Multiple communion spoons - is it apostasy?

[Max Carvalho]

Hello there. My name is Max, I’m an ex-JW catechumen from Brazil, first post here in the EO forums. Hopefully I will be able to share more of my conversion story with you all later.

Anyway, I have heard a lot about how there shouldn’t be multiple communion spoons, because the Holy Communion cannot spread disease, and it is sacrilegious to change the prescribed liturgical way of giving communion like that for such reason. In fact, I have heard people advising you not to go to a given parish if it has such practice. All orthodox parishes in my city are currently doing it (so not much I could do I guess) and the priest of my own parish seems not to like doing it, but he does it so he can avoid authorities forcibly shutting down the church. What are you guys thoughts? Is this that much of a big of a deal?

 

[E.C.]

If parishes are doing it, it is at the directive of their bishop primarily as a way to placate the authorities so that we don't get shut down. Correct, diseases and viruses can not spread via the Eucharist as is Orthodox belief.

 

[Hermit76]

As a Catechumen you should follow your priest as he follows the Bishop. Also, try to stay away from comments that use words like "apostasy," "heresy," and the like. We all have opinions about the spoon issue but it's not worth causing a Catechumen to have doubts.

 

[Hermit76]

And welcome!

 

[ArmyMatt]

depends on why.

but it's the bishop's call, so if it is apostasy, it's on him.

 

[Max Carvalho]

depends on why.

but it's the bishop's call, so if it is apostasy, it's on him.

Thank you, father. So you wouldn’t say to necessarily avoid a parish because of that, right?

 

[buzuxi02]

In fact, I have heard people advising you not to go to a given parish if it has such practice.

I can't say I ever heard anyone advising us not to go to a parish that uses multiple spoons. Not here on TAW that's for sure and never heard anyone claim it's apostasy.
It's best not to use such things as multiple spoons nor to deviate from what has been passed down. Unfortunately due to society's weakness of faith and irrational fear of death the church accommodates them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hello there. My name is Max, I’m an ex-JW catechumen from Brazil, first post here in the EO forums. Hopefully I will be able to share more of my conversion story with you all later.

Anyway, I have heard a lot about how there shouldn’t be multiple communion spoons, because the Holy Communion cannot spread disease, and it is sacrilegious to change the prescribed liturgical way of giving communion like that for such reason. In fact, I have heard people advising you not to go to a given parish if it has such practice. All orthodox parishes in my city are currently doing it (so not much I could do I guess) and the priest of my own parish seems not to like doing it, but he does it so he can avoid authorities forcibly shutting down the church. What are you guys thoughts? Is this that much of a big of a deal?

Perhaps it’s not a matter of whether or not disease can be spread but a matter of respecting the governing authorities whom God has put in place.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you, father. So you wouldn’t say to necessarily avoid a parish because of that, right?

correct

 

[GreekOrthodox]

IMHO, if you have a priest and deacon, your parish might already be using two cups and two spoons. So for me at least, multiple spoons is not an issue. Christ Himself was willing to rescue Peter in the sea when he saw the waves.

As a former Lutheran, who honestly preferred a chalice over individual cups, I will admit, I did skip the chalice a few times because... well, someone had backwashed a loougie into the chalice. I get why some people can be a bit anxious about a common spoon.

 

[peregrinus2017]

This ties into all the precautions that have been undertaken at the present time. We still have no services of any kind where I am. That my Bishop chooses to follow the directives of the civil authorities is his responsibility. Mine is to follow my Bishop. I certainly don't like the present situation. Looking at myself I know that exercising willfulness and judgement will not be beneficial, but I very much need to learn how to practice humility and obedience.

 

[Lawrence87]

If parishes are doing it, it is at the directive of their bishop primarily as a way to placate the authorities so that we don't get shut down. Correct, diseases and viruses can not spread via the Eucharist as is Orthodox belief.

Yes I think this is largely the case. It's better that people can receive communion with multiple spoons than to risk someone going to report them for not being 'COVID safe' and thus getting the Churches shut down.

I do notice within myself the temptation to sneer at this stuff, but I think its important to consider not only the threat of having the Churches forcably closed, but also the fact that people are afraid (whether you think they are right or wrongly afraid is irrelevant), I will swallow my pride and wear a mask irrespective of my concerns about its efficacy if it will make my neighbour more at ease. And if using separate spoons for each communicant makes the parishoners feel more at ease in receiving it then fair enough. I'd hate to think of someone being put off Orthodoxy because they didn't feel like their Church was safe.

