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Multiple Fathers in Bible?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Godistruth1, May 9, 2018.

  1. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Last edited: May 9, 2018
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  2. Nihilist Virus

    Nihilist Virus Infectious idea

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    Who was Muhammad's wife?

    1. Safiyya bint Huyayy
    2. Maymunah bint al-Harith
    3. Juwayriyya bint al-Harith
    4. Ramla bint Abi Sufyan
    5. Zaynab bint Jahsh
    6. Hind bint Abi Umayya
    7. Hafsa bint Umar
    8. Zaynab bint Khuzayma
    9. Sawda bint Zam'a
    10. Aisha bint Abi Bakr (a toddler)
    11. Khadija bint Khuwaylid
     
  3. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please make another thread in an Islamic forum for that or let's discuss in PM. For now, can you answer the question!
     
  4. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    Because the Bible is written by men and often contradicts itself. Surprised?
     
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  5. Nihilist Virus

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    I appreciate the sentiment, and you sound reasonable. However, I don't bother to ever take Muslims seriously because they are not only allowed to lie in order to advance Islam, but in fact are expected to do so. Therefore earnest conversation is literally pointless.
     
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  6. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please answer the question asked.
     
  7. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    Because, quite simply, the words "son of" and "beget" (or "the father of") in genealogies often simply means "descendant of" or "ancestor of", respectively. Notice that Jesus is called "Son of David" numerous times in the New Testament. Yet no one ever thinks this is claiming that Jesus was literally David's son.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking the Biblical writers wrote like modern historians. They had their own culture, their own way of thinking, and their own writing styles.
     
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  8. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If that's how it is then how will you know who is the father? Every time its says beget or son of its not the son/daughter? Begat only means gave birth to. It only means father. Also its no reason for authors to mention son of if its were not actually the son. If you have proof that begat/son of actually means ancestor, please provide the proof from bible
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  9. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    Here's an article with some information about it:
    6. Coming to Grips with Genealogies (Genesis 5:1-32)
    One key thing is that it points out the fact that we have genealogies from other ancient cultures where we know they aren't continuous, they have left names out. It was a common practice in the ancient world.

    If you want to disprove it, go ahead and try. Your say-so doesn't quite cut it.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  10. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My question is not about skipping genealogies but its specifically said who is the father and they are different!
     
  11. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    Which was already explained to you.
     
  12. Nihilist Virus

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    I'm going to be a bit off topic here, but with regards to your second paragraph, what would you say about when the author of Matthew quotes, for instance, Hosea 11:1 or Isaiah 7:14? Clearly, from a modern perspective, he's taking the passages out of context. But in the ancient perspective, maybe he's being poetic. Do you think it would be a good thing to get the message out to the other Christians that the Bible doesn't contain any legitimate prophecies?
     
  13. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    Out of context from a "modern" perspective? I think you mean from a "modern nonchristian's" perspective, which many modern people do not share.

    I have no reason to accept your claim that the Bible has no legitimate prophecies.
     
  14. Nihilist Virus

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    I'll make a thread on it when I have the time. I'll send you a private message when it's up if you're interested.
     
  15. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Can we take one at a time?

    "Heli" is Mary's father, and thus Joseph becomes the "son" in law [as the two become "one flesh"], just as "David" became the "son" in law of King "Saul", having married Saul's daughter, "Michal", see:

    1 Samuel 24:16 KJB - And it came to pass, when David had made an end of speaking these words unto Saul, that Saul said, Is this thy voice, my son David? And Saul lifted up his voice, and wept.

    1 Samuel 18:18 KJB - And David said unto Saul, Who am I? and what is my life, or my father's family in Israel, that I should be son in law to the king?
    Another for instance, see Naomi and Ruth:

    Ruth 2:2 KJB - And Ruth the Moabitess said unto Naomi, Let me now go to the field, and glean ears of corn after him in whose sight I shall find grace. And she said unto her, Go, my daughter.

