Islam Muslim Leaders/people needed

[A Realist]

What is in question is why does Islam feature it to the extent that they do?

The Ottomans adopted the symbol, so it only stand to reason since the Ottomans ruled much of the Muslim world for centuries.

 

[Deus Vult!]

The Ottomans adopted the symbol, so it only stand to reason since the Ottomans ruled much of the Muslim world for centuries.

So since the Ottomans did not adopt the crescent and star from the Byzantines - as there is evidence of its usage before they conquered Constantinople - I pose the question again.

 

[Deus Vult!]

The Ottomans adopted the symbol, so it only stand to reason since the Ottomans ruled much of the Muslim world for centuries.

Here goes a quote from "WikiIslam".

"It has been claimed that it was not until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they "adopted the city's existing flag and symbol".[4]

However, in 1453 the crescent and star symbols were not a part of any known Byzantine flags,[5] and they were already widely used in different parts of the Muslim world, long before the fall of Constantinople.

A few examples include; Islamic coins from as early as the 7th century,[6] Egyptian and Syrian jewellery from the 11th century,[7][8] Persian armor of the 10th-12th century, and paintings and drawings depicting Islamic mosques from areas, which then were not covered by the Ottoman Empire and from the times before the fall of Constantinople.[9]"

Crescent Moon - WikiIslam

 

[Deus Vult!]

The Ottomans adopted the symbol, so it only stand to reason since the Ottomans ruled much of the Muslim world for centuries.

Here goes a 7th century Islamic coin called a "Drachma"
Notice the crescent and star on it. So the crescent moon was not adopted because of the Ottoman Turks conquering Byzantium and incorporating it into Islam. This coinage was created within a few decades of muhammads death. Your claim is false. Why all the lunar iconography then? Perhaps some connection to pagan moon deities such as Lah? Is it a possibility?

 

[DamianWarS]

Long before Islam and Judaism Bedouin tribes carried their gods from place to place in a box on a litter. Usually those "gods" were meteorites or pieces of meteorites. I find that fascinating in that they knew a rock that fell from the sky was special indeed.

I know where it comes from that pre-islam AP worshiped rocks. Then Muhammad comes into the picture and cleans house but he keeps one rock because it represents the one God. It is a contextualization method and perhaps during the transition worship of the rock happened but today it is a strawman argument. Muhammad was tasked with de-paganizing his kin, he keeps some forms but to point to a monotheistic system not to keep worshiping rocks. Today Muslims worship rocks as much as Christians worship crosses, it's a silly argument and it only will upset people. Muslims worship one God and only one God and they proclaim this in prayer daily. This thread just shows the amount of ignorance there is. If you want to learn about Islam than talk to a Muslim, don't talk down to a Muslim.

 

[Deus Vult!]

I know where it comes from that pre-islam AP worshiped rocks. Then Muhammad comes into the picture and cleans house but he keeps one rock because it represents the one God. It is a contextualization method and perhaps during the transition worship of the rock happened but today it is a strawman argument. Muhammad was tasked with de-paganizing his kin, he keeps some forms but to point to a monotheistic system not to keep worshiping rocks. Today Muslims worship rocks as much as Christians worship crosses, it's a silly argument and it only will upset people. Muslims worship one God and only one God and they proclaim this in prayer daily. This thread just shows the amount of ignorance there is. If you want to learn about Islam than talk to a Muslim, don't talk down to a Muslim.

No you are in error. Today muslims kiss 8 pieces of a rock that are suspended in wax. The black stone in the Kaaba is not even one rock. There are 8 little pieces of the rock. So I guess that is symbolic of 8 gods according to your logic. Muslims kiss these pieces believing that in doing so their sins are forgiven. No Christians believe that kissing crosses forgive their sins. Only through the Sacrament of Confession and through the reception of the Blessed Sacrament (the Eucharist) are sins forgiven explicitly. How can we learn Islam from a muslim when they don't even know the beliefs of Islam. I can go talk to a muslim right now and they wouldn't know a quarter of sahih Hadiths I could bring up. You are as ignorant about Islam as they are in fact.

Arrows pointing to the pieces of the black stone.

Hadith about kissing the black stone:
Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (s.a.w) say:
“Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”
(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

 

[A Realist]

Here goes a quote from "WikiIslam".

"It has been claimed that it was not until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they "adopted the city's existing flag and symbol".[4]

However, in 1453 the crescent and star symbols were not a part of any known Byzantine flags,[5] and they were already widely used in different parts of the Muslim world, long before the fall of Constantinople.

