Muhammad's statement on the tailbone

[TG123]

Then there is no difference in our belief of the Day of Resurrection.

We both believe there will be a Day of Resurrection. We have different beliefs about who will be saved and who will not be, on the Day of Judgement.

I dont think the focus was on the coccyx. There was 'no claim'. Rather the message was on the Day of Reckoning. Nobody was stressing on the scientific miracle/discovery. Only you were starting something on the hadith scientific miracle. Thought that was quite mischevious.

The focus was of course on the fact we will be resurrected, that is true. However, if you believe that God spoke through Muhammad, would it not imply that everything he said in the hadiths would have been from God?

So if Muhammad said that the coccyx does not decay but every other part of the body does, according to your belief, God said this. And we obviously know this is not true- the coccyx decays along with every other part of the body.

If you want to highlight on the scientific content of the hadith, then why not continue talking about how the bones could miraculously joined together, from the coccoyx? If that is possible with God, then what is impossible about the undestructiveness of the coccoyx?

The major difference is that no one knows how God will resurrect us. What part will He start with and finish with, and which bones will He join and how, only He alone knows. Challenging Muhammad's claim that God will start with the coccyx would be futile as well as stupid, since it is a matter of belief... we won't know until He puts us back together. One can neither prove nor disprove that God will start with the tailbone. Challenging such a statement would be erroneous.

On the other hand, while it can't be proven that God will not resurrect us from the tailbone, it can be proven that the tailbone decays, like every other part of the human body. The statement that the earth consumed every son of Adam but only leaves his spinal chord or tailbone or coccyx, depending on the hadith and translation, is simply not true. As examples I have demonstrated have shown, some bodies decompose along with the skeleton, to the point where there are no bones at all left. Or at least in one case, the bones that remain are not the coccyx.

If I were to tell you that when God created the sun, it was originally blue and that it will be blue on the Day of Judgement, there would have been no way for you to prove or disprove my statement, it would be a matter of faith. If I were to say that it is currently blue, it would be a different story.

I can't disprove the statement that God will rebuild our bodies beginning with the coccyx, nor would I waste my time trying to do that. I can however easily disprove the statement that the earth dissolves every part of the human body except the coccyx.

 

[Islam_mulia]

My points:

i) I reiterate - the hadith does not have any scientific connotation, else if you insists otherwise, then explain how the bones could be joined together from the coccyx in the grave.

ii) It is possible that the people of the old believe that mankind was created from the cocyyx and when they are raised again in the Day of Judgement, they will be raised again from the coccyx.

iii) The hadith is not the Quran, the latter being the actual words of God, as Muslims believe.

 

[TG123]

Salaam Alaikum, Islam_Mulia.

My points:

i) I reiterate - the hadith does not have any scientific connotation, else if you insists otherwise, then explain how the bones could be joined together from the coccyx in the grave.

I am not making either the statement that the coccyx will not decompose, or that God will join the bodies from it when He raises everyone up. Muhammad made that claim, not me. It is impossible to disprove the second part of his claim, it is very possible to disprove the first part.

ii) It is possible that the people of the old believe that mankind was created from the cocyyx and when they are raised again in the Day of Judgement, they will be raised again from the coccyx.

That is a possibility, and not what we are discussing. We have no way of knowing which bone God created humanity from, and which bone He will start with when He puts our bodies back together.

We are discussing the statement that when people die, every part of their body decomposes except the coccyx bone.

That is false.

iii) The hadith is not the Quran, the latter being the actual words of God, as Muslims believe.

