Music

[Hammster]

I apologise for those errors, but they were working when I posted them. Here they are again:

• 'The Myth of Amazing Grace', http://www.everydaycitizen.com/2007/08/the_myth_of_amazing_grace.html.

• 'Did the Wesleys use tavern music?', http://www.wayoflife.org/database/did_the_wesleys_use_tavern_music.html.

Oz

This really doesn't affect the point I was making, assuming that this info is accurate (it's really no more sourced than my comment). And I didn't claim that it was set it African music, or make a claim about the Wesley's. So this is a red herring. But I'll show you that despite that, we can still have a discussion.

My point is that it's not the music that matters. Newton didn't write the music and it was sang to a tune of the day. If it was indeed sang to a bar tune, it wouldn't affect the truths in the song.

 

[OzSpen]

This really doesn't affect the point I was making, assuming that this info is accurate (it's really no more sourced than my comment). And I didn't claim that it was set it African music, or make a claim about the Wesley's. So this is a red herring. But I'll show you that despite that, we can still have a discussion.

My point is that it's not the music that matters. Newton didn't write the music and it was sang to a tune of the day. If it was indeed sang to a bar tune, it wouldn't affect the truths in the song.

You still have not documented your statement, 'Amazing Grace was sung to a common bar tune of the time'. I provided evidence to contradict this. So, I did not engage in a red herring fallacy. I addressed the statement you made. Seems to me that you don't know the nature of a red herring fallacy.

 

[Hammster]

You still have not documented your statement, 'Amazing Grace was sung to a common bar tune of the time'. I provided evidence to contradict this. So, I did not engage in a red herring fallacy. I addressed the statement you made. Seems to me that you don't know the nature of a red herring fallacy.

You didn't provide anything but a blog post. And I'm under no obligation to document anything as my point was made, and even supported by your link if it's to be believed.

Perhaps you should address my point instead of engaging in red herrings.

 

[OzSpen]

..

 

[OzSpen]

When everyone sings a hymn in church, notice that EVERYONE sings unto the Lord. Nobody gets to glorify themselves....it's all glorifying God instead. However, in "christian music"....it's glorifying the lead singer, drummers, guitarists etc.

To even bring satanic wordly music into the church.....the pastor is NOT feeding the flock/doing his job.

morse86,

As this thread has developed, some have raised the issue of older hymns being sung to bar tunes.

Here's the problem, as I see it. Let's say I take the tune of Kenny Rogers, The Gambler (recorded in 1976), and use it for a Christ-centred, God honouring song/hymn for which I write the words. I know this Kenny Rogers' tune reasonably well as I'm a former radio DJ and I played it many times over when it was a hit - and some time after that. Bobby Bare originally recorded it, as did Johnny Cash.

What happens is that the hymn words become contaminated with the words of The Gambler when the tune is used. People who know the tune find it difficult to remove the original, secular lyrics from the mind when singing. This is how worldly themes can infiltrate Christian music when secular tunes are used.

In fact, I find it a lazy approach to music when Christian lyrics are not given to a Christian musician to compose a new tune to fit the words. For example, I could write lyrics today but I would be useless (these days) in composing music to suit a song. I would need to ask a Christian muso to compose the music. My wife is an excellent jazz, country and church pianist, but she is not a composer of music.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You didn't provide anything but a blog post. And I'm under no obligation to document anything as my point was made, and even supported by your link if it's to be believed.

Perhaps you should address my point instead of engaging in red herrings.

The blog post link I provided contained information that contradicted what you stated about 'Amazing Grace'. Trying to brush my post aside by saying I provided nothing but 'a blog post', is a poor way of dealing with the content of the link I gave. You did not deal with that information, thus ignoring it for whatever reason you chose.

When I provide information to contradict your view, I'm addressing your point and I AM NOT engaging in the use of a red herring fallacy. That's a false accusation by you.

What have you done in your response to me? You have used a begging the question logical fallacy. Of course you would conclude by rejecting my evidence to contradict your view on Amazing Grace and bar tune because that's the view your started with. Then you conclude the same way, in spite of the evidence I provided. You have engaged in the fallacy of circular reasoning - begging the question.

We cannot have a logical conversation about this issue when you resort to the use of a logical fallacy and make a false charge against me concerning a logical fallacy I did not commit.

