Music: If it feels good, do it!

[OzSpen]

argument is in reference to those churches which have music bands with drummers and guitarists.. it doesnt attract youths but certainly make them comfortable, the music is the same with the world's music. Furthermore did anyone researched on the origins of drum beats? it originated from voodoo practice whereby they would beat a rhythm during their witchcraft worship. How many churches still practice old fashion hymns with just an organ or piano?

How does your view of drums fit with the use of cymbals? They are pretty loud instruments:

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 Samuel 6:5 David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.1 Chronicles 13:8 David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, timbrels, cymbals and trumpets.1 Chronicles 15:16 David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their fellow Levites as musicians to make a joyful sound with musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals.Ezra 3:10 When the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests in their vestments and with trumpets, and the Levites (the sons of Asaph) with cymbals, took their places to praise the LORD, as prescribed by David king of Israel.Nehemiah 12:27 At the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem, the Levites were sought out from where they lived and were brought to Jerusalem to celebrate joyfully the dedication with songs of thanksgiving and with the music of cymbals, harps and lyres.

New International Version ©2011 by Biblica

As for churches that sing hymns with piano and/or organ, there are not many around my region. However, the last 2 churches I have attended, including the current one, sing hymns from hymn books (now on digital projectors). One was Baptist and was packed to the rafters with people, including lots of young people. There is no need to do thrash music to attract the youth at that Baptist Church.

The other, the one I currently attend, is Presbyterian. The congregation is elderly with a few young families - but not too many - and the numbers are dwindling. That has more to do with the lack of outreach than the nature of the music. I know of another Presbyterian church in Brisbane that has thrash music with expository preaching. A friend I know attends that church and puts up with the music so that he can be edified by the preaching.

These are some of the issues in this discussion that my wife and I consider when attending a church:

1. Does the service focus on worship of the trinitarian Lord God Almighty or is it human-centred? We seek the former.
2. Is the content of the lyrics of the songs, hymns and spiritual songs Christ-centred and promoting sound doctrine? I'm finding many contemporary songs to have too many trite, subjective lyrics. There are a few with these characteristics in the older songs as well.
3. Does the music drown out the lyrics or is the music meant to be an accompaniment to help with the adequate singing of the hymns/songs?
4. Are the melodies singable for the average person who attends a church service? I'm a very average singer and I find many of the contemporary songs to be not meant for congregational singing, but are meant for performance by a group and band.
5. Does the music support or detract from the message of the preacher/teacher?
6. How much of the music is influenced by the nature of music in the contemporary culture?

To be honest, I am concerned at the direction in which many evangelical churches are going with music and preaching content in my part of the world. Contemporary music, light lyrics and topical sermons are the order of the day in evangelical churches where I live.


In Christ, Oz

​

 

[Hammster]

Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for God’s glory. (1 Corinthians 10:31 HCSB)

Even using drums to worship the Creator who gave us music.

 

[Hammster]

I wonder how many churches who don't use instruments because it's not what Jesus would have done, use pews?

 

[strelok0017]

Our freedom shouldn't make others stumble. In 1 Corinthians Paul says that to those under the law he became as the one under the law (even tho he wasn't under it) so that he may win them. Obviously, I'm not saying that anti-instrument guys are not disciples of Christ, but that love is above the law. No way, you say. Yes, because Christ is also and the law, as interpreted by St Paul, is only a shadow of Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for God’s glory. (1 Corinthians 10:31 HCSB)

Even using drums to worship the Creator who gave us music.

Here is an interesting article on "Drums & the Bible" that provides some explanations of percussion use in the Psalms.

The NIV 2011, 2 Samuel 6:5 states, "David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals".

The 1978 edition of the NIV translated this word, 'castanets', as ‘songs’. Youngblood explains: ‘”Songs” (perhaps of victory….), the singular of Hebrew for which is sometimes equivalent to “music” (cf. 1 Chron 25:6-7) introduces the list of accompanying musical instruments that follows’ (Youngblood 1992:870). It does not make sense to me that the 2011 NIV translated with ‘castanets’, which is not common English here in Australia, when ‘songs’ would be much clearer to the contemporary reader. The ESV translates as ‘songs’ but notes that this is from the ‘Septuagint, 1 Chronicles 13:8, Hebrew fir trees’.

‘The systrum, mentioned only here in the OT, was used widely throughout the ancient Near East, especially in Egypt. It consisted of a handle fitted to “a metal loop with holes through which pieces of wire were inserted and bent at the ends. Since the holes were larger than the wire, the instrument produced a jingling sound when shaken. The Hebrew word comes from a verb which means ‘shake;’ so it is reasonable to suppose that the mea’an’im were sistra (Sellers, “Musical Instruments of Israel,” pp. 44-45)’ (Youngblood 1992:870).

‘”Cymbals” were of two kinds, one set of which were struck vertically (harsh/noisy cymbals) and the other horizontally (clear cymbals). The former may be reflected in the “clash of cymbals” and the latter in the “resounding cymbals” of Psalm 150:5. The cymbals here were probably clear cymbals (similar to but smaller than their modern descendants, bronze examples of which (cf. 1 Chron. 15:19) archaeologists have found at several cites in Israel (e.g. Beth Shemesh …; Hazor. While not mentioning sistrums, the parallel passage in 1 Chronicles 13:8 concludes the list with “trumpets,” resulting in a total of six different musical instruments used to accompany the first attempt to bring the ark from Kiriath Jearim to Jerusalem’ (Youngblood 1992:870).

Reference
Youngblood, R F 1992, 1, 2 Samuel, in F E Gaebelein (gen ed), The expositor’s Bible commentary, vol 3, 553-1104. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[AndOne]

It's the equivalent of gossiping behind my back. If you have an issue with me and something I wrote, deal with me directly by writing to me and NOT to somebody else.

Oz

I have no issue with you at all -

 

[guuila]

argument is in reference to those churches which have music bands with drummers and guitarists.. it doesnt attract youths but certainly make them comfortable, the music is the same with the world's music. Furthermore did anyone researched on the origins of drum beats? it originated from voodoo practice whereby they would beat a rhythm during their witchcraft worship. How many churches still practice old fashion hymns with just an organ or piano?

I am a drummer who has played in countless bands and genres from metal to jazz (in my lost days), even Christian bands, and I'm not a youth. The drums make me feel comfortable. Is there something wrong with me? Am I practicing voodoo? If I eat meat sacrificed to idols at the local Thai restaurant am I sinning?

 

[guuila]

I wonder how many churches who don't use instruments because it's not what Jesus would have done, use pews?

Jesus didn't use electricity so anyone who uses electricity in their church is sinning.

 

[guuila]

Drums were used and invented by the voodoo people to invite the evil spirits and black magic worship, and if you justify it as something normal that can be learnt by Churches to use.. by all means do so... Something invented for witchcraft ? to be implemented in churches? remove the drums, remove the electronic guitars, and if faith stands strong, then thats true faith.. if one fails to be in the presence of the Lord without the presences of music, then something is wrong..
2nd Corinthians 11:4," For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him"

So is it fair that acceptance of voodoo practices are well good??The spirit of voodoo??

The electronic device you're using to type on was probably constructed by a Taoist or Buddhist in China somewhere. The servers used to run christianforums.com are probably maintained by a secular web hosting company that employs God-hating atheists. Why are you dabbling in Buddhist and Atheistic practices? Do you really think it's ok for Christians to do this?

So is it fair that acceptance of Buddhist practices are well good?? The spirit of Buddha??

 

[strelok0017]

The reason why it's impossible to make the use of musical instruments illegal in the Church is because there is no part of the Bible that says so. Even appealing to history to support that is bad. None of the puritan commentators I've read agree. They are very careful but musical instruments are good and many of them openly admit that.

 

[guuila]

The reason why it's impossible to make the use of musical instruments illegal in the Church is because there is no part of the Bible that says so. Even appealing to history to support that is bad. None of the puritan commentators I've read agree. They are very careful but musical instruments are good and many of them openly admit that.

I'm not sure why instruments are evil on Sunday mornings but perfectly fine the rest of the week to these folks.

 

[ST1TCH]

Drums were used and invented by the voodoo people to invite the evil spirits and black magic worship, and if you justify it as something normal that can be learnt by Churches to use.. by all means do so... Something invented for witchcraft ? to be implemented in churches? remove the drums, remove the electronic guitars, and if faith stands strong, then thats true faith.. if one fails to be in the presence of the Lord without the presences of music, then something is wrong..

Ah, a simple google search would enlighten you that you're wrong about the creation of drums, unless voodoo was around in 6000BC

World's Oldest Musical Instruments

And let me get this straight, you're fine with piano, organ and possibly other instruments but not electric instruments and drums? So you're not a no-instruments-whatsoever person, you've just created a notion in your mind that certain instruments are wrong even though there's no verses to support it. You're also evidently a KJV only person who thinks the rest of us using ESV, NIV, etc are heathens.

Yeah, I guess electric guitars can't be used since they weren't used in the OT or NT. Oh wait, what's that you say? They didn't have electricity then and these instruments weren't invented yet? Huh...

I'll bet you're one of those that still watches the videos that were rammed down my throat in the 80's about how all secular music is devil music and there's hidden satanic messages in Beatles songs, etc. Right?


