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Featured Islam Muhammads Isra

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by mindlight, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The claim is made in the Quran and hadiths that Muhammad journeyed to the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem on a winged white mule called Buraq from the Great Mosque in Mecca in about 621 AD (The Isra). Then he had his journey to heaven from there (Mi'raj). But since the Al-Aqsa mosque was built 70 years later this is clearly not true. Muhammad had never been to Jerusalem so he probably spoke out of ignorance.

    Glory to Him Who carried His beloved by night from the Sacred Masjid to the Furthest Masjid, whose precincts We have blessed, to show him of Our wonders! He it is Who is All-Hearing, All-Seeing:
    Quran 17:1

    So since the facts about this vision are all wrong. Did Muhammad just make it up. Or was it added to the Quran later (e.g. after the building of the Al-Aqsa mosque)
     
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  2. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    A mosque doesn't require a building, it is a place for prayer. The ruins were still there, which Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) described.
     
  3. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    There is no hadith to support this interpretation and it is not the way the Arabic words work here.

    "There is not ahadith (plural of hadith) support this interpretation. The Masjid in Jerusalem was built after Muhammad's lifetime in 690-691, and the term used for mosque (masjid (Arabic: مَـسْـجِـد‎)) occurs only for building structure of worship, but does not mean to site or a location without building structure"

    Isra and Mi'raj - Wikipedia
     
  4. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    You favorite source doesn't state clearly or at all the source of what you quoted.

    "الأَرْضُ كُلُّهَا مَسْجِدٌ إِلاَّ الْمَقْبَرَةَ وَالْحَمَّامَ

    "The Messenger of Allah said: 'All the earth is a mosque, except for graveyards and Hammam.'"

    The Book On The Mosques And The Congregations - Sunan Ibn Majah - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

    Masjid is not just a building. It doesn't require a building. The whole mount is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
     
  5. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Well there you go rationalising facts away but this does not work in this case. Muhammad counted the doors of the mosque which seems a little disingenuous unless there were doors of an actual mosque to count.

    The narrator added: Many people who had embraced Islam and offered prayers went astray. (The Prophet continued,) I stood at al-Hijr, visualised Bayt al-Muqaddas and described its signs. Some of them said: How many doors are there in that mosque? I had not counted them so I began to look at it and counted them one by one and gave them information concerning them. I also gave information about their caravan which was on the way and its signs. They found them as I had related (Kitab al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir by Ibn Sa’d)
     
  6. Limo

    Limo Well-Known Member

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    If you just read Islamic sources for 2 minutes, you would not copy-past from your debate books.

    Al-Masgd Al-Aqsa is not built by Moslems. Prophet Ibraheem himself builds it. Prophet Ibraheem has built Al-Kaaba in Makkah and Al-Aqsa in Al-qods (Orshaleem).

    Moslem were praying towards Al-Aqsa while in Makka, Allah ordered Prophet to change the prayer towards Makka later.

    Do you see now?

    You have built a case based on false assumptions from false books.

    Give it a try and read some Islamic references instead of these black propaganda sources.

    Regards
     
  7. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The doors were the gates to the area.
     
  8. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Sorry the fact is that there was no mosque on the temple mount at the time of Muhammad. There may have been a small church before the Sassine Empire took Jerusalem in 610. But it seems that may have been torn down by the Jews who tried to rebuild the temple under Sassine rule till 615. After 615 the Christians had charge of the Mount under the Sassine's and they tore down the Jewish temple and turned the place into a garbage dump. That is what Muhammad would have seen in 619-21 AD had he actually visited the place. It was definitely not a place to have a journey to heaven from.

    When Herod built the temple he went deep to build the foundations erasing all traces of Solomon's temples and any earlier constructions. The foundations of the Temple Mount today have no trace of any Abrahamic church or Solomonic temple - they are what Herod carved to build the temple of Jesus time.
     
  9. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Then they were the gates to a rubbish tip not a mosque. That does not fit the hadiths description either.
     
  10. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The person you quoted didn't specifically say there was a mosque at the time of Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). He might mean the time before that. Though it may also have been Adam who built the mosque first.

    "I said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Which mosque was first built on the surface of the earth?" He said, "Al- Masjid-ul-,Haram (in Mecca)." I said, "Which was built next?" He replied "The mosque of Al-Aqsa ( in Jerusalem) ." I said, "What was the period of construction between the two?" He said, "Forty years." He added, "Wherever (you may be, and) the prayer time becomes due, perform the prayer there, for the best thing is to do so (i.e. to offer the prayers in time)."