    Ruth 1:22 KJB - So Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter in law, with her, which returned out of the country of Moab: and they came to Bethlehem in the beginning of barley harvest.​

    Scripture [KJB] does this all of the time, in regards ancestors, descendants, notice:

    Adam:

    Luke 3:38 KJB - Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.​

    Eve:

    Genesis 3:20 KJB - And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
    Jesus:

    Matthew 1:1 KJB - The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Matthew 15:22 KJB - And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

    Jesus is called the "son of David" numerous times: Matthew 1:1, 9:27, 12:23, 15:22, 20:30,31, 21:9,15, 22:42; Mark 10:47,48, 12:35; Luke 18:38,39 KJB
    Zacchaeus:

    Luke 19:9 KJB - And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
    Elisabeth:

    Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
    Joseph:

    Matthew 1:20 KJB - But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
    Christians:

    Galatians 3:7 KJB - Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.​

    A question in return:

    Matthew 22:41 KJB - While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

    Matthew 22:42 KJB - Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.

    Matthew 22:43 KJB - He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

    Matthew 22:44 KJB - The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    Matthew 22:45 KJB - If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Matthew 22:46 KJB - And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
    Whose Son is Jesus?
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
  16. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    This one is more interesting as it involves something which God stated about those who would alter his word.

    In the Bible we are warned against altering God's words, in either adding or taking away from:

    Deuteronomy 4:2 KJB - Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    Deuteronomy 12:32 KJB - What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

    Proverbs 30:6 KJB - Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

    Revelation 22:18 KJB - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    Revelation 22:19 KJB - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

    Let's look at someone who did alter God's words, and even cut them up and burned them in the fire.

    Jeremiah 36:20 KJB - And they went in to the king into the court, but they laid up the roll in the chamber of Elishama the scribe, and told all the words in the ears of the king.

    Jeremiah 36:21 KJB -So the king sent Jehudi to fetch the roll: and he took it out of Elishama the scribe's chamber. And Jehudi read it in the ears of the king, and in the ears of all the princes which stood beside the king.

    Jeremiah 36:22 KJB -Now the king sat in the winterhouse in the ninth month: and [there was a fire] on the hearth burning before him.

    Jeremiah 36:23 KJB - And it came to pass, [that] when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he [the King Jehoiakim] cut it with the penknife, and cast [it] into the fire that [was] on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that [was] on the hearth.

    Jeremiah 36:24 KJB - Yet they were not afraid, nor rent their garments, [neither] the king, nor any of his servants that heard all these words.

    Jeremiah 36:25 KJB - Nevertheless Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah had made intercession to the king that he would not burn the roll: but he would not hear them.

    Jeremiah 36:27 KJB - Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, after that the king had burned the roll, and the words which Baruch wrote at the mouth of Jeremiah, saying,

    Jeremiah 36:28 KJB - Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.

    Jeremiah 36:29 KJB - And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast?​

    Notice Matthew 1:11:

    Matthew 1:1 KJB - And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:​

    Notice who is suddenly 'missing'?

    Jehoiakim... (for it was Jehoiakim that begat Jechonias, and Josias the father of Jehoiakim (2 Kings 23:34; Jeremiah 1:3, 22:18, 25:1, 26:1, 27:1, 35:1, 36:1,9, 45:1, 46:2) and was Jechonias' grandfather (1 Chronicles 3:16; Jeremiah 22:24, 24:1, 27:20, 28:4, 37:1; "Coniah" = "Jeconiah/s")), but why?​

    It was for what he did to the word of God; which was cutting it up into pieces and having it burned, and thus his name was removed from the Geneology in Matthew.

    Thus Josias begat Jehoiakim and Jehoiakim begat Jechonias, but because of what Jehoiakim did to the word of God, a type was fulfilled, and is an example of what will happen to those names in the book of life who alter God's word, for God will remove their name from that book.

    The Bible does this all of the time in matters of relations, calling the grandson [or great grandson, etc] the son of the previous ancestor, for instance:

    Daniel 5:2 KJB - Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.​

    Yet, Belshazzar is the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar, and Nabonidus was Belshazzars Father, and who was the son of Nebuchadnezzar, yet because the Bible does not directly mention Nabonidus, who was out of the country, it calls Belshazzar the "son of" Nebuchadnezzar. meaning grand son, or son of a son. Also see the instance in reverse a father of a father:

    Genesis 32:9 KJB - And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, the LORD which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee:​
     
  17. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    The two texts:

    Matthew 1:8 KJB - And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;

    2 Chronicles 26:1 KJB - Then all the people of Judah took Uzziah, who was sixteen years old, and made him king in the room of his father Amaziah.​

    We see that Asa begat Jehoshaphat [Josaphat/Je Hosaphat]:

    1 Kings 15:24 KJB - And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead.

    1 Kings 22:41 KJB - And Jehoshaphat the son of Asa began to reign over Judah in the fourth year of Ahab king of Israel.

    1 Kings 22:43 KJB - And he walked in all the ways of Asa his father; he turned not aside from it, doing that which was right in the eyes of the LORD: nevertheless the high places were not taken away; for the people offered and burnt incense yet in the high places.​

    We see that Matthew is drawing from 1 Chronicles 3:

    1 Chronicles 3:10 KJB - And Solomon's son was Rehoboam, Abia his son, Asa his son, Jehoshaphat his son,

    Matthew 1:7 KJB - And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;

    Matthew 1:8 KJB - And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;​

    Thus, here is the list from 1 Chronicles 3:10-12 [with additional names as they are given elsewhere]:

    1 Chronicles 3:10 KJB - And Solomon's son was Rehoboam, Abia his son, Asa his son, Jehoshaphat [Josaphat] his son,

    1 Chronicles 3:11 KJB - Joram [Jehoram] his son, Ahaziah [Jehoahaz/Azariah] his son, Joash [Jehoash] his son,

    1 Chronicles 3:12 KJB - Amaziah [Uzziah/Ozias] his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son,
    Notice this text:

    2 Chronicles 26:23 KJB - So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which belonged to the kings; for they said, He is a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.​

    This is similar to:

    2 Kings 12:18 KJB - And Jehoash king of Judah took all the hallowed things that Jehoshaphat, and Jehoram, and Ahaziah, his fathers, kings of Judah, had dedicated, and his own hallowed things, and all the gold that was found in the treasures of the house of the LORD, and in the king's house, and sent it to Hazael king of Syria: and he went away from Jerusalem.​

    We see that the word "father" in the Bible is always to be considered in its contextual setting, as it can mean the immediate "father", the grand "father", the great grand "father", etc., etc., and same with "son", grand "son", great grand "son", etc., etc.

    Leviticus 25:41 KJB - And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.

    1 Kings 2:10 KJB - So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

    2 Chronicles 14:1 KJB - So Abijah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. In his days the land was quiet ten years.

    2 Chronicles 16:13 KJB - And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.​

    "his fathers":

    Leviticus 25:41; Numbers 4:1,11, 36:7,8; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,12,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 9:28, 10:35, 12:18,21, 13:9,13, 14:16,20,22,29, 15:7,9,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18,22, 23:32,37, 24:6; 1 Chronicles 26:31; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1,10,19, 25:28, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:25,27, 30:19, 32:33, 33:12,20, 35:24; Psalms 49:19, 109:14; Daniel 11:24,37,38; Acts 13:26
    Thus we see the order [same colours are the same persons]:

    Asa:

    1 Kings 15:8; 15:9; 15:11; 15:13; 15:14; 15:16; 15:17; 15:18; 15:20; 15:22; 15:23; 15:24; 15:25; 15:28; 15:32; 15:33; 16:8; 16:10; 16:15; 16:23; 16:29; 22:41; 22:43; 22:46; 1 Chronicles 3:10; 2 Chronicles 14:1; 14:2; 14:8; 14:10; 14:11; 14:12; 14:13; 15:2; 15:8; 15:10; 15:16; 15:17; 15:19; 16:1; 16:2; 16:4; 16:6; 16:7; 16:10; 16:11; 16:12; 16:13; 17:2; 20:32; 21:12; Jeremiah 41:9; Matthew 1:7; 1:8
    Je hoshaphat:

    2 Kings 8:16

    Jehoshaphat:


    1 Kings 15:24; 22:2; 22:4; 22:5; 22:7; 22:8; 22:10; 22:18; 22:29; 22:30; 22:32; 22:41; 22:42; 22:44; 22:45; 22:48; 22:49; 22:50; 22:51; 2 Kings 1:17; 3:1; 3:7; 3:11; 3:12; 3:14; 8:16; 12:18; 1 Chronicles 3:10; 2 Chronicles 17:1; 17:3; 17:5; 17:10; 17:11; 17:12; 18:1; 18:3; 18:4; 18:6; 18:7; 18:9; 18:17; 18:28; 18:29; 18:31; 19:1; 19:2; 19:4; 19:8; 20:1; 20:2; 20:3; 20:5; 20:15; 20:18; 20:20; 20:25; 20:27; 20:30; 20:31; 20:34; 20:35; 20:37; 21:1; 21:2; 21:12; 22:9; Joel 3:2; 3:12