A few examples include; Islamic coins from as early as the 7th century,[6] Egyptian and Syrian jewellery from the 11th century,[7][8] Persian armor of the 10th-12th century, and paintings and drawings depicting Islamic mosques from areas, which then were not covered by the Ottoman Empire and from the times before the fall of Constantinople.[9]"

Crescent Moon - WikiIslam

You're absolutely correct. Many ancient uses of this symbol even before Islam.

 

[Thomas White]

"There were no Chaldeans nor any UR in the time of Abraham" - You then are guilty of rejecting the inspired word of God. The book of Genesis clearly states that Ur is where Abram migrated from.

"Most scholars think Terah was from URFA near Haran" - You then put your lot with "scholars" who re-write the Sacred text with their opinions?

"South Arabian Arabic dates back 3000 years" - This is not that far back at all. Even Greek is dated to 1500 BC. Aramaic is older than Arabic, it is not even disputed. Islamic scholars that are fluent with Quranic Arabic would tell you that Arabic is borrowed heavily from a preexisting Aramaic. Ancient Hebrew is older that Aramaic even still.

"People who study archaeolgy and tools, geology etc. think the Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula began migrating in waves to the Levant and Mesopotamia 10,000 years ago" - There is a ton of scholarship by creationist scientists that wouldn't date the earth older than 10,000 years. Would you believe that as a possibility also? Or is the earth billions of years old as the majority of scientists would have you believe? How about global warming? Is that "science" that you believe also?
It is so easy to see what people believe after you hear them speak for 10 minutes. You are predictable.
You should not worry about how old the earth is. Rather you should address sin in your heart. You have a serious problem in that you cannot recognize sin. You were advising a man yesterday that he should celebrate the sex he is having outside of marriage. You contradict the Apostles. You contradict the Sacred Scripture overall. You choose the teachings of men rather than the teaching of the Apostles and Prophets. Sad.

Just want to weigh in on your last sentence... the apostles and prophets were also men. Don't revere them. Revere God.

 

[Thomas White]

Here goes a 7th century Islamic coin called a "Drachma"
Notice the crescent and star on it. So the crescent moon was not adopted because of the Ottoman Turks conquering Byzantium and incorporating it into Islam. This coinage was created within a few decades of muhammads death. Your claim is false. Why all the lunar iconography then? Perhaps some connection to pagan moon deities such as Lah? Is it a possibility?

Drachmas are Greek...

 

[Deus Vult!]

Drachmas are Greek...

Meant Durhams. Thank you for correction.

 

[Deus Vult!]

Just want to weigh in on your last sentence... the apostles and prophets were also men. Don't revere them. Revere God.

We most certainly ought to revere the Apostles. You revere them when you read their epistles and believe that it was through them that the Holy Spirit spoke. The Saints and Apostles are not in competition with God.These were men true. But by revering them we revere God. Just as any Dulia that is shown to the saints is a revering ultimately of God, Who called them to holiness and used them for His own purposes.
The works of the flesh would compel you to think you are doing God service by instructing the Christian to not revere the Saints and Apostles. The works of the Spirit would view these matters as I have done in this post. Revere God and His Apostles and Saints; not John Wesley who protested the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. That is for sure.
Peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

 

[th1bill]

How about we use you as a sort of test, most people here are against the challenge. I will begin to pray for you now. If you can be healed surely anyone can. If you can’t then there is no point to my challenge. But if you are healed, then God is with us. Is that ok that I begin to pray now?

I can be healed... if it is the Perfect Will of YHWH! And I am not aware, as a believer in the One Triune Elohim, that you need my permission to pray for me. FYI: I and six other men have prayed for and laid hands on people that were Miraculously Healed. We prayed for one lady that went into surgery for the removal of the Tumor the Doctor discovered that was the size of a Soft Ball but when he cut her it had disappeared. I know of a Christian Man that, without the publicity, has watched a man walk in the door, fell dead, and prayed for YHWH's mercy and the man rode home with his wife.

I know YHWH interceeds and I know He does not heal everyone. Do you have a time period before I get out of bed with no more Vertigo and have the strength to walk once more?

 

[Deus Vult!]

You're absolutely correct. Many ancient uses of this symbol even before Islam.

What you just said was "absolutely correct" refuted your claim that the Ottoman Turks only adopted the symbol once conquering Byzantines. Thank you for admitting that I am correct.