As I think I said in the first few pages of this thread, I think you and others would have been very uncomfortable in the praise and worship services of King David, as described in Psalms 150. You think drums are bad, imagine worshiping with clashing cymbals all around you...and *gasp* people dancing...

 

[strelok0017]

I'm not sure why instruments are evil on Sunday mornings but perfectly fine the rest of the week to these folks.

Maybe their conscience has a part in this scruple. They are misinformed and some think that if God gives something to be freely used, He does so to test us so we would say no to it and if we can't, we are tormented by our conscience. I can think of no other reason but as John Calvin said, scruples are hard to escape.

 

[now faith]

"So now that you cannot align Satan as the evil God of music,you may want to reference him for what he is.
A defeated foe,that only by your permission can influence your life."

To this statement, i agree Satan is a defeated foe, but doesnt mean Satan is a weak foe. The statement 'only by your permission can influence your life', is also not accurate. It is not by our permission, but by the permission of God, as much portrayed in the life of Job. Now, defeated foe doesnt mean useless foe. As we can see the lives of prophets in the old testament, David was one with extreme faith. And did King David sin? Of cos we all know why King David sin, because he fail to obey God's will and also succumbed to his own lusts.. In many ways, music can be used to satisfy ones lust, if not careful enough.


You quoted ezekiel 28:2 to me. In humility, i can tell you there are no perfection in churches, may it be Baptists, charismatics, anglicans, lutherans.. (Do take note i skipped catholics, which is totally is not in the category). But, all i try to raise out is a very logical point based on the Bible to be more aware about the choice of music christians nowadays listen to and the choice of Bible.

I dont think it is different around the world. I conclude it to be the same. Throughout the world, how many Christian singers are being exalted? How many Christian artists are being praised and worshipped? IS THIS RIGHT??? Even John the Baptist says in John 3:30," He must increase, but I must decrease." Should churches nowadays EXALT the singer more than the CREATOR??? Should churches nowadays compromise and allow ungodly elements to b incorporated?? Or should churches strictly practice 2nd Corinthians 6:14, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Zane there is nothing evil about drums,good music,money or anything thing else that people want to create evil from.
Its stupid people! They beat drums to evil chants,they make idols out of rock stars they put money before God.
The Church's role is not to control every aspect of a persons life that they deem to be wrong.

When you teach on such shallow things,you attention is misplace,your commission is to preach salvation not dam,nation.

You call things bale or what ever is spells that are not in context of the Word ,yet it is your assumption these things are relevant to Bible verse.

This is man made passed down teaching,the Bible simply does not support assumption.

 

[now faith]

There has been a huge falling away from the principles of God in America.

Bad teaching,demonizing,and making God to be more like Allah,in persecutions.

We need to teach Christ and redemption, not make a mockery of Church by ranting about pants or drums or how much is to much money.

Church's and their congregations are representing Christ,is this the way he wants people to see him?

You do not have to sugar coat or change Gods Word,but don't twist it cause we are losing people to false religion lots of people.
Its time we look inward and stop blaming the devil,giving him credit for our lack of spiritual discernment.

Our Lord condemned legalism we should too.

Its not drums that drive people away its what is being said from the pulpits.

Those who are in Christ are lead by the spirit not the flesh,it is unnatural for a Godly person to want flesh.

Any person can go astray but it is their choice to walk from the Will of God.

People are not stupid and are much more informed today,convict and challenge drives them away in droves.

 

[OzSpen]

I have no issue with you at all -

That is a false statement.

It was you who wrote of me in #165,

Funny - he appears to agree with you on this issue after all. Guess once he figured out the proponents of this were Calvinist he would jump ship...

I didn't come down in the last shower!

Oz

 

[AndOne]

That is a false statement.

It was you who wrote of me in #165,

I didn't come down in the last shower!

Oz

No friend - it was an assumption based on an observation - that you were quick to disagree with Hamm simply on the basis of the fact that he was a Calvinist. Now it would appear you want to villainize me - probably because I'm a Calvinist. Let it go bro - life is too short...

 

[OzSpen]

No friend - it was an assumption based on an observation - that you were quick to disagree with Hamm simply on the basis of the fact that he was a Calvinist. Now it would appear you want to villainize me - probably because I'm a Calvinist. Let it go bro - life is too short...

I do hope you are taking your own medicine.

I will pursue this no further.

Oz

 

[AndOne]

I do hope you are taking your own medicine.

I will pursue this no further.

Oz

Great! - Just remember it wasn't I who stirred the pot initially...

 

[Hammster]

So are you saying that there was no continuity from Jewish OT worship to Jewish worship in NT times?

Oz

No, I'm not saying that there was or wasn't. Whether or not there was or wasn't is irrelevant to the discussion.

And then you said you disagreed, without further comment. What exactly did you disagree with?