Are not Muslims also obliged to follow the hadiths? After all, this is what the Quran says of Muhammad:

He does not speak on his own, out of his own desire; That is but a Revelation that is revealed to him.
[Quran 53:3-4]

Tafsir Ibn Abbas states that this is in regard to the Quran, but other Muslims also state this applies to the hadiths. According to them, you cannot be a Muslim if you reject the hadiths, since God inspired Muhammad and Muslims are told to obey God and the Messenger.

http://scanislam.com/articles/importance-of-sunnah-hadiths/

The Importance of Hadith in Islam - Hadith Studies - Shari`ah - OnIslam.net

Granted, there are some Muslims (a minority) who reject the hadiths.
Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Are you a Quranist Muslim? I am just curious.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that Muhammad stated that the coccyx bone is the only part of the human body that does not decompose... and this is false. He said this in the context of describing how we will be put back together on the Day of Judgement.

A thought to consider- if Muhammad made an error in a teaching describing the Day of Resurrection, who was he being guided by? Obviously, God would not have made a mistake by saying the coccyx bone does not decompose, when it obviously does. Where was he getting his information from? Clearly, not God.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Salaam Alaikum, Islam_Mulia.


I am not making either the statement that the coccyx will not decompose, or that God will join the bodies from it when He raises everyone up. Muhammad made that claim, not me. It is impossible to disprove the second part of his claim, it is very possible to disprove the first part.


That is a possibility, and not what we are discussing. We have no way of knowing which bone God created humanity from, and which bone He will start with when He puts our bodies back together.

We are discussing the statement that when people die, every part of their body decomposes except the coccyx bone.

The hadith was talking about the re-creation of a human body, starting from the coccyx, on the Day of Judgement. That is the main message.

Are not Muslims also obliged to follow the hadiths? After all, this is what the Quran says of Muhammad:

He does not speak on his own, out of his own desire; That is but a Revelation that is revealed to him. [Quran 53:3-4]

i) Muslims are obliged to follow the Quran and hadith.

i) The verse you quoted above, the 'Revelation' refers to the Quran.

iii) The hadith are NOT the words of God, unlike the Quran. Muslims take the lessons, guidance and instructions from the Sunnah and hadith. We are not obliged to accept something from the hadith that we could not explain, but we accept the spiritual message from the hadith.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas states that this is in regard to the Quran, but other Muslims also state this applies to the hadiths. According to them, you cannot be a Muslim if you reject the hadiths, since God inspired Muhammad and Muslims are told to obey God and the Messenger.

Already explained above. Do note that I do not reject the hadith. Rather I understood and believe the message that we will all be physically raised on the Day of Judgement to account for our deeds.

http://scanislam.com/articles/importance-of-sunnah-hadiths/

Granted, there are some Muslims (a minority) who reject the hadiths.
Quran-Islam.org - True Islam

Some Muslim scholars regard them as non-Muslims.

Are you a Quranist Muslim? I am just curious.

Definitely not.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that Muhammad stated that the coccyx bone is the only part of the human body that does not decompose... and this is false. He said this in the context of describing how we will be put back together on the Day of Judgement.

A thought to consider- if Muhammad made an error in a teaching describing the Day of Resurrection, who was he being guided by? Obviously, God would not have made a mistake by saying the coccyx bone does not decompose, when it obviously does. Where was he getting his information from? Clearly, not God.

i) God does not say that the coccyx will not decay or decompose. You said that.

ii) The hadith does not give much details on why the Prophet said the coccyx will not decay. It is possible that the full story and its context have not been fully written. Without that, I only take the spiritual message.

iii) Just a question, and since you are obviously trying hard to discredit Islam, can you please find the Arabic for the hadith you indicated and let us know the Arabic for 'decay'.

 

[TG123]

The hadith was talking about the re-creation of a human body, starting from the coccyx, on the Day of Judgement. That is the main message.

Sure, but part of the main message included a statement that the coccyx bone is the only part of the human body that does not decay. That is a false statement.

i) Muslims are obliged to follow the Quran and hadith.

Are you obliged to believe in what is in the hadiths?

i) The verse you quoted above, the 'Revelation' refers to the Quran.

Yes, that is true.

iii) The hadith are NOT the words of God, unlike the Quran. Muslims take the lessons, guidance and instructions from the Sunnah and hadith. We are not obliged to accept something from the hadith that we could not explain, but we accept the spiritual message from the hadith.

