Mukasey Compares US Torture to Nazis

IzzyPop

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Michael Mukasey, the next Attorney General, compared the BushCo torture memo to the Holocaust. He talked about the photos taken when rescuing the victims in the concentration camps as a way to document the brutality and barbarism, "They didn't do that so we could duplicate what we oppose."

Compare this to when Durbin compared the torture to the Holocaust 2 years ago. Remember the outrage? The condemnation coming from all the righties? Where is it now?
 

oldbetang

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Michael Mukasey, the next Attorney General, compared the BushCo torture memo to the Holocaust. He talked about the photos taken when rescuing the victims in the concentration camps as a way to document the brutality and barbarism, "They didn't do that so we could duplicate what we oppose."

Compare this to when Durbin compared the torture to the Holocaust 2 years ago. Remember the outrage? The condemnation coming from all the righties? Where is it now?
Link please!
 
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oldbetang

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Just as I suspected. Your headline is totally misleading. Mukasey never compared "US torture to Nazis". In fact he pointed out that the US doesn't torture or condone torture:

MUKASEY: We are party to a treaty that outlaws torture. Torture is unlawful under the laws of this country. The president has said that in an executive order.

But beyond all of those legal restrictions, we don't torture, not simply because it's against this or that law, or against this or that treaty. It is not what this country is about. It is not what this country stands for. It's antithetical to everything this country stands for.
Soldiers of this country liberated concentration camps toward the end of World War II and at the end of World War II and photographed what they saw there as a record of what -- the barbarism that we oppose. We didn't do that so that we could then duplicate it ourselves.

The Bybee memo, to paraphrase a French diplomat, was worse than a sin, it was a mistake. It was unnecessary.


It, as I've read -- I mean, I've read the memo and I've read what's been -- some of what's been written about it -- it purported to justify measures based on broad grants of authority that were unnecessary.


The analysis in that memo was found to be defective, and the memo was withdrawn in favor of a later memo that narrowed substantially the basis for authorizing measures beyond, perhaps different from those that may be contained in the Army field manual.
 
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IzzyPop

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Just as I suspected. Your headline is totally misleading. Mukasey never compared "US torture to Nazis". In fact he pointed out that the US doesn't torture or condone torture:
MUKASEY: We are party to a treaty that outlaws torture. Torture is unlawful under the laws of this country. The president has said that in an executive order.

But beyond all of those legal restrictions, we don't torture, not simply because it's against this or that law, or against this or that treaty. It is not what this country is about. It is not what this country stands for. It's antithetical to everything this country stands for.
Soldiers of this country liberated concentration camps toward the end of World War II and at the end of World War II and photographed what they saw there as a record of what -- the barbarism that we oppose. We didn't do that so that we could then duplicate it ourselves.

The Bybee memo, to paraphrase a French diplomat, was worse than a sin, it was a mistake. It was unnecessary.


It, as I've read -- I mean, I've read the memo and I've read what's been -- some of what's been written about it -- it purported to justify measures based on broad grants of authority that were unnecessary.


The analysis in that memo was found to be defective, and the memo was withdrawn in favor of a later memo that narrowed substantially the basis for authorizing measures beyond, perhaps different from those that may be contained in the Army field manual.
I have to say that I am not seeing the difference. He deliberately draw parallels between then concentration camps and US policy on torture.

You can bold all you want to. The Bybee memo was written and used in '02. The 'later memo' was written in '05. So we went 3 years with the 'mistake' guiding us. And the executive order mean nothing. It still allows water boarding, sensory deprivation, and 'rough treatment'. Just not up to a certain level of discomfort. It is still torture, we just use double speak to cloud the issue.
 
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I have to say that I am not seeing the difference. He deliberately draw parallels between then concentration camps and US policy on torture.

You can bold all you want to. The Bybee memo was written and used in '02. The 'later memo' was written in '05. So we went 3 years with the 'mistake' guiding us. And the executive order mean nothing. It still allows water boarding, sensory deprivation, and 'rough treatment'. Just not up to a certain level of discomfort. It is still torture, we just use double speak to cloud the issue.

It's much worse than that. Finds the latest UNAMI report on the situation of human rights, or rather, lack of human rights in the US-occupied Iraq, issued 11 October and covering the period 1 April to 30 June, 2007: "UNAMI remained gravely concerned at continuing reports of the widespread and routine torture or ill-treatment of detainees..." currently totalling 42,219.