 

[Thomas White]

We most certainly ought to revere the Apostles. You revere them when you read their epistles and believe that it was through them that the Holy Spirit spoke. The Saints and Apostles are not in competition with God.These were men true. But by revering them we revere God. Just as any Dulia that is shown to the saints is a revering ultimately of God, Who called them to holiness and used them for His own purposes.
The works of the flesh would compel you to think you are doing God service by instructing the Christian to not revere the Saints and Apostles. The works of the Spirit would view these matters as I have done in this post. Revere God and His Apostles and Saints; not John Wesley who protested the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. That is for sure.
Peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

Revere no man. Revere God. Put your faith In Christ Jesus. The apostles cannot save you. They were as flawed as you and I. We have all been called to God. Some take the step. Some do not. The work of the flesh would be elevating a human to a spot of reverence when all focus should be on God.

 

[Thomas White]

Meant Durhams. Thank you for correction.

Dirham, sometimes referred to as darchmon in Jewish texts, were coins smelted in numerous caliphates, but they were also smelted throughout the Byzantine Empire.

 

[summerville]

I know where it comes from that pre-islam AP worshiped rocks. Then Muhammad comes into the picture and cleans house but he keeps one rock because it represents the one God. It is a contextualization method and perhaps during the transition worship of the rock happened but today it is a strawman argument. Muhammad was tasked with de-paganizing his kin, he keeps some forms but to point to a monotheistic system not to keep worshiping rocks. Today Muslims worship rocks as much as Christians worship crosses, it's a silly argument and it only will upset people. Muslims worship one God and only one God and they proclaim this in prayer daily. This thread just shows the amount of ignorance there is. If you want to learn about Islam than talk to a Muslim, don't talk down to a Muslim.

Of course its a silly argument and an insulting one.

When Muhammed threw out all the idols he left an icon to the Virgin Mary..

 

[summerville]

Here goes a 7th century Islamic coin called a "Drachma"
Notice the crescent and star on it. So the crescent moon was not adopted because of the Ottoman Turks conquering Byzantium and incorporating it into Islam. This coinage was created within a few decades of muhammads death. Your claim is false. Why all the lunar iconography then? Perhaps some connection to pagan moon deities such as Lah? Is it a possibility?

Drachma, silver coin of ancient Greece, dating from about the mid-6th century bc, and the former monetary unit of modern Greece. The drachma was one of the world’s earliest coins. Its name derives from the Greek verb meaning “to grasp,” and its original value was equivalent to that of a handful of arrows.

drachma | Definition, History, & Facts | Britannica
www.britannica.com/topic/drachma

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I can be healed... if it is the Perfect Will of YHWH! And I am not aware, as a believer in the One Triune Elohim, that you need my permission to pray for me. FYI: I and six other men have prayed for and laid hands on people that were Miraculously Healed. We prayed for one lady that went into surgery for the removal of the Tumor the Doctor discovered that was the size of a Soft Ball but when he cut her it had disappeared. I know of a Christian Man that, without the publicity, has watched a man walk in the door, fell dead, and prayed for YHWH's mercy and the man rode home with his wife.

I know YHWH interceeds and I know He does not heal everyone. Do you have a time period before I get out of bed with no more Vertigo and have the strength to walk once more?

I am grateful to you that we can pray for you. As for a time period that is in God’s hands, I normally just begin prayer, and do not give up praying, until healing comes. I can not force God to heal, but I am hopeful.

 

[Deus Vult!]

Revere no man. Revere God. Put your faith In Christ Jesus. The apostles cannot save you. They were as flawed as you and I. We have all been called to God. Some take the step. Some do not. The work of the flesh would be elevating a human to a spot of reverence when all focus should be on God.

God Himself washed the Apostle's feet when the Apostles wanted to wash His feet. God Himself became man through the womb of a human mother named St.Mary when He could have just appeared. Your approach is blind of humility. You cannot see it. Seeing God in mankind is the most humble and loving thing you can do. It is what pierces the center of the devil. Your approach of focusing on God alone to the point of rejecting those in His economy is not Catholic. It is not first century Christianity. It is not the Christianity of the Apostles.

 

[Deus Vult!]

Dirham, sometimes referred to as darchmon in Jewish texts, were coins smelted in numerous caliphates, but they were also smelted throughout the Byzantine Empire.

Yes I corrected myself after you pointed out that I listed the wrong name for the coin. Thanks for all the extra information. I didn't really help though as I was only using the image of a Dirham to make my point to another poster.