we have called it was expressly taught by Jesus.

Since there are no Muslims to answer you and I really hate to see your thread - Muslims Objection to the Trinity to be like a long lost bone in the Bad Lands so to speak to be forgotten as threads come in. Let us discuss this.

Muslims generally do not read the bible as we do. Their forte is the Koran - which surprisingly, the Lord Jesus Christ is mentioned in many times than Mohammed.

You mentioned:
A typical verse used and often claimed by Muslims to be the only biblical reference to the trinity is, 1 John 5:7-8, for there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood and these three are in agreement.

Even these verse fails to prove the Trinity.

If we examine the context of the verses, these would appear:

1 John 5:6-10 New International Version (NIV)

This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

Breakdown:
blood.jpg

This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ.
baptism.jpg

And it is the Spirit who testifies, - God is spirit (John 4:24)
How did God testify about his Son? The picture above is a give away. Matthew 3:17 Matthew 17:5 2 Peter 1:17

God is another person who gave his testimony about his Son who is another person.

What is in agreement are the water (baptism of Jesus), the blood (sacrifice of Jesus) and testimony of the Spirit (who is God)
John424.jpg
 
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DWA2DAY

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Since there are no Muslims to answer you and I really hate to see your thread - Muslims Objection to the Trinity to be like a long lost bone in the Bad Lands so to speak to be forgotten as threads come in. Let us discuss this.

Muslims generally do not read the bible as we do. Their forte is the Koran - which surprisingly, the Lord Jesus Christ is mentioned in many times than Mohammed.

You mentioned:


Even these verse fails to prove the Trinity.

If we examine the context of the verses, these would appear:

1 John 5:6-10 New International Version (NIV)

This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

Breakdown:
View attachment 194636
This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ.
View attachment 194637
And it is the Spirit who testifies, - God is spirit (John 4:24)
How did God testify about his Son? The picture above is a give away. Matthew 3:17 Matthew 17:5 2 Peter 1:17

God is another person who gave his testimony about his Son who is another person.

What is in agreement are the water (baptism of Jesus), the blood (sacrifice of Jesus) and testimony of the Spirit (who is God)
View attachment 194638

Thank you for your reply.
However since you are not a Muslim your view and or argument is speculation and further more against the posting rules of the site.

Thus I can comment.
 
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Christin Morocco

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The quran book of muslims did not know about the trinity that the bible teach about, the islam attack the trinity based on misinformations that mohamed had, quran says that the trinity is God, the son of God and mary, Mohamed did not know that the believe of Christians from the begining is the Father, Son And the Holy Spirit.
This prove mohamed was a liar, lied about the trinity.
 
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DWA2DAY

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Sure I must agree if you as a Muslim audience a question relating to the Quran, they will agree.
What I find a dilemma is when you ask a question relating to Jesus from the Quran, like -
Why does the Quran say Jesus is the Word of God (Allah) Muslim are very quick to say the Quran is wrong, yet it is clearly stated in the Arabic form?
 
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jibreelhill

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why didnt jesus teach the trinity?!

the doctrine of the trinity is one of the most important doctrines of christianity but why didnt jesus teach the trinity explicitly?! why didnt jesus mention that there are three persons in one god explicitly?!

the god of the OT is very clear, he is one god, there is no other god besides him. not hints!


that's why different sects of christianity have different concept of jesus: INC(iglesia ni cristo philippines), oneness, trinitarians, ADD(church of god philippines), Mormonism etc. and these sects have MAJOR differences:

INC (iglesia ni cristo philippines) -has one absolute god and jesus is not god but he is savior.

onness - jesus, father and HS are the same god pyaling different roles.

trinitarians - three distinct persons in one god, and one of the persons has two natures, 100% god & 100% man.

ADD ang dating daan (church of god philippines)- three separate and distinct gods, jesus came from the "bossom" of the father therefore they share the same "sort of DNA" therefore the same god, but the father is superior to jesus (note: eli soriano, the head of this group is famous for memorizing the bible cover to cover and feared by debaters)

mormons - three distinct gods, but jesus is a literal son , one in purpose, one family, therefore "one god".
 
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DWA2DAY

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The quran book of muslims did not know about the trinity that the bible teach about, the islam attack the trinity based on misinformations that mohamed had, quran says that the trinity is God, the son of God and mary, Mohamed did not know that the believe of Christians from the begining is the Father, Son And the Holy Spirit.
This prove mohamed was a liar, lied about the trinity.

I think calling Mohammad a LIAR may be a bit harsh. I think he simply did not understand the teachings that were told to him by contemporary Jews and Christian of his time. He could not distinguish between fable and truth and thus resulted in skewed perception that is offered in the Quran.
Despite our personal views of Mohammad it is clear that God the Father, Jesuse Christ and the Holy spirit have a great love for the Arab nation and I believe it is this lack of understanding God's love that derailed Mohammad and the
 
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DWA2DAY

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why didnt jesus teach the trinity?!

the doctrine of the trinity is one of the most important doctrines of christianity but why didnt jesus teach the trinity explicitly?! why didnt jesus mention that there are three persons in one god explicitly?!

the god of the OT is very clear, he is one god, there is no other god besides him. not hints!


that's why different sects of christianity have different concept of jesus: INC(iglesia ni cristo philippines), oneness, trinitarians, ADD(church of god philippines), Mormonism etc. and these sects have MAJOR differences:

INC (iglesia ni cristo philippines) -has one absolute god and jesus is not god but he is savior.

onness - jesus, father and HS are the same god pyaling different roles.

trinitarians - three distinct persons in one god, and one of the persons has two natures, 100% god & 100% man.