In addition to routine beatings with hosepipes, cables, and other implements, the methods cited included prolonged suspension from the limbs in contorted and painful positions for extended periods, sometimes resulting in dislocation of the joints; electric shocks to sensitive parts of the body; the breaking of limbs; forcing detainees to sit on sharp objects, causing serious injury and heightening the risk of infection; and severe burns to parts of the body through application of heated implements.

The report also cites rape and sexual abuse of women and young girls.

:sick:

By their fruits you shall know them. Tens of thousands are also been held without charge in the US-run detention camps in Afghanistan. I wonder if anything at all has changed or does the United States of America still routinely torture there as well.
 
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oldbetang

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I have to say that I am not seeing the difference. He deliberately draw parallels between then concentration camps and US policy on torture.

No he did not! In fact he did just the opposite. He specifically pointed out that the US does not torture.

You can bold all you want to. The Bybee memo was written and used in '02. The 'later memo' was written in '05. So we went 3 years with the 'mistake' guiding us. And the executive order mean nothing. It still allows water boarding, sensory deprivation, and 'rough treatment'. Just not up to a certain level of discomfort. It is still torture, we just use double speak to cloud the issue.

Waterboarding is the worst interrogation procedure that the US has used . Even that isn't torture. So the Bybee memo mistake means nothing.
 
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oldbetang

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It's much worse than that. Finds the latest UNAMI report on the situation of human rights, or rather, lack of human rights in the US-occupied Iraq, issued 11 October and covering the period 1 April to 30 June, 2007: "UNAMI remained gravely concerned at continuing reports of the widespread and routine torture or ill-treatment of detainees..." currently totalling 42,219.



The report also cites rape and sexual abuse of women and young girls.

:sick:

By their fruits you shall know them.

I sure hope that you're not trying to pass that off as "US committed or approved atrocities". By their fruits you shall know them.


Tens of thousands are also been held without charge in the US-run detention camps in Afghanistan. I wonder if anything at all has changed or does the United States of America still routinely torture there as well.

That's an old article from the leftist rag The Guardian. It has never been established that the US has ever tortured or condoned torture in Afghanistan.
 
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Yusuf Evans

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:doh: :doh:

Here's the problem I'm having with this: you can't sit there and compare the two.

The NAZIs were purposely exterminating the European Jews from existence, while torture is all about getting information through persuasive means. That's how simple it is. I can't believe that some people would agree that it's the same thing, particularly Americans.

I don't agree with torture, but I do agree with interregations that are not meant to make someone be comfortable. As for the people we're fighting in Iraq, they're either terrorists or spies. They do not fight for any recognized nation, therefore are not protected by the Geneva Convention.
 
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I sure hope that you're not trying to pass that off as "US committed or approved atrocities". By their fruits you shall know them.

The United States of America approved and committeed atrocities under President Bush's administration, and I have no reason to believe that the United States of America under Bush & co. would have suddenly stopped torturing and abusing prisoners. To quote the chief of staff of the former Secretary of State General Colin Powell, U.S. Army Col. Larry Wilkerson, there's no question in my mind that the United States of America routinely tortured in the US-run facilities for years, and there's no question in my mind that the United States of America may be still doing it.

That's an old article from the leftist rag The Guardian.

The well is still clear; I'm afraid you have to do better than that.

It has never been established that the US has ever tortured or condoned torture in Afghanistan.

Riiight.

Too bad for you, then, that what happens in, say, Bagram hasn't exactly stayed in Bagram.

Reports the rightist rag Forbes:

US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN

The US-backed President of Afghanistan also acknowledges:


Karzai shock at US Afghan 'abuse'


As does, say, the US Army itself, for instance here.

Ignorance may be a short-term bliss, but denial serves as a silent approval of the abuses done in your name.
 
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Just as I suspected. Your headline is totally misleading. Mukasey never compared "US torture to Nazis". In fact he pointed out that the US doesn't torture or condone torture:

MUKASEY: We are party to a treaty that outlaws torture. Torture is unlawful under the laws of this country. The president has said that in an executive order.

But beyond all of those legal restrictions, we don't torture, not simply because it's against this or that law, or against this or that treaty. It is not what this country is about. It is not what this country stands for. It's antithetical to everything this country stands for.
Soldiers of this country liberated concentration camps toward the end of World War II and at the end of World War II and photographed what they saw there as a record of what -- the barbarism that we oppose. We didn't do that so that we could then duplicate it ourselves.