    Josaphat:


    Matthew 1:8
    Jehoram:

    1 Kings 22:50; 2 Kings 1:17; 8:16; 8:25; 8:29; 12:18; 2 Chronicles 21:1; 21:3; 21:4; 21:5; 21:9; 21:16; 22:1; 22:6; 22:11
    Joram:

    2 Kings 8:21; 8:23; 8:24; 11:2; 1 Chronicles 3:11; Matthew 1:8
    Ahaziah:

    2 Kings 8:24; 8:25; 8:26; 8:29; 9:16; 9:21; 9:23; 9:27; 9:29; 10:13; 11:1; 11:2; 12:18; 13:1; 14:13; 1 Chronicles 3:11; 2 Chronicles 22:1; 22:2; 22:7; 22:8; 22:9; 22:10; 22:11
    Azariah:

    2 Chronicles 22:6
    Jehoahaz:

    2 Chronicles 21:17; 25:23
    Jehoash:

    2 Kings 11:21; 12:1; 12:2; 12:4; 12:6; 12:7; 12:18; 14:13
    Joash:

    2 Kings 11:2; 12:19; 12:20; 13:1; 13:10; 14:1; 14:3; 14:17; 14:23; 1 Chronicles 3:11; 2 Chronicles 22:11; 24:1; 24:2; 24:4; 24:22; 24:24; 25:23; 25:25
    Amaziah:

    2 Kings 12:21; 13:12; 14:1; 14:8; 14:9; 14:11; 14:13; 14:15; 14:17; 14:18; 14:21; 14:23; 15:1; 15:3; 1 Chronicles 3:12; 2 Chronicles 24:27; 25:1; 25:5; 25:9; 25:10; 25:11; 25:13; 25:14; 25:15; 25:17; 25:18; 25:20; 25:21; 25:23; 25:25; 25:26; 25:27; 26:1; 26:4
    Azariah:

    2 Kings 14:21; 15:1; 15:6; 15:7; 15:8; 15:17; 15:23; 15:27; 1 Chronicles 3:12
    Ozias:

    Matthew 1:8; 1:9
    Uzziah:

    2 Kings 15:13; 15:30; 15:32; 15:34; 2 Chronicles 26:1; 26:3; 26:8; 26:9; 26:11; 26:14; 26:18; 26:19; 26:21; 26:22; 26:23; 27:2; Isaiah 1:1; 6:1; 7:1; Hosea 1:1; Amos 1:1; Zechariah 14:5
    [1] Asa [great, great, great, great grand "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [2] Jehoshaphat/Josaphat [great, great, great grand "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [3] Jehoram/Joram [great, great grand "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [4] Ahaziah/Ariah/Jehoahaz [great grand "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [5] Jehoash/Joash [grand "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [6] Amaziah ["father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [7] Azariah/Uzziah/Ozias

    Therefore, both "Joram" and "Amaziah" are/is the "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah, with "Amaziah" being the immediate "father", and "Joram/Jehoram" being the great, great grand "father".

    This is simply the way the Bible identifies previous ancestors, and does not have to list the whole geneology in every instance, as the writers are inspired by the Holy Ghost to choose the various names which are needful, or to be highlighted.

    A person can verify this chronology here - Complete Bible Genealogy - Jesus family tree - Kings of Judah and Israel
     
  18. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Here are the two texts:

    Matthew 1:12 KJB - And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias [Coniah/Jeconiah/Jehoiachin] begat Salathiel [Shealtiel]; and Salathiel [Shealtiel] begat Zorobabel;

    Luke 3:27 KJB - Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel [Shealtiel], which was the son of Neri,​

    This answer is a bit more complicated and involved do to the facts we have at hand, namely that "Neri" is only mentioned once in the whole of scripture [KJB], which is not an issue at all [as other names are also like this, or are mentioned apart from all other ancestors and descendants, as "Melchizedek", etc.], and there is further genealogical material to be considered with Salathiel [Shealtiel] and Jechonias [Coniah/Jeconiah/Jehoiachin], and "Pedaiah".

    Neri, is unique, in that there are several ways that this person fits in, either, 'father in law', another type of marriage relation, such as Levirate, taking the wife of a brother and raising up seed in the name of the deceased, foster parent/guardian, same person with differing name or nickname [such as Solomon had, "Jedidiah" [2 Samuel 12:25 KJB], etc. All are valid scriptural [KJB] possibilities when dealing with varied genealogical materials, such as this.