If the hadith are not the words of God, where are they from? Obviously Muhammad, but where did he get his sayings from? Are you allowed to accept some authentic sayings of Muhammad and to not accept others?

Already explained above. Do note that I do not reject the hadith.

Noted.

Rather I understood and believe the message that we will all be physically raised on the Day of Judgement to account for our deeds.

We have no disagreement on this, in fact, we agree. I even have no disagreement with the statement that when God will resurrect us, He will start with our tailbone. The Bible does not specify which bone He will use first, and I will not speculate.

What I disagree with is the statement that the coccyx does not decay. It does. Muhammad was wrong on that one. And he said this while speaking on a very Godly matter, namely, the resurrection. Who gave him such inaccurate and false information?

Some Muslim scholars regard them as non-Muslims.

I have read this also. What is your take on that? Sorry, I know that is off-topic of this thread and I am derailing it a bit but hey, I started it.

Definitely not.

Fair enough.

i) God does not say that the coccyx will not decay or decompose. You said that.

Actually, Muhammad said that.

ii) The hadith does not give much details on why the Prophet said the coccyx will not decay. It is possible that the full story and its context have not been fully written. Without that, I only take the spiritual message.

We can speculate on what was or wasn't written, but the fact is, he said the coccyx does not decay. There are a few mentions of him saying this in the hadiths.

The coccyx does decay, like all other parts of the body.

iii) Just a question, and since you are obviously trying hard to discredit Islam, can you please find the Arabic for the hadith you indicated and let us know the Arabic for 'decay'.

I am neither an Arab speaker or an expert in Arabic, and I don't pretend to be one online. Probably why I could never work for 'answering-islam' or Jack Chick ministries, who have more fake 'experts' in Arabic than George Bush had problems with common sense. I am relying on Search Engine: Search in the Quran القران الكريم and Hadith -- Learn about Islam and Muslims. Islamic Softwares, Azan, Athan, Qiblah, Prayer Times, Quran Hadith, Islamic Supplictaions, Azan Athan software for Mobile Cell Phone. and other Muslim sites that I have quoted in my original post. If their translations are off, please show me.

All praises be to Allah- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Sure, but part of the main message included a statement that the coccyx bone is the only part of the human body that does not decay. That is a false statement.
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What is the Arabic for 'decay' in the original text?

Are you obliged to believe in what is in the hadiths?

I believe in both the Quran and the hadith.

If the hadith are not the words of God, where are they from? Obviously Muhammad, but where did he get his sayings from? Are you allowed to accept some authentic sayings of Muhammad and to not accept others?

The hadiths are collection of the deeds and words of Muhammad (pbuh). There is a science to differentiate the level of authenticity of the hadith. Some are sahih, some are moderately acceptable, some are disputed.

What I disagree with is the statement that the coccyx does not decay. It does. Muhammad was wrong on that one. And he said this while speaking on a very Godly matter, namely, the resurrection. Who gave him such inaccurate and false information?

i) What is the Arabic for decay in the original text?

ii) There are a few hadiths talking about the coccyx. You will notice that the writings may differ from one to the other, although the message is the same. My point is the collector of hadith may be doing his best to preserve the words and the messages, but the actual words may not always be preserved. The hadith, unlike the Quran, is not from God.

 

[TG123]

What is the Arabic for 'decay' in the original text?

I don't know. Are you saying that Muhammad did not state that the coccyx bone does not decay?

I believe in both the Quran and the hadith.

Then you believe that the coccyx does not decay, right?

The hadiths are collection of the deeds and words of Muhammad (pbuh). There is a science to differentiate the level of authenticity of the hadith. Some are sahih, some are moderately acceptable, some are disputed.

The hadiths I quoted are from Bukhari and Muslim. Do you have any evidence that they are not sahih?

[/color]
i) What is the Arabic for decay in the original text?

I don't know. Why are you asking me?

ii) There are a few hadiths talking about the coccyx. You will notice that the writings may differ from one to the other, although the message is the same. My point is the collector of hadith may be doing his best to preserve the words and the messages, but the actual words may not always be preserved. The hadith, unlike the Quran, is not from God.
[/color]

[/quote]
Here are the relevant hadiths from Bukhari and Muslim:

(1) Narrated Al--Amash: Abu Huraira said, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Between the two sounds of the trumpet, there will be forty." Somebody asked Abu Huraira, "Forty days?" But he refused to reply. Then he asked, "Forty months?" He refused to reply. Then he asked, "Forty years?" Again, he refused to reply. Abu Huraira added. "Then (after this period) Allah will send water from the sky and then the dead bodies will grow like vegetation grows, There is nothing of the human body that does not decay except one bone; that is the little bone at the end of the coccyx of which the human body will be recreated on the Day of Resurrection." (See Hadith No. 338) (Book #60, Hadith #457)

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Between the two blowiings of the trumpet (there would be an interval of forty). They said: Abu Huraira, do you mean forty days? He said: I cannot say anything. They said: Do you mean fortv months? He said: I cannot say anything They said: Do you mean forty years? He said: I cannot say anything. Then Allah would cause the water to, descend from the sky and they (people) will sprout like vegetable The only thing in a man which would not decay would be one bone (spinal chord) from which the whole frame would be reconstituted on the Day of Resurrection.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as say- ing: The earth would consume every son of Adam except his spinal chord from which his body would be reconstituted (on the Day of Resurrection).

Abu Huraira reported so many ahadith from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and amongst these one was this that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: There is a bone in the human being which the earth would never consume and it is from this that new bodies would be reconstituted (on the Day of Resurrection). They said: Allah's Messenger, which bone is that? Thereupon he said: It is the spinal bone.

Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

Each one of them states that there is a bone that does not decay or get eaten up by the earth. Some of them state this bone is the spinal cord, others that it is the little bone at the end of the coccyx. All of these statements as we know are false, since both the coccyx and spinal bone and spinal cord do decompose after death.

So again I ask you, where was Muhammad getting this misinformation from?

 

[Islam_mulia]

Here are the relevant hadiths from Bukhari and Muslim:

(1) Narrated Al--Amash: Abu Huraira said, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Between the two sounds of the trumpet, there will be forty." Somebody asked Abu Huraira, "Forty days?" But he refused to reply. Then he asked, "Forty months?" He refused to reply. Then he asked, "Forty years?" Again, he refused to reply. Abu Huraira added. "Then (after this period) Allah will send water from the sky and then the dead bodies will grow like vegetation grows, There is nothing of the human body that does not decay except one bone; that is the little bone at the end of the coccyx of which the human body will be recreated on the Day of Resurrection." (See Hadith No. 338) (Book #60, Hadith #457)


Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Between the two blowiings of the trumpet (there would be an interval of forty). They said: Abu Huraira, do you mean forty days? He said: I cannot say anything. They said: Do you mean fortv months? He said: I cannot say anything They said: Do you mean forty years? He said: I cannot say anything. Then Allah would cause the water to, descend from the sky and they (people) will sprout like vegetable The only thing in a man which would not decay would be one bone (spinal chord) from which the whole frame would be reconstituted on the Day of Resurrection.

Please take note that the Prophet spoke of the sounds of trumpets, not the coccyx or spinal cord. Abu Hurairah was the one reported to mention about the coccyx.

The message of mankind being brought back to life on the Day of Judgement was still relevant as this has been mentioned in several hadiths and the Quran.

It is possible that several stories of the Resurrection, from the Prophet to Abu Hurairah, were being collected as one hadith.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as say- ing: The earth would consume every son of Adam except his spinal chord from which his body would be reconstituted (on the Day of Resurrection).

Abu Huraira reported so many ahadith from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and amongst these one was this that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: There is a bone in the human being which the earth would never consume and it is from this that new bodies would be reconstituted (on the Day of Resurrection). They said: Allah's Messenger, which bone is that? Thereupon he said: It is the spinal bone.

Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

I believe the reference should be on the bones of Prophets, martyrs and righteous men which will not decay (should be in one of the hadith). How the inclusiveness of all mankind and the mention of the cocyyx in one hadith is something beyond me.

Nevertheless, the message remains that on the Day of Judgement, we will all be raised to account for our deeds.

 

[TG123]

Salaam Alaikum.

Please take note that the Prophet spoke of the sounds of trumpets, not the coccyx or spinal cord. Abu Hurairah was the one reported to mention about the coccyx.

Either that, or he was quoting what Muhammad said. As you pointed out in the hadiths you pasted below these ones, Muhammad did indeed say that the coccyx does not decay.

The message of mankind being brought back to life on the Day of Judgement was still relevant as this has been mentioned in several hadiths and the Quran.

Of course, but that isn't what we are discussing. I believe in the Day of Resurrection and Day of Judgement also, as do all Christians and many people of other faiths.

It is possible that several stories of the Resurrection, from the Prophet to Abu Hurairah, were being collected as one hadith.

Only Muhammad was quoted as saying directly that the coccyx will not decay.

I believe the reference should be on the bones of Prophets, martyrs and righteous men which will not decay (should be in one of the hadith). How the inclusiveness of all mankind and the mention of the cocyyx in one hadith is something beyond me.

It is beyond me too, why Muhammad would make such an erroneous statement, but he did. Where do you think he was getting this false information from?

Nevertheless, the message remains that on the Day of Judgement, we will all be raised to account for our deeds.

That isn't what we are discussing here. We are discussing the obvious error that Muhammad made about the coccyx not decaying in the human body of every person, when it is extremely clear that it does.

 

[Basel]

Quran or authentic Hadith are not books of science, they are books of religion, faith that clarify relationship of humans with God, with other humans and with the world. The resurrection Hadiths are certainly taken out of context. The exact meaning of the words is debatable. The exact size of the part that remains is not mentioned. We know now that a DNA strand is sufficient to reproduce body of the individual. How memories and feelings are reproduced is not known yet, but science will get is there. What I am sure is that if the Hadith is authentic then One day science will come up with a similar finding. Until now, nothing in the Quran or authentic Hadith has been disproven by proven science. Similarly, lots of things mentioned in Quran and authentic Hadith are being proven as science develops.
I blame Muslims for waiting for western science to discover things then saying Quran said this 1500 years ago. I hope they will do the reverse, Start with a Quranic scientific hint and try to research it. This is more useful for humans and serves Islam's message better. Islam is supposed to be the last message to humans and carries sufficient guidance for all of us to live a better life.
It is not allowed by Islam to attack other religions. Similarly, it is not right for others to attack Islam. People should do the research and find out. As believers in God, we are accountable on an individual basis. There is no mass judgement or accountability. I advise all to study Quran and true teachings of prophet Mohammad peace be upon him. He was a great and kind man. You only need to find out. This excessive fog and dust is hurting the truth.

 

[Fizzywig]

Quran or authentic Hadith are not books of science, they are books of religion, faith that clarify relationship of humans with God, with other humans and with the world. The resurrection Hadiths are certainly taken out of context. The exact meaning of the words is debatable. The exact size of the part that remains is not mentioned. We know now that a DNA strand is sufficient to reproduce body of the individual. How memories and feelings are reproduced is not known yet, but science will get is there. What I am sure is that if the Hadith is authentic then One day science will come up with a similar finding. Until now, nothing in the Quran or authentic Hadith has been disproven by proven science. Similarly, lots of things mentioned in Quran and authentic Hadith are being proven as science develops.
I blame Muslims for waiting for western science to discover things then saying Quran said this 1500 years ago. I hope they will do the reverse, Start with a Quranic scientific hint and try to research it. This is more useful for humans and serves Islam's message better. Islam is supposed to be the last message to humans and carries sufficient guidance for all of us to live a better life.
It is not allowed by Islam to attack other religions. Similarly, it is not right for others to attack Islam. People should do the research and find out. As believers in God, we are accountable on an individual basis. There is no mass judgement or accountability. I advise all to study Quran and true teachings of prophet Mohammad peace be upon him. He was a great and kind man. You only need to find out. This excessive fog and dust is hurting the truth.

Basel, thank you for your post.

There is certainly a lot of fog and dust out there. Maybe we need to concentrate on what obscures our own vision?

Thanks again

 

[Basel]

Basel, thank you for your post.

There is certainly a lot of fog and dust out there. Maybe we need to concentrate on what obscures our own vision?

Thanks again

 

[Basel]

Namu,
Thanks for your kind response. It is very unfortunate that media seeks thrill and excitement. There is plenty of thrill and news in what some ignorant Muslims do or say. Keep in mind that the Muslim world is generally backward and lagging. We can not deny that this backwardness is strongly connected to prevailing understanding/misunderstanding of Islam. This is because religion is the primary driving potential of Muslims regardless of how religious/unreligious they are. Using the Hadith in this post to argue for Islam is an example of the lack of simple logic in making arguments by plenty of Muslims. Why would any one use this specific Hadith to argue for or against Islam. The process is flawed. There are serious and more fundamental points to focus on.

 

[Basel]

And it surprises me why a Christian would put so much effort in digging up these Hadiths. Let us assume that I agree that the Hadiths were wrong, what is the alternative? To be a Christian? Do you think this is a solution? Or is the important thing is not to be a Muslim and that is it. The first option carries much higher level of uncertainty, contradiction with science and much more bloody verses. This kind of arguments of counter productive and enhances hate. Let us focus on the beautiful things in our religions, exchange them and learn from one another. If some one decides to switch face, good luck for him.

 

[Fizzywig]

Namu,
Thanks for your kind response. It is very unfortunate that media seeks thrill and excitement. There is plenty of thrill and news in what some ignorant Muslims do or say. Keep in mind that the Muslim world is generally backward and lagging. We can not deny that this backwardness is strongly connected to prevailing understanding/misunderstanding of Islam. This is because religion is the primary driving potential of Muslims regardless of how religious/unreligious they are. Using the Hadith in this post to argue for Islam is an example of the lack of simple logic in making arguments by plenty of Muslims. Why would any one use this specific Hadith to argue for or against Islam. The process is flawed. There are serious and more fundamental points to focus on.

Thank you. Unfortunately there seems a predisposition in many of us to only engage our critical faculties and the intellect we have been born with when the scriptures and such of some others Faith is under consideration.

No matter, welcome to the Forum.

 

[Fizzywig]

Let us focus on the beautiful things in our religions, exchange them and learn from one another.

Yes. Thank you.

 

[smaneck]

Salaam Alaikum. When talking about the Resurrection of human beings to be judged by God, Muhammad stated that when we die, our whole body will decay, except for one bone. He claimed that the tailbone (or the bone at the end of it) will remain, everything else will be decayed by the earth. This statement is quoted in several authentic hadiths, from Bukhari and Muslim.

Yeah, but they are all conveyed through a single narrator. In other words only one person thinks he heard the Prophet say this.

 

[smaneck]

The bone near our a...um, backside is proof of Islam's Allah?

nobody said that.

 

[smaneck]

This post is intended to present yet more proof that God was not speaking through Muhammad. God does not make mistakes.

The Qur'an and an occasional hadith qudsi represents God speaking through Muhammad, not everything that happens to pop out of his mouth.

I encourage our Muslim friends on this forum to read this and respond. Hopefully one day they too will come to the realization that Islam is not the truth, and will turn to Jesus Christ and accept Him as their Saviour and Lord.

Maybe you should take it to the debate forum, then.

 

[Niblo]

nobody said that.

Hello Susan.

How's tricks?

Very best regards.

Paul