The Bybee memo, to paraphrase a French diplomat, was worse than a sin, it was a mistake. It was unnecessary.


It, as I've read -- I mean, I've read the memo and I've read what's been -- some of what's been written about it -- it purported to justify measures based on broad grants of authority that were unnecessary.


The analysis in that memo was found to be defective, and the memo was withdrawn in favor of a later memo that narrowed substantially the basis for authorizing measures beyond, perhaps different from those that may be contained in the Army field manual.

I'm dizzy from all the spin here. He most definately did compare US torture to Nazis. Typical attitude from the many of those on the right: "It's ok if we do it, not ok if you do it. And when we do do it, we'll make something up to justify us doing it".
 
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oldbetang

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The United States of America approved and committeed atrocities under President Bush's administration, and I have no reason to believe that the United States of America under Bush & co. would have suddenly stopped torturing and abusing prisoners. To quote the chief of staff of the former Secretary of State General Colin Powell, U.S. Army Col. Larry Wilkerson, there's no question in my mind that the United States of America routinely tortured in the US-run facilities for years, and there's no question in my mind that the United States of America may be still doing it.

Where is the evidence? Where is the evidence that the incidents of torture that occurred at places like Abu Graib were approved of by the US government?


Too bad for you, then, that what happens in, say, Bagram hasn't exactly stayed in Bagram.

Military coroners ruled that both the prisoners' deaths were homicide.

Ongoing investigations and prosecutions

Ongoing investigations and prosecutions suggests that the Government does not approve the use of torture.

http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html

Washington has, for the first time, acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.

The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on on condition of anonymity.
Hmmmm! Makes you wonder. Then again, there is no allegation there that any incidents of torture were approved of or condoned by the US government.



The US-backed President of Afghanistan also acknowledges:


Karzai shock at US Afghan 'abuse'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4568031.stm

Afghan President Hamid Karzai has demanded action from the US after new details emerged of alleged abuse of prisoners by US troops in Afghanistan.

Officials in Washington said the alleged abuses detailed in the New York Times were being investigated and those responsible would be held to account.

Next!


As does, say, the US Army itself, for instance here.


More on the criminal investigations. Again , not helping make your case for you.
 
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oldbetang

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I'm dizzy from all the spin here. He most definately did compare US torture to Nazis. Typical attitude from the many of those on the right: "It's ok if we do it, not ok if you do it. And when we do do it, we'll make something up to justify us doing it".

What part of "we don't torture" don't you understand? He most definitely did not compare US torture to Nazis.
 
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Nathan Poe

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What part of "we don't torture" don't you understand?

The part where nobody else seems to get that he says "We don't torture" in the same sense that the administration uses "We don't torture" -- as in, "We perform acts which are abominations to human rights, but we choose not to call it 'torture,' ergo, we don't torture. We do, however, render suspected terrorists to foreign governments who do torture, but since they are not us, 'we' still don't torture."

Heard it all before.
 
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oldbetang

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The part where nobody else seems to get that he says "We don't torture" in the same sense that the administration uses "We don't torture" -- as in, "We perform acts which are abominations to human rights, but we choose not to call it 'torture,' ergo, we don't torture. We do, however, render suspected terrorists to foreign governments who do torture, but since they are not us, 'we' still don't torture."

Heard it all before.

You may have a point. Just imagine the agony that Noreiga went through listening to Van Halen's "Panama" over and over and over again. I hear that Barney the purple dinosaur's "I love you" song is a favorite tool of the US barbarians. Oh the horror!
 
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Nathan Poe

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You may have a point. Just imagine the agony that Noreiga went through listening to Van Halen's "Panama" over and over and over again. I hear that Barney the purple dinosaur's "I love you" song is a favorite tool of the US barbarians. Oh the horror!

Indeed, the horror of sitting in a freezing cold room naked in your own filth waiting for your twice-daily waterboarding.
 
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IzzyPop

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You know, the whole point of this thread was not whether or not the US tortures people. It was rather that a year or 2 ago a Democrat makes a comparison to our treatment of detainees and the right screams bloody murder, but now a Republican does it and you can hear the crickets chirp.

I do not care what people think about whether or not we torture. I care about the hypocrisy shown by people that are more concerned about what is best for their party over what is best for the country.
 