    In fact, in the historian Luke's genealogy, we find a unique [meaning that the names of these persons are given only in this instance] tracing of the genealogical line through David's [and Bathsheba's] son Nathan:

    Luke 3:27 KJB - Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

    Luke 3:28 KJB - Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,

    Luke 3:29 KJB - Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

    Luke 3:30 KJB - Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,

    Luke 3:31 KJB - Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
    There is nowhere else in all of scripture [KJB] which so gives this genealogy or names. This means that Luke, the historian, had access to genealogical information, which we presently do not have available. Luke is an historian of first rate, and is trusted as such even in the secular historic field, and thus there is no reason to believe that these names and tracing are not accurate [for God stated that He would preserve His words [Psalms 12:6,7, KJB, etc], and inspire the writers with what is necessary].

    After all is said and done, there is no contradiction here, and several valid possibilities, which may be considered here - Genealogy of Jesus, Jesus family tree - Complete Bible Genealogy

    See also:

    Jesus Genealogy & Signet Prophecy.jpg

    [​IMG]

    We see in Scripture [KJB], that Zorobabel [Zerubbabel] is the son of Shealtiel, though there is an interesting twist with "Pedaiah":

    Ezra 3:2 KJB - Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.

    Ezra 5:2 KJB - Then rose up Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and began to build the house of God which is at Jerusalem: and with them were the prophets of God helping them.

    Nehemiah 12:1 KJB - Now these are the priests and the Levites that went up with Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua: Seraiah, Jeremiah, Ezra,

    Haggai 1:1 KJB - In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying,​

    Thus we see [same colours are the same persons]:

    Coniah:

    Jeremiah 22:24; 22:28; 37:1​

    Jechonias:

    Matthew 1:11; 1:12​

    Jeconiah:

    1 Chronicles 3:16; 3:17; Esther 2:6; Jeremiah 24:1; 27:20; 28:4; 29:2​

    Jehoiachin:

    2 Kings 24:6; 24:8; 24:12; 24:15; 25:27; 2 Chronicles 36:8; 36:9; Jeremiah 52:31; Ezekiel 1:2​

    Neri:

    Luke 3:27​

    Salathiel:

    1 Chronicles 3:17; Matthew 1:12​

    Shealtiel:

    Ezra 3:2; 3:8; 5:2; Nehemiah 12:1; Haggai 1:1; 1:12; 1:14; 2:2; 2:23
    Sheshbazzar

    Ezra 1:8; 1:11; 5:14; 5:16​

    Zerubbabel

    1 Chronicles 3:19; Ezra 2:2; 3:2; 3:8; 4:2; 4:3; 5:2; Nehemiah 7:7; 12:1; 12:47; Haggai 1:1; 1:12; 1:14; 2:2; 2:4; 2:21; 2:23; Zechariah 4:6; 4:7; 4:9; 4:10​

    Zorobabel

    Matthew 1:12; 1:13​

    Zorobabel [possibly the same as above, or some suggest differing with same name]

    Luke 3:27​
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  19. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    This one is the most unique, in that this "Cainan" given in Luke's Genealogy is the only place in all of scripture [KJB] which this person is given by this name, and in this order. This is not an issue for one who understands the chronologies in scripture [KJB], and in the way in which they work, such as from priestly lines, to kingly lines, to familial lines, to godly lines, ungodly lines, levirate marriage ties, adoption, etc. Not all names are given, as the genealogical listings serve differing purposes. This has been shown with such lists as:

    Matthew lists [leaving out Ahaziah and Joash and Amaziah]:

    Matthew 1:8 KJB - And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;​

    1 Chronicler lists [leaving out Amaziah]:

    1 Chronicles 3:10 KJB - And Solomon's son was Rehoboam, Abia his son, Asa his son, Jehoshaphat [Josaphat] his son,

    1 Chronicles 3:11 KJB - Joram [Jehoram] his son, Ahaziah [Jehoahaz/Azariah] his son, Joash [Jehoash] his son,

    1 Chronicles 3:12 KJB - Amaziah [Uzziah/Ozias] his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son,​

    Amaziah:

    2 Kings 12:21; 13:12; 14:1; 14:8; 14:9; 14:11; 14:13; 14:15; 14:17; 14:18; 14:21; 14:23; 15:1; 15:3; 1 Chronicles 3:12; 2 Chronicles 24:27; 25:1; 25:5; 25:9; 25:10; 25:11; 25:13; 25:14; 25:15; 25:17; 25:18; 25:20; 25:21; 25:23; 25:25; 25:26; 25:27; 26:1; 26:4​

    Is it a mistake by Matthew and the Chronicler? No. It is just that the authors were inspired of the Holy Ghost to do this for specific reasons of context, etc.

