Multiple communion spoons - is it apostasy?

[tapi]

Tapi, have you ever thought about contacting Fr. Heers to discuss this with him? That would seem more productive and in line with Orthodox behavior than continually spreading vitriol on here.

Well, the issue keeps coming up because these gentlemen continue their divise actions. As for the vitriol,I was merely stating the words of others. I doubt my contact would do much since these guys disregard patriarchs and synods.

 

[Platina]

You're the one who raised the issue of Fr. Peter. You're far more interested in him than anyone else on here.

But it's not surprising that you're not willing to contact him, just as Abp. Alexander was unfortunately unwilling to do.

 

[tapi]

we do this when pneumonia kills people suffering from Parkinson's disease, because Parkinson's makes one more vulnerable to pneumonia. this happened to my grandmother. no one was called a pneumonia denier because they said that Parkinson's made my grandmother more likely to repose because she had a pre-existing condition.

It's one thing to point out relationships between different health conditions and to say stuff like:

"”they have imprisoned us with a scam or a flu… [The media] are lying to keep us imprisoned in our homes.”"

"[In Italy] of the 25,000 registered victims deaths, that is of the coronavirus, the real victims of the coronavirus were 900, 925 to be exact… That is, the 96.3% did not die of the coronavirus…. [They died] of other causes, of underlying illnesses, for other reasons, and it was attributed to the coronavirus… On a daily basis I personally hear of cases from my spiritual children, who tell me how they were pressured by various people in the hospitals to register that the death was due to the coronavirus."

As is done on the Orthodox Ethos podcast.

 

[tapi]

You're the one who raised the issue of Fr. Peter. You're far more interested in him than anyone else on here.

But it's not surprising that you're not willing to contact him, just as Abp. Alexander was unfortunately unwilling to do.

No point contacting people who consider themselves above any bishop or synod. Heers is not even under the archpastoral oversight of any bishop in Greece, despite residing there permanently. (This raises the canonical question: on whose permission does he liturgize in Thessaloniki?) Most likely to precisely avoid consequences for his actions.

What would Vladika Alexanders, much less mine, contact do?

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's one thing to point out relationships between different health conditions and to say stuff like:

"”they have imprisoned us with a scam or a flu… [The media] are lying to keep us imprisoned in our homes.”"

"[In Italy] of the 25,000 registered victims deaths, that is of the coronavirus, the real victims of the coronavirus were 900, 925 to be exact… That is, the 96.3% did not die of the coronavirus…. [They died] of other causes, of underlying illnesses, for other reasons, and it was attributed to the coronavirus… On a daily basis I personally hear of cases from my spiritual children, who tell me how they were pressured by various people in the hospitals to register that the death was due to the coronavirus."

As is done on the Orthodox Ethos podcast.

which was not done by the poster you called a COVID denier.

 

[prodromos]

This raises the canonical question: on whose permission does he liturgize in Thessaloniki?

Why don't you ask him? He has been serving in Thessaloniki for many years, from before he published the English translation of Elder Cleopas' "The truth of our faith"

 

[Platina]

No point contacting people who consider themselves above any bishop or synod. Heers is not even under the archpastoral oversight of any bishop in Greece, despite residing there permanently. (This raises the canonical question: on whose permission does he liturgize in Thessaloniki?) Most likely to precisely avoid consequences for his actions.

What would Vladika Alexanders, much less mine, contact do?

Here's the question you're failing to ask: IS he liturgizing in Thessaloniki?
Answer: No. Fr. Peter returned to Greece out of necessity for his wife's health, but he is a priest of the MP. Thus, he is not currently serving.

What would Vladyka Alexander's contact have done? The obvious thing is he could have found out who Fr. Peter's bishop is rather than basically calling him a rogue priest.

What would your contact with him do? You could have an actual conversation, find out where he's coming from, challenge his POV and see how he responds, see where you've misunderstood him in any way -- you know, be adultish.

BTW, I agree with you that the argument about deaths in Italy that Fr. Savvas made was a weak one.

 

[tapi]

Here's the question you're failing to ask: IS he liturgizing in Thessaloniki?
Answer: No. Fr. Peter returned to Greece out of necessity for his wife's health, but he is a priest of the MP. Thus, he is not currently serving.

What would Vladyka Alexander's contact have done? The obvious thing is he could have found out who Fr. Peter's bishop is rather than basically calling him a rogue priest.

What would your contact with him do? You could have an actual conversation, find out where he's coming from, challenge his POV and see how he responds, see where you've misunderstood him in any way -- you know, be adultish.

BTW, I agree with you that the argument about deaths in Italy that Fr. Savvas made was a weak one.

I think I have a pretty good grasp of his POV and I seriously doubt common ground could be found. I am sure he is 100% convinced of his position and that he is "following the saints" vs. following contemporary synods and bishops, whom he considers to have espoused practices constituting blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (which is an insane view in of itself, the practical consequences would be unfathomable)

Heers, and even more than him, some of the "Elders" he promotes and gives the limelight to, have a very detrimental impact and scandalize faithful, even inciting them to open disobedience to their spiritual fathers and bishops. Some of the views are so preposterous I cannot fathom how any sane person could take them seriously. Or after reading such extremism, take anything by these guys at face value.