ADD ang dating daan (church of god philippines)- three separate and distinct gods, jesus came from the "bossom" of the father therefore they share the same "sort of DNA" therefore the same god, but the father is superior to jesus (note: eli soriano, the head of this group is famous for memorizing the bible cover to cover and feared by debaters)

mormons - three distinct gods, but jesus is a literal son , one in purpose, one family, therefore "one god".

Mathew 28:16:20 is very clear that Jesus is talking about the trinity.
Yes I do agree with you there are many different views regarding the trinity and in fact the Bible as a whole. Yet the truth is found in your heart through prayer to the creator.
In much the same manner I could question why some Muslim pray 5 times a day and other only three and some not at all. Drawing a conclution that Islam is thus false on this bases would be unfair. Thus in the same manner you need to approach the topic, the views of Mormonism, INC or Catholics is of no help to you. We need to be focused on the teaching from our respective holy books and it is in them we will find truth, guidance and the straight path?

The Quran is clear that the Injel, Torah,and Psalms must be read. In fact Mohammad says when in doubt read the scripture that came before it.
When we do this we find in chapter 1 verse one - Genesis 1:1-4 God the Father, the firstborn and the Holy Spirit. and this them goes through all the way to Pentecost in the book of Acts. All we need to do is prayerfully read and Allah will reveal his truth to you.
 
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DWA2DAY

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John 10:30 .. One what ?
John 3:3 .. If you must be re-born of Spirit and water for salvation then the New Covenant of spiritual circumcision of the heart is only made possible by performance of God the Holy Spirit . Faith in Jesus and not works in the flesh .

One Being.
 
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Mathew 28:16:20 is very clear that Jesus is talking about the trinity.
Yes I do agree with you there are many different views regarding the trinity and in fact the Bible as a whole. Yet the truth is found in your heart through prayer to the creator.
In much the same manner I could question why some Muslim pray 5 times a day and other only three and some not at all. Drawing a conclution that Islam is thus false on this bases would be unfair. Thus in the same manner you need to approach the topic, the views of Mormonism, INC or Catholics is of no help to you. We need to be focused on the teaching from our respective holy books and it is in them we will find truth, guidance and the straight path?

i cant believe this argument! :scratch:

some Muslims pray 5 times, others 3 times, others not at all is not because they dont believe in 5 times a day it is because of many reasons like laziness, having no time etc. unlike the differences in concept of the godhead among different sects of christianity, is a matter of belief and interpretation of vague verses regarding the godhead. and besides, the number of prayers is just a small thing compared to most important doctrines such as the trinity.

if Matt 28:16-20 is very clear, there would have been no other christian beliefs regarding the godhead, the verse didnt say 3 persons in one god explicitly, it could mean oneness, in could mean 3 distinct gods etc.
 
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if Matt 28:16-20 is very clear, there would have been no other christian beliefs regarding the godhead, the verse didnt say 3 persons in one god explicitly, it could mean oneness, in could mean 3 distinct gods etc.
as salamu alaikum,

The other thing to remember about Matthew 28:16-20 is, these are orders given by Jesus pbuh to his companions before returning to Allah swt. The Great Commission, The Final Sermon. You would think every companion would have gone forth and baptised new converts in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but not one of them did such a thing. That's right, not even a single disciple of Jesus pbuh used that formula. We can conclude two things from this, they either heard no such command and these verses were 'adjusted' by later theologians or they chose to ignore their Prophet pbuh.

There is ample evidence showing later theologians were happy to add verses and fabricate complete stories. The adulteress woman found in John and the longer ending to Mark's Gospel being two cases in point. Matthew used Mark's Gospel as a template and added details to suit his own understanding of Jesus pbuh, a man he never met.

Either way, a God choosing to mislead his chosen people for Thousands of years, never explaining the Tri-head is not an option to even be considered, thus we can conclude the Trinity is the brainchild of Pagan Philosophers.
 
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One Being.
One in 'purpose'. This is confirmed when read in context:

Beginning at verse John 10:23 we read about Jesus pbuh talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

These verses prove only that Jesus pbuh and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus pbuh, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus pbuh.

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE". In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus pbuh and the Father but to describe Jesus pbuh, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus pbuh. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.

Of the verse in question, "I and the Father are One" in (John 10:30), we also need to take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus pbuh falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text: "The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '" (John 10:33).

Jesus pbuh replies to this accusation saying: "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?'" (John 10:34-36).

Jesus pbuh was referring to the following verse from the Law:
Psalm 82:6 'I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.'
 
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