 

[E.C.]

Yes I think this is largely the case. It's better that people can receive communion with multiple spoons than to risk someone going to report them for not being 'COVID safe' and thus getting the Churches shut down.

I do notice within myself the temptation to sneer at this stuff, but I think its important to consider not only the threat of having the Churches forcably closed, but also the fact that people are afraid (whether you think they are right or wrongly afraid is irrelevant), I will swallow my pride and wear a mask irrespective of my concerns about its efficacy if it will make my neighbour more at ease. And if using separate spoons for each communicant makes the parishoners feel more at ease in receiving it then fair enough. I'd hate to think of someone being put off Orthodoxy because they didn't feel like their Church was safe.

It's never an easy time being a bishop when one considers the amount of stuff they have to deal with on a daily basis; this current pandemic adds a lot of weight to their burdens because of decisions they have to make like multiple spoons vs. forced to shut down. Thankfully various Roman Catholic dioceses are suing some of the larger cities for the uneven amount of anti-religious decisions the civil authorities have made. New York was sued by the RC Diocese of Brooklyn as well as one of the Hasidic Jewish groups based there. DC is being sued as well.


Unfortunately, there have been cases within individual parishes of people reporting the parish for not being "safe". I suspect it's a possible holdover from ratting out one's neighbor during Soviet times, but who knows. The ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco was holding services without enforcing things until someone within the parish ratted them out which nearly caused a schism within the cathedral community. Now if you want to venerate the relics of St John, they have someone taking temperatures at the door.

 

[Dorothea]

Personally, I think it's blasphemous, but I do think E.C. is right in his response of why it's happening. And I agree with Fr. Matt that it is on the bishops, and no, that doesn't mean I think they're in an easy position.

 

[ArmyMatt]

And I agree with Fr. Matt that it is on the bishops, and no, that doesn't mean I think they're in an easy position

I couldn't imagine the burden they are bearing through this.

 

[Dorothea]

I couldn't imagine the burden they are bearing through this.

Yes

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Personally, I think it's blasphemous, but I do think E.C. is right in his response of why it's happening. And I agree with Fr. Matt that it is on the bishops, and no, that doesn't mean I think they're in an easy position.

I'm really trying to understand why multiple spoons, since multiple cups may be used with multiple clergy, are so controversial. The spoon only started to be used in the 9th century and in the Liturgy of St. James, the laity receive communion as the clergy, receiving the body in their hands and the blood in the chalice.

Celebrating the Divine Liturgy of St. James

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm really trying to understand why multiple spoons, since multiple cups may be used with multiple clergy, are so controversial. The spoon only started to be used in the 9th century and in the Liturgy of St. James, the laity receive communion as the clergy, receiving the body in their hands and the blood in the chalice.

Celebrating the Divine Liturgy of St. James

it's the reason why that's the controversy. you can't get sick from a spoon dunked in the Blood of the Great Physician.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

it's the reason why that's the controversy. you can't get sick from a spoon dunked in the Blood of the Great Physician.

Thank you Father. Could this also be a jurisdiction or even parish to parish practical issue?

I think I've normally seen OCA and Antiochian communicants come up fairly close and then tip their heads back and the priest flipped the spoon over. Generally, the spoon did not make contact with the mouth. So I can see that multiple spoons does appear nonsensical.

However, I've seen GOA parishioners have this tendency to stand so far away that the priest has to take a half-step or two forward to get the spoon to them, they close their mouth around the spoon. Then he has to practically pull the spoon out of the mouth. Have you experienced anything similar?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you Father. Could this also be a jurisdiction or even parish to parish practical issue?

I think I've normally seen OCA and Antiochian communicants come up fairly close and then tip their heads back and the priest flipped the spoon over. Generally, the spoon did not make contact with the mouth. So I can see that multiple spoons does appear nonsensical.

However, I've seen GOA parishioners have this tendency to stand so far away that the priest has to take a half-step or two forward to get the spoon to them, they close their mouth around the spoon. Then he has to practically pull the spoon out of the mouth. Have you experienced anything similar?

I think it's diocese to diocese as far as being an issue.

and generally in my parish, folks close their mouths on the spoon.