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Military coroners ruled that both the prisoners' deaths were homicide.

Homicide all right. Both were tortured to death. In a US-run facility in Afghanistan. By the US military personnel.

Mr. Dilawar had been chained by the wrists to the ceiling of his cell for four days without food or water. His legs had been repeatedly beaten by the US troops until he could neither stand nor bend and still he was denied the access to medical attention. By way of "interrogation" the US-style, besides beating him, the USAian interrogators stood on him, particularly concentrating on his groin.

What's worse, the USAian interrogators did so while not really even believing Mr. Dilawar was "guilty" of anything.

I guess they just felt the need to torture him to death simply because they knew they could, being the superior occupying force and all, and knew they could get away with it, as the White House had shopped for a "favourable" legal view that said what the White House wanted to hear, that the US-held detainees of a "failed state" were not really POWs at all and therefore were not covered by the international conventions forbidding torture and inhuman treatment in the hands of the United States of America. As Lt. Gen. Daniel K. McNeill, US troop commander in Afghanistan, put it, "Our interrogation techniques are in accordance with what is generally accepted as interrogation techniques."

Ongoing investigations and prosecutions suggests that the Government does not approve the use of torture.

Ongoing investigations and prosecutions suggests that the Bush administration has taken a novel departure of internationally accepted human rights and has fostered a culture of torture and impunity.

As Major General Paul D. Eaton of the US Army testified, "For our soldiers to hear their Vice President say on radio that a 'dunk in the water' is a 'no brainer' if it can save lives, is a threat to the good order and discipline of our Armed Forces. Water boarding is not safeguarding a prisoner, regardless of the conditions of their capture. To hear our CIA describe water boarding as a 'professional interrogation technique' is at once appalling and confusing to our men and women under arms.

"The good order and discipline of our Armed Forces begins with our Commander in Chief and must weave through the entire rank structure. The President must set the tone for our Youngest Private Soldier and the administration's policies today do not set the right tone."

Hmmmm! Makes you wonder. Then again, there is no allegation there that any incidents of torture were approved of or condoned by the US government.

Trying to poison the well again? Let me repeat, I'm afraid you have to do better than that. "Guardian is a leftist rag, therefore the united States of America does not torture" is a nonsense argument, as is "A United Nations official spoke with the condition of anonymity as is customary, therefore the United States of America cannot possibly practise torture."

There is no allegation there that any incidents of torture were not approved of nor condoned by the US government either, is there?

That's always been the Bush administrations policy. Deny everything as long as you can. Maher Arar: “We were not responsible for his removal to Syria.” -- Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. The US Department of State: "The United States does not do extraordinary renditions and does not run secret detention facilities" -- at least, not until the President is forced to admit that, uh, yes, actually we do.

More on the criminal investigations. Again , not helping make your case for you.

Criminal investigations which had led to convictions. Yet you claim that, quote, it has never been established that the US has ever tortured in Afghanistan.

If that's so, then why have US military personnel acting on behalf of the United States of America in Afghanistan been convicted for systematically abusing US-held prisoners in Afghanistan? Wouldn't it be a judical murder to convict your fellow citizens wearing your uniform for something you, supposedly, do not do and have never done?

Ah, right. I forgot. That magical little qualifier Mr. Poe mentions above. "The United States of America considers itself bound by the obligation under article 16 to prevent cruel, inhuman or degrading treatmentor punishment only in so far as

- US-held detainees are being shackled to the ceiling and dangled no longer than 72 hours; one more minute past that amounts to torture, unless a Presidential executive order is issued to give special presidential authorization to go beyond that.

- US-held detainees may be beaten with electric cables as long as the pain caused does not exceed severe; a Presidential executive order may override the rule.

- US-held detainees may be stomped upon as long as the collective weight of the US personnel standing upon the detainee does not exceed 270 lbs; a Presidential executive order may override the rule.

- US-held detainees may be sodomized with a blunt implement so long as the thickness of the implement does not exceed 3 inches; a Presidential executive order may override the rule if the President of the United States of America deems that the use of objects smaller than 3'' would prevent or limit administrative proceeding by the Central Intelligence Agency or by any individual acting on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency.

:sick:

To paraphrase the AG-designate Mukasey, the Bush administration's torture business is worse than a sin. Torture is immoral and ineffective.