    Likewise, there are several possibilities here in regards this "Cainan" in Luke's genealogical account without the notion of error ever entering the picture. The events surrounding this part of the genealogy are so far back in the history of mankind, on the order of 4,500 years ago, surrounding the events just after the global flood, that only a few precious snapshots are given by inspiration, and it takes prayer, study and asking of God for assistance, because He is the one who inspired the authors, and who was an eye-witness to the events.

    It is entirely possible, because of the actions of Ham, and the curse upon Canaan, in Genesis 9:25 KJB, that a change of name was involved denoting this. Some notice the difference in spelling, but as shown already there are numerous persons in scripture [KJB] with multiple names, spelled in slightly differing ways: Coniah=Jechonias=Jeconiah=Jehoaichin; Salathiel=Shealtiel; Zerubbabel=Zorobabel=Sheshbazzar; Solomon=Jedidiah; Azariah=Uzziah=Ozias; Jehoash=Joash; Ahaziah=Ariah=Jehoahaz; Jehoram=Joram; Jehoshaphat=Josaphat; Oshea=Jehoshua=Joshua=Jesus; even Daniel was given another name, an heathen name as Belteshazzar, and likewise, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and likewise Mattaniah to Zedekiah.

    The phrase "the son" through Luke' account, is entirely italic, meaning, absent in the Koine Greek language of the text, and added as an help in translation, to more easily convey the meaning of such names. The phrase "the son" does not always mean the immediate biological son, and has several meanings in scripture [KJB] depending upon context, such as [1] a biological immediate son, [2] grandson or later great 'son' of previous ancestor, [3] foster son/child, [4] son through levirate marriage, raised up seed in the name of previously deceased, etc, and so on...

    Some might point to having two of the same name so close in the early genealogy, but this is no issue either, and even expected, since there were two Enochs [Genesis 4:17, 5:19 KJB] and even two Lamechs [Genesis 4:18, 5:25 KJB], and so the idea of two distinct Cainans is easily accepted as valid.

    It is possible that 'Canaan' [H3667], becomes known in the Gospel of Luke by 'Cainan' [G2536] and is in some manner involved relationally [such as an immoral act, and by another marriage to another], through those Genesis 9 events. For instance, Canaan having learnt some of the wicked ways of his father Ham [as scripture speaks of many kings who followed in the wicked ways of their fathers before them], could become involved in this way.

    Thus an interesting possibility, after such a manner [though I do not presently say one way or the other, neither endorse, nor do not endorse, but simply list as one of the several possibilities that are presently offered] - SHELAH (SALAH) - Was Arphaxad or Cainan (Canaan) his father?

    Some might point to the word "begat", in the following verse:

    Genesis 10:24 KJB - And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber.

    Genesis 11:12 KJB - And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:

    Genesis 11:13 KJB - And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.

    1 Chronicles 1:18 KJB - And Arphaxad begat Shelah, and Shelah begat Eber.
    Yet even here, with "begat" one must be careful, as "begat" can still be used in the context of later generations, as Paul would say, that the seed of the Levites were in the loins of Abraham [Hebrews 7:5-10 KJB]:

    Matthew 1:8 KJB - And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;​

    Yet, it is already proven that "Joram" begat "Ahaziah", who begat "Joash", who begat "Amaziah" who finally begat "Ozias":

    [3] Jehoram/Joram [great, great grand "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [4] Ahaziah/Ariah/Jehoahaz [great grand "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [5] Jehoash/Joash [grand "father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [6] Amaziah ["father" of Uzziah/Ozias/Azariah]
    [7] Azariah/Uzziah/Ozias

    And yet still, it can be said, in the manner of the Bible [KJB], that truly, "Joram begat Ozias", not as immediate offspring, but as a great, great, grand "son".

    ... to be continued ...
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  20. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +238
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    Others have said:

    "... We can reasonably accept that Cainan was the adopted son of Arphaxad, and that Cainan raised Sala, who was the biological son of Arphaxad. The Masoretic text is not in error because its genealogies in Genesis and Chronicles focus on biological sonship. ..." - Should Cainan be in the genealogy in Luke 3:36? - King James Version Today
    Or:

    " ... Cainan may have been the firstborn son of Arphaxad who married at an early age. Cainan conceives Salah with his wife, but he dies before his son Selah is born. So Arphaxad, his father, adopts Salah and becomes his "father". Remember, the word "beget" does not necessarily mean direct father-son relationship.

    Or ... Cainan may have married one of Arphaxad's daughters and Salah was his son. However, in the genealogy listed in Genesis chapter 11, Arphaxad is listed as having "begotten" Salah, even though he was the grandfather. Genealogies often skip over generations, and sons are not always listed in the order in which they were born. ..."- Luke 3:36 Cainan &LXX

    It is extremely important to note:

    "... The simple fact is, the reading of Cainan in Luke 3:36 is not found in just one or two copies of Luke, but is the reading found in practically every known Greek manuscript in existence today. ...

    ... It is in the vast Majority of all Greek copies, including Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, as well as the ancient Syriac Peshitta, Harkelian, Coptic and Latin versions.

    It is also the reading of the Latin Vulgate 425 A.D, Wycliffe 1395, Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Geneva Bible, the NKJV, NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, ISV, Holman Standard, and every English Bible version I have ever seen.

    It is also in the Spanish Reina Valera, the Italian Diodati, the Portuguese Almeida, the French Martin and Ostervald and the Louis Second 2007 and Luther's German Bible. I know of no Bible version in any language that omits this name from the genealogy of Christ in Luke chapter three." - Luke 3:36 Cainan &LXX

    We can point to another example of names in the NT which are not directly in the OT anywhere, but come through inspiration of the Holy Ghost, none the less, and from sources which today do not exist as they did then:

    2 Timothy 3:8 KJB - Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.​

    There is an example of the OT of foster parentage or two mothers [an actual mother, and a foster grand-mother, by the original marriage of Ruth to the son of Naomi, who died]:

    Ruth 4:13 KJB - So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.

    Ruth 4:14 KJB - And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.

    Ruth 4:15 KJB - And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.

    Ruth 4:16 KJB - And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.

    Ruth 4:17 KJB - And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David.​

    However, when all is said and done, whether or not the above examples are the actual reason, it would not change the outcome overall. Arphaxad would be "father" in the most accepted sense of scriptural [KJB] genealogy [being given immediately as such in several genealogical lists [Genesis 10:24, 11:12,13; 1 Chronicles 1:18,24 KJB]], and "Cainan" is "father" in another sense in which Arphaxad is not, and as seen in the previous answers, this is how scripture [KJB] works in regards the word "father" in varied contexts.

    Luke stated very clearly:

    Luke 1:1 KJB - Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

    Luke 1:2 KJB - Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

    Luke 1:3 KJB - It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

    Luke 1:4 KJB - That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.​

    Paul says:

    2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

    Moses said:

    Deuteronomy 8:3 KJB - And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.​

    Repeated in the NT by Jesus:

    Matthew 4:4 KJB - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Luke 4:4 KJB - And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.​

    The Psalms writer says:

    Psalms 12:6 KJB - The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    Psalms 12:7 KJB - Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    Psalms 119:140 KJB - Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.​

    The Wisdom writer said:

    Proverbs 30:5 KJB - Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.​

    Jesus said:

    Matthew 24:35 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Mark 13:31 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Luke 21:33 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.​

    And thus we have in the KJB, the preserved word of God in English. That takes scriptural faith. If any choose to mock that, this is of course their prerogative, but in the day of reckoning, all excuses will be silenced.

    Furthermore, if one were to attempt to posit this as an intercalation or later emendation by later scribe, they would have to have more solid evidence that what is herein presented, and there is no such evidence to be had, and all who say otherwise, having nothing to show except an aetheral speculation on a whim. Some who posit that Luke borrowed from the so-called LXX, do not realize that the earliest extant mss do not contain it, but omit it [more than likely an attempt to cover what they do not understand about why Luke does have it], except in older extant copies in LXX Genesis 11:13, and in the so-called Jubilees 8:1-4, see - KAINAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com.

    For the so-called LXX, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, see - [Link to so-called LXX]

    For another brief, but helpful discussion on this, see Dr. Peter S. Ruckman's, "The 'Errors' of the King James Bible", pages 36-38.
     
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