    Hadith - Book of Prophets - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
     
  11. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    What description?
     
  12. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The narrator added: Many people who had embraced Islam and offered prayers went astray. (The Prophet continued,) I stood at al-Hijr, visualised Bayt al-Muqaddas and described its signs. Some of them said: How many doors are there in that mosque? I had not counted them so I began to look at it and counted them one by one and gave them information concerning them. I also gave information about their caravan which was on the way and its signs. They found them as I had related (Kitab al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir by Ibn Sa’d)
     
  13. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    There is a significant amount of Muslim commentary confirming the established view of Muslims is that the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem is the one referred to by Muhammad for his Isra.

    For example when the Muslims took Jerusalem Umar read Sura 17 on entering Jerusalem according to al-Tabari vol.12 p.19

    Umar did not pray in the mosque because there was no mosque.

    The site of the mosque in Jerusalem is where the Jewish Temple stood. As previously said at that time it was a rubbish heap.

    ‘Umar told the people to follow his example in clearing the rubbish away' al-Tabari vol.12 p.195-196

    Qur’an translator Yusuf ‘Ali in footnote 2168. “The Farthest Mosque must refer to the site of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem on the hill of Moriah, at or near which
    stands the Dome of the Rock, called also the Mosque of Hadhrat ‘Umar. This and the Mosque known as the Farthest Mosque (Masjid-ul-Aqsa)
    …”

    Bukhari vol.5 book 58 no.226 p.142 repeats that Muhammad affirmed this:

    Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah that he heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “When the people of Quraish did not believe me (i.e. the story of my Night Journey), I stood up in Al-Hijr and Allah displayed Jerusalem in front of me, and I began describing it to them while I was looking at it.”

    You could say it was just a vision or that he went somewhere else but not that he visited the Temple Mount site. He is clearly ignorant of what was there. The tradition says he visited a mosque in Jerusalem but there was no mosque and this was a surprise to Umar one of Muhammads companions who knew what his master had believed.

    http://www.menorah.org/Muhammad’s Alleged Night Journey in Sura 17.pdf
     
  14. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The gates again? You're not making sense. Do you have reason to believe there were no gates whatsoever to the area? Or rather, is that what you're arguing? It seems like the only description you speak of, but you haven't directly denied there were gates.
     
  15. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Nothing new here. The same argument as before which I refuted and you pretend I didn't.
     
  16. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Muhammad was clearly talking about the doors of a mosque rather than gates to the site as a whole. So it is a moot point.
     
  17. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    You have a rather inflated view of the power of your arguments if you think they constituted a refutation.

    Fact is Caliph Umar when he conquered Jerusalem expected to find a mosque there matching the description which Muhammad had given. He even read sura 17 when he entered the city. What he found instead was a rubbish dump on the site of a Jewish attempt to rebuild the temple AND no mosque. He then made up some rather lame excuse not to pray and worship with the Patriarch in a church and left.

    Muslim tradition has been well nigh unanimous in describing Muhammads Isra to Jerusalem and to a mosque. BUT THERE WAS NO MOSQUE so all this demonstrates is Muhammads ignorance of the Temple MOunt when he made up his account of the Isra and Miraj
     
  18. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The tafsirs and certain Hadiths describe Mohammed as opening the doors of the masjid and entering through them, so it was obviously a building tafsir Ibn Kathir the most reliable tafsir among Sunni Muslims also supports the viewpoint it was a physical building that Mohammed prayed in. The only ruins that would have been there of the original temple at the time would be bricks here and there and the western wall of course.
     
  19. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Abraham never went to Arabia, why would he anyways, the area where Mecca was was regarded as barren and deserted during the time of Abraham, the only inhabited areas in the Arabian Peninsula were Yemen or south Arabia, Eastern Arabia or on the coasts, or in the Northern part close to Mesopotamia and the Levant. Most of Hejaz at the time was uninhabited and infertile anyways why would Abraham leave Mesopotamia and the Levant for there and why would God tell him to do so if the land that was promised to him was Canaan while he was in the city of Ur in Mesopotamia which is in modern day Iraq. How does any of this make any sense from a religious or logical perspective. As for the temple in Jerusalem it was built by King Solomon, atleast the first one was before it was destroyed by the Babylonians and then rebuilt after the Israelites were resettled there by the Persians, the second temple was then destroyed in 70 AD by the Roman Empire, and aside from many failed attempts to rebuild a third temple nothing has ever really stood on the mount close enough to the first and second temple.
     
  20. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    and parts of the walls with doorways.
     
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