Many folks are of the same opinion as I, as you well know, and as long Heers & other sowers of dissent continue their activities they will be called out.

re: last paragraph, good to find at least some common ground

Btw, I would be greatly surprised if Heers didnt liturgize, as in the summer it was expressed in the Orthodox Ethos podcast that priests should disobey their bishops if they are prevented from liturgizing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think I have a pretty good grasp of his POV and I seriously doubt common ground could be found. I am sure he is 100% convinced of his position and that he is "following the saints" vs. following contemporary synods and bishops, whom he considers to have espoused practices constituting blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (which is an insane view in of itself, the practical consequences would be unfathomable)

Heers, and even more than him, some of the "Elders" he promotes and gives the limelight to, have a very detrimental impact and scandalize faithful, even inciting them to open disobedience to their spiritual fathers and bishops. Some of the views are so preposterous I cannot fathom how any sane person could take them seriously.

Many folks are of the same opinion, as you well know, and as long the activities of Heers & other sowers of dissent continue their activities they will be called out.

I don't think you have a good grasp of his POV to be honest. as someone who has heard him speak on more than one occasion, he is very different when he preaches to the masses than when he speaks to people one on one. he takes the distinction between how he is to be as a public preacher and how he is as a pastor very seriously.

 

[tapi]

I don't think you have a good grasp of his POV to be honest. as someone who has heard him speak on more than one occasion, he is very different when he preaches to the masses than when he speaks to people one on one. he takes the distinction between how he is to be as a public preacher and how he is as a pastor very seriously.

Well, I can believe that he can be a good guy in private and what not, but the public output through his channels is very problematic and not constructive at all, but of course internally it all makes sense because he considers that the vast majority have fallen into blasphemy willingly or unwillingly and he's representing the truth in the face of mass apostasy. I think it's a sad case of spiritual delusion with honest intentions, but its the Church who suffers as a consequence.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, I can believe that he can be a good guy in private and what not, but the public output through his channels is very problematic and not constructive at all, but of course internally it all makes sense because he considers that the vast majority have fallen into blasphemy willingly or unwillingly and he's representing the truth in the face of mass apostasy. I think it's a sad case of spiritual delusion with honest intentions, but its the Church who suffers as a consequence.

we're not talking about being a good guy in private. the two sides that I saw of him were both in public.

 

[Hermit76]

Tapi, I honestly don't know what you want us to do about Fr. Heers. He isn't the only one concerned about the state of such things as we have discussed. He is definitely not the core of resistance for those who oppose all of the changes. I'm not really sure there is a core of resistance. It just seems to me that opinions differ. Either way it is a bit sophomoric to label every thought in opposition to your own as being aligned with Fr. Heers. People can think for themselves. I haven't agreed with everything I've heard from Fr. Heers but if you heard all of my thoughts you would surely label me as a Heers follower. It's nonsense and is truthfully getting a little tiresome.

 

[Platina]

Btw, I would be greatly surprised if Heers didnt liturgize, as in the summer it was expressed in the Orthodox Ethos podcast that priests should disobey their bishops if they are prevented from liturgizing.

Well, I disagree, but either way - he's a very public figure and it's no secret that he's back in Greece. He couldn't just start serving somewhere wihtout a blessing and have it go unnoticed.

And in any case, the Metropolitan of Thessaloniki is one of those who supports the OCU, and Fr. Peter is certainly not interested in being part of that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Btw, I would be greatly surprised if Heers didnt liturgize, as in the summer it was expressed in the Orthodox Ethos podcast that priests should disobey their bishops if they are prevented from liturgizing.

that would make sense if he were under the Metropolitan of Thessaloniki. His Eminence can prevent him from serving for any reason he wants as Fr Peter isn't his priest, and that right of the bishop goes back way longer than COVID.

 

[abacabb3]

There is no canon on spoons. In fact, the spoon is an innovation (though old one), everyone used to receive in their hands and drink from the chalice.

I think the problem is not multiple spoons, but the perception of why we are using them. If the priest/Bishop said "the Eucharist will absolutely not make you sick unless you commune unworthily and we are only doing this so as not to scandalize unbelievers," I have no issue with this. We should be picking wiser battles with the government. The issue is, i think, modernists using this as an excuse to knock the sacrament down a peg.

 

[abacabb3]

that would make sense if he were under the Metropolitan of Thessaloniki. His Eminence can prevent him from serving for any reason he wants as Fr Peter isn't his priest, and that right of the bishop goes back way longer than COVID.

If Fr Peter is ROCOR, then they are not in communion with the Greeks and it really does not matter if he is serving without the local Bishop's permission, no? Usually, the Bishops are lenient with these things unless they don't want to be for political reasons (such as Georgia making an issue about a Russian Priest serving Russians in South Ossetia--which, technically they are in the right but its real nit-picky.)

 

[ArmyMatt]

If Fr Peter is ROCOR, then they are not in communion with the Greeks and it really does not matter if he is serving without the local Bishop's permission, no? Usually, the Bishops are lenient with these things unless they don't want to be for political reasons (such as Georgia making an issue about a Russian Priest serving Russians in South Ossetia--which, technically they are in the right but its real nit-picky.)

no, it still would unless there is a ROCOR parish there.

 

[abacabb3]

no, it still would unless there is a ROCOR parish there.

Well, if he does not have a parish there, then he is merely a priest living there using the internet. What's the controversy in that?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, if he does not have a parish there, then he is merely a priest living there using the internet. What's the controversy in that?

I don't know

 

[Platina]

Well, if he does not have a parish there, then he is merely a priest living there using the internet. What's the controversy in that?

It's not actually controversial. It's a diversion from having to actually offer a substantive response to his arguments.