The part where nobody else seems to get that he says "We don't torture" in the same sense that the administration uses "We don't torture" -- as in, "We perform acts which are abominations to human rights, but we choose not to call it 'torture,' ergo, we don't torture. We do, however, render suspected terrorists to foreign governments who do torture, but since they are not us, 'we' still don't torture."

Heard it all before.

Kind of like torturer is as torturer does, huh?
 
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Billnew

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I read the OP statement.
He clearly does not say what the OP says he said.

All abuses were done by the individuals accused of the crimes. Not by our national leaders. By all means if you have proof, call those higher ups, including the President
to face charges.
The most important charges that Congress has investigated is the legal firing of judges by Gonzales.
If the leaders f our country ordered torture, then wouldn't this be a much more important crime to hang the leaders on?
No conviction, means they can't prove any of the thousands of allegations they have hurled at our troops and at our leaders at all levels. But people still believe the garbage.
Innocent until proven guilty. So prove them of wrong doing.
Torture and mistreatment of prisoners is all the mistake of using our guard and reserves to guard prisoners. Guarding prisoners is a law enforcement job, not a detail. It is not soemthing any old Grunt can do.(long term, not just capturing a prisoner and moving him/her to a prison.)

Dang, you guys can't even get Bush impeached because of stupidity. Now that is pretty sad.
Bush has made alot of mistakes. But criminal? If you don't prove it, he will still be a step ahead of our previous President.
(Hint:Impeached and later convicted, Clinton.)
Doesn't take much to impeach a President, ecspecially
when that President's numbers are less then 2/3 of the country.(33%)
Clinton was impeached with above 40% approval rating.
(reminder: Clinton was impeached by the House, and the Senate refused to conduct the proceedings.)
 
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oldbetang

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Homicide all right. Both were tortured to death. In a US-run facility in Afghanistan. By the US military personnel.

Seven soldiers were charged. Meaning that the US does not approve of torture.

Ongoing investigations and prosecutions suggests that the Bush administration has taken a novel departure of internationally accepted human rights and has fostered a culture of torture and impunity.
Ongoing investigations and prosecutions suggests that the US does not condone torture.


As Major General Paul D. Eaton of the US Army testified, "For our soldiers to hear their Vice President say on radio that a 'dunk in the water' is a 'no brainer' if it can save lives, is a threat to the good order and discipline of our Armed Forces. Water boarding is not safeguarding a prisoner, regardless of the conditions of their capture. To hear our CIA describe water boarding as a 'professional interrogation technique' is at once appalling and confusing to our men and women under arms.

"The good order and discipline of our Armed Forces begins with our Commander in Chief and must weave through the entire rank structure. The President must set the tone for our Youngest Private Soldier and the administration's policies today do not set the right tone."
With all due respect to the Major General, he's wrong! A dunk in the water is a no brainer if it can save lives.

There is no allegation there that any incidents of torture were not approved of nor condoned by the US government either, is there?
Is that the way that it's supposed to work? I thought that the burden of proof was on the accuser.

Criminal investigations which had led to convictions. Yet you claim that, quote, it has never been established that the US has ever tortured in Afghanistan.
If there were convictions for tortures committed in Afghanistan, then I was wrong.


Ah, right. I forgot. That magical little qualifier Mr. Poe mentions above. "The United States of America considers itself bound by the obligation under article 16 to prevent cruel, inhuman or degrading treatmentor punishment only in so far as

- US-held detainees are being shackled to the ceiling and dangled no longer than 72 hours; one more minute past that amounts to torture, unless a Presidential executive order is issued to give special presidential authorization to go beyond that.

- US-held detainees may be beaten with electric cables as long as the pain caused does not exceed severe; a Presidential executive order may override the rule.

- US-held detainees may be stomped upon as long as the collective weight of the US personnel standing upon the detainee does not exceed 270 lbs; a Presidential executive order may override the rule.

- US-held detainees may be sodomized with a blunt implement so long as the thickness of the implement does not exceed 3 inches; a Presidential executive order may override the rule if the President of the United States of America deems that the use of objects smaller than 3'' would prevent or limit administrative proceeding by the Central Intelligence Agency or by any individual acting on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency.

:eek: What's up with that?? Are you suggesting that that is official US policy?


To paraphrase the AG-designate Mukasey, the Bush administration's torture business is worse than a sin. Torture is immoral and ineffective.

I prefer to quote Mukasey directly. "We don't torture".
 
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