Oz

 

[Hammster]

The blog post link I provided contained information that contradicted what you stated about 'Amazing Grace'. Trying to brush my post aside by saying I provided nothing but 'a blog post', is a poor way of dealing with the content of the link I gave. You did not deal with that information, thus ignoring it for whatever reason you chose.

When I provide information to contradict your view, I'm addressing your point and I AM NOT engaging in the use of a red herring fallacy. That's a false accusation by you.

What have you done in your response to me? You have used a begging the question logical fallacy. Of course you would conclude by rejecting my evidence to contradict your view on Amazing Grace and bar tune because that's the view your started with. Then you conclude the same way, in spite of the evidence I provided. You have engaged in the fallacy of circular reasoning - begging the question.

We cannot have a logical conversation about this issue when you resort to the use of a logical fallacy and make a false charge against me concerning a logical fallacy I did not commit.

Oz

You're the only one who seems to have a problem discussing things with me.

 

[now faith]

You're the only one who seems to have a problem discussing things with me.

Are you serious? The only one?

Lol just saying hello

 

[OzSpen]

You're the only one who seems to have a problem discussing things with me.

I hope you are joking. I've been here for years and have seen many people have problems discussing with you. Please don't pull my leg on that one. It's whistling in the wind.

 

[Hammster]

I hope you are joking. I've been here for years and have seen many people have problems discussing with you. Please don't pull my leg on that one. It's whistling in the wind.

My point being that you are the only one who uses the excuse that I (and quite a few others) are not using logic to suit your needs and that you cannot seem to bring yourself to continue the discussion. My point wasn't that everyone agrees with me. I give that everyone has the right to be wrong.

 

[OzSpen]

My point being that you are the only one who uses the excuse that I (and quite a few others) are not using logic to suit your needs and that you cannot seem to bring yourself to continue the discussion. My point wasn't that everyone agrees with me. I give that everyone has the right to be wrong.

You've missed my point again. I did not complain about your lack of use of logic to suit my needs. That's your straw man.

My point was I was having a discussion about music and you used a red herring fallacy, which is fallacious reasoning when dealing with that topic.

You sure don't like my drawing to your attention the erroneous logical reasoning (i.e. logical fallacies) you use at times when engaging in discussion with me. If you continue to use logical fallacies when conversing with me, I'll draw them to your attention as logical discussions are impossible to have when you use fallacious reasoning.

Bye, bye,
Oz

 

[Hammster]

You've missed my point again. I did not complain about your lack of use of logic to suit my needs. That's your straw man.

My point was I was having a discussion about music and you used a red herring fallacy, which is fallacious reasoning when dealing with that topic.

You sure don't like my drawing to your attention the erroneous logical reasoning (i.e. logical fallacies) you use at times when engaging in discussion with me. If you continue to use logical fallacies when conversing with me, I'll draw them to your attention as logical discussions are impossible to have when you use fallacious reasoning.

Bye, bye,
Oz

Bye.

 

[now faith]

My point being that you are the only one who uses the excuse that I (and quite a few others) are not using logic to suit your needs and that you cannot seem to bring yourself to continue the discussion. My point wasn't that everyone agrees with me. I give that everyone has the right to be wrong.

I respect your humble confession of being wrong.

 

[now faith]

You still have not documented your statement, 'Amazing Grace was sung to a common bar tune of the time'. I provided evidence to contradict this. So, I did not engage in a red herring fallacy. I addressed the statement you made. Seems to me that you don't know the nature of a red herring fallacy.

I have been told that John Newton ,before he was born again that he would kick the soap boxes out from under Preachers at the port.
As the story goes after salvation he stood on a soapbox and preached.

Is this accurate?

 

[Hammster]

I respect your humble confession of being wrong.

This isn't about me. Please stay on topic.

 

[now faith]

This isn't about me. Please stay on topic.

I was replying to your post on logic,what is the topic music or logic ?

 

[OzSpen]

I have been told that John Newton ,before he was born again that he would kick the soap boxes out from under Preachers at the port.
As the story goes after salvation he stood on a soapbox and preached.

Is this accurate?

That's for you to provide us with a historical source to demonstrate this to be true, false or unknown.

 

[Melissa Bellazain]

Ozspen,

CFF manager posted a message to you about that problem.

 

[OzSpen]

Ozspen,

CFF manager posted a message to you about that problem.

Thanks.

 

[Uncle Tommy]

Reminds me of moderating debates.