Islam Muhammads' genocide: Banu Qurayza

[summerville]

They also practiced human sacrifice on infants, there has been evidence that the Phoenicians a people descended from the Canaanites practiced human sacrifice usually on children. Not to mention that they were responsible for turning the Israelites away from God afterwards. A Nestorian presence in Arabia between the fifth and seventh centuries would have been before Mohammed started preaching his new faith.

So did the Israelites practice child sacrifice.

Why do you think the Phoenicians turned the Israelites away from God?

 

[Barney2.0]

So did the Israelites practice child sacrifice.

Why do you think the Phoenicians turned the Israelites away from God?

They probably did when they ended up worshipping Baal and other pagan gods and God punished them for it. The Canaanites not the Phoenicians turned the Israelites away from God (although the Phoenicians were descendants of the Canaanites), the Israelites intermarried with the Canaanites and were influenced by them.

 

[summerville]

That was the treaty:

http://www.rogerlouismartinez.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/The-Pact-of-Umar-7th-Century.pdf

Why are you defending (don’t deny you are) the actions of Mohammed’s blasphemous faith?

Roger Martinez? LOL..

Only able bodied men paid Jizya.. so they didn't have any military obligation to defend the community.

Muslims cook and eat on the roof tops so privacy for their women is important.

They invited Jews to return to Jerusalem.. They'd been banned since Hadrian.

I don't consider Judaism or Christianity blasphemous.. I am a Christian who spent decades in the Arab world.. Your hatred is disturbing and very unattractive..

 

[summerville]

They probably did when they ended up worshipping Baal and other pagan gods and God punished them for it. The Canaanites not the Phoenicians turned the Israelites away from God (although the Phoenicians were descendants of the Canaanites), the Israelites intermarried with the Canaanites and were influenced by them.

The Israelites were Canaanites from the Northcoast of Syria.. If not they were Marsh Arabs from Ur instead of Urfa.

 

[Barney2.0]

Roger Martinez? LOL..

Only able bodied men paid Jizya.. so they didn't have any military obligation to defend the community.

Muslims cook and eat on the roof tops so privacy for their women is important.

They invited Jews to return to Jerusalem.. They'd been banned since Hadrian.

I don't consider Judaism or Christianity blasphemous.. I am a Christian who spent decades in the Arab world.. Your hatred is disturbing and very unattractive..

Roger Martinez didn’t write the sources:

The Pact of Umar

Ok then your not a Christian, Judaism doesn’t believe in Jesus is the Christ so according to the scriptures and Apostolic teaching it’s not only heretical, but blasphemous.

Obviously only able bodied people would pay jizyah, why would any state levy tax on beggars or those who don’t have money unless in desperation. However if you don’t pay jizyah then your obliged to convert to Islam, or are forced into military service or both at once. Muslims don’t eat on roof tops, what are you even talking about? Where is that even stated as an Islamic ruling, in most Arab
countries there’s a wall separating houses so you don’t need to go dine on a roof top to get privacy.

They invited Jews back in because it grants them a greater income base, it gives them more people to levy tax on, they didn’t invite them in as an act of kindness. As we see how Jews were treated in Arabia by Mohammedans. Also it’s worth nothing that the Jews didn’t really deserve entering the city anyways, for one they helped the Persians sack be city and massacre the coyotes Christian population only a few years prior to the Mohammadan conquest of the city.

I’m a Christian who was born and raised in the Arab world and speak Arabic, and I’m ethnically “Arab.” I expressed no hatred towards Mohammedans in any of my posts, you on the other hand are revealing yourself to be a liberal in disguise.

 

[Barney2.0]

The Israelites were Canaanites from the Northcoast of Syria.. If not they were Marsh Arabs from Ur instead of Urfa.

The Israelites and Canaanites weren’t the same people, it also goes to tell me that you don’t believe the Biblical accounts of how the Israelites migrated into Canaan. There were no Arabs in Iraq or Mesopotamia at the time of the late Bronze Age.

 

[createdtoworship]

That was the treaty:

http://www.rogerlouismartinez.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/The-Pact-of-Umar-7th-Century.pdf

Why are you defending (don’t deny you are) the actions of Mohammed’s blasphemous faith?

I wonder about that myself when debating this user.

 

[summerville]

Roger Martinez didn’t write the sources:

The Pact of Umar

Ok then your not a Christian, Judaism doesn’t believe in Jesus is the Christ so according to the scriptures and Apostolic teaching it’s not only heretical, but blasphemous.

Obviously only able bodied people would pay jizyah, why would any state levy tax on beggars or those who don’t have money unless in desperation. However if you don’t pay jizyah then your obliged to convert to Islam, or are forced into military service or both at once. Muslims don’t eat on roof tops, what are you even talking about? Where is that even stated as an Islamic ruling, in most Arab
countries there’s a wall separating houses so you don’t need to go dine on a roof top to get privacy.

They invited Jews back in because it grants them a greater income base, it gives them more people to levy tax on, they didn’t invite them in as an act of kindness. As we see how Jews were treated in Arabia by Mohammedans.

Also it’s worth nothing that the Jews didn’t really deserve entering the city anyways, for one they helped the Persians sack be city and massacre the coyotes Christian population only a few years prior to the Mohammadan conquest of the city.

I’m a Christian who was born and raised in the Arab world and speak Arabic, and I’m ethnically “Arab.” I expressed no hatred towards Mohammedans in any of my posts, you on the other hand are revealing yourself to be a liberal in disguise.

I am a Christian.. Able bodied men paid Jizya not women, children or the elderly.

You're Egyptian or of Egyptian heritage, aren't you?

In the old days Arab houses were built like thick walled towers so they operated like a chimney flue drawing cool air up thru the house and out the roof. They had funny stairs called camel stairs where the family donkey could haul fuel and food to the roof to be cooked. They also slept on the roof.

On the ground floor there was a tiny, shallow stone cooking area used mostly to prepare coffee for guests.

Really horribly clever way of coping with the harsh climate IMO.

Lots and lots of educated Egyptians live and work in Arabia.. I guess there is more opportunity in KSA than in Egypt.

 

[Barney2.0]

I am a Christian.. Able bodied men paid Jizya not women, children or the elderly.

You're Egyptian or of Egyptian heritage, aren't you?

In the old days Arab houses were built like thick walled towers so they operated like a chimney flue drawing cool air up thru the house and out the roof. They had funny stairs called camel stairs where the family donkey could haul fuel and food to the roof to be cooked. They also slept on the roof.

On the ground floor there was a tiny, shallow stone cooking area used mostly to prepare coffee for guests.

Really horribly clever way of coping with the harsh climate IMO.

Lots and lots of educated Egyptians live and work in Arabia.. I guess there is more opportunity in KSA than in Egypt.

The man was usually the head of the family so obviously he’d pay for his family, a wealthy widow that was not Muslim would still have to pay Jizyah in an Islamic state. Jizyah applied to everyone who could pay, those who could not pay had to either be forced into the military or in the case of women probably convert to Islam, any other option would be treason against the Islamic state and punishable by death. I’m not Egyptian or of Egyptian heritage, I’m of Levantine heritage, I was born and raised in Saudi and possess the nationality. What your describing are extremely low class farmers that lived in the early 1900s up to the 1950s, pretty much no one lives like that, even back then only the lower class peasants would live like that, to push that as the norm in the Arab world is quite deceptive, considering is wasn’t the norm even a long time ago.

 

[summerville]

The Israelites and Canaanites weren’t the same people, it also goes to tell me that you don’t believe the Biblical accounts of how the Israelites migrated into Canaan. There were no Arabs in Iraq or Mesopotamia at the time of the late Bronze Age.

Arabs began leaving the Arabian peninsula in waves in 10,000 BC because Arabia was becoming more arid. That's why you have Arabs in Palestine at the time of Abraham... and Marsh Arabs in southern Iraq. There are thousands of cuneiform tablets in Dilmun about the Epic myths of the Babylonians and business transactions that predate Genesis and Exodus. Plus, Sargon 2 settled 4 Arab tribes in Samaria in 700 BC
Dilmun, Sumerian name of an ancient independent kingdom that flourished c. 2000 bce, centred on Bahrain Island in the Persian Gulf. Dilmun is mentioned as a commercial centre in Sumerian economic texts of the late 4th millennium bce, when it was a transshipment point for goods between Sumer and the Indus Valley.
Dilmun | ancient kingdom, Persian Gulf | Britannica.com
www.britannica.com/place/Dilmun

The Hebrews were Canaanites.. They were just a landless tribe that embraced monotheism. They were either Canaanites from Urfa or they were Marsh Arabs from UR.

 

[Barney2.0]

Arabs began leaving the Arabian peninsula in waves in 10,000 BC because Arabia was becoming more arid. That's why you have Arabs in Palestine at the time of Abraham... and Marsh Arabs in southern Iraq. There are thousands of cuneiform tablets in Dilmun about the Epic myths of the Babylonians and business transactions that predate Genesis and Exodus. Plus, Sargon 2 settled 4 Arab tribes in Samaria in 700 BC
Dilmun, Sumerian name of an ancient independent kingdom that flourished c. 2000 bce, centred on Bahrain Island in the Persian Gulf. Dilmun is mentioned as a commercial centre in Sumerian economic texts of the late 4th millennium bce, when it was a transshipment point for goods between Sumer and the Indus Valley.
Dilmun | ancient kingdom, Persian Gulf | Britannica.com
www.britannica.com/place/Dilmun

The Hebrews were Canaanites.. They were just a landless tribe that embraced monotheism. They were either Canaanites from Urfa or they were Marsh Arabs from UR.

The reason you have Arabs in Palestine and in Iraq was mainly due to the Arab conquest in the 7th century, Arabs first started migrating to the Fertile Crescent in the 4th century and then continued moving through the Islamic conquest. Arabs didn’t exist in 10,000 BC, the Arabic language didn’t even exist back then. Dilmun was a Sumerian civilization not an Arab one. There were no Arabs in Palestine in the time of Abraham, Arabs were concentrated in what is now Yemen in southern Arabia back then. The Hebrews weren’t Canaanite, completely different peoples, the Hebrew language has its origins in the Sumerian and Babylonian language, not in the Canaanite Phoenician one, which goes to show that they’re totally unrelated, the Bible also confirms this fact which goes to show that your rejecting both scripture and actual history here. Also the Canaanites never inhabited Urfa which goes to show that your making things up as you go along.

 

[createdtoworship]

The reason you have Arabs in Palestine and in Iraq was mainly due to the Arab conquest in the 7th century, Arabs first started migrating to the Fertile Crescent in the 4th century and then continued moving through the Islamic conquest. Arabs didn’t exist in 10,000 BC, the Arabic language didn’t even exit back then. Dilmun was a Sumerian civilization not an Arab one. There were no Arabs in Palestine in the time of Abraham, Arabs were concentrated in what is now Yemen in southern Arabia back then. The Hebrews weren’t Canaanite, completely different peoples, the Hebrew language has its origins in the Sumerian and Babylonian language, not in the Canaanite Phoenician one, which goes to show that there totally unrelated, the Bible also confirms this fact which goes to show that your rejecting both scripture and actual history here. Also the Canaanites never inhabited Urfa which goes to show that your making things up as you go along.

I have heard israel was the first to occupy Jerusalem and to have stake there. I also heard that Palestine was originally named "philistine country." Have you heard of this before?

 

[createdtoworship]

The reason you have Arabs in Palestine and in Iraq was mainly due to the Arab conquest in the 7th century, Arabs first started migrating to the Fertile Crescent in the 4th century and then continued moving through the Islamic conquest. Arabs didn’t exist in 10,000 BC, the Arabic language didn’t even exit back then. Dilmun was a Sumerian civilization not an Arab one. There were no Arabs in Palestine in the time of Abraham, Arabs were concentrated in what is now Yemen in southern Arabia back then. The Hebrews weren’t Canaanite, completely different peoples, the Hebrew language has its origins in the Sumerian and Babylonian language, not in the Canaanite Phoenician one, which goes to show that there totally unrelated, the Bible also confirms this fact which goes to show that your rejecting both scripture and actual history here. Also the Canaanites never inhabited Urfa which goes to show that your making things up as you go along.

sir what do you think of this article:


"The Moon God of Muhammad's Tribe

Allah is not the generic Arabic word for God but the name of a particular god among many deities....Allah was the chief god among the approximately 360 idols in the aba in Mecca. In that pagan idol temple...there was a deity to suit each of the thousands of travelers passing through in the trade caravans.

Allah is a contraction of al-Ilah , the name of the moon god of the local Quraish, Muhammad's tribe, which they had worshiped with animal and human sacrifices for centuries before Islam was invented. Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad's earliest biographer, tells how Muhammad's grandfather was about to sacrifice one of his sons, Abdullah (who would later become the prophet Muhammad's father), when a sorceress persuaded him to sacrifice a camel instead. The name of Muhammad&'s father, Abdullah, is a contraction of Abd ul Allah , which means; servant of Allah. ; It is a historic fact that Allah was worshiped long before Muhammad was born. When Muhammad rejected polytheism, he took the name of his own tribe’s traditional deity, the moon god, as the designation for the one God of Islam, his allegedly new religion."

-Dave Hunt - Apologist, Cult Expert, author, and Lecturer.
In Defense of the Faith

 

[Andrewn]

Allah is a contraction of al-Ilah , the name of the moon god of the local Quraish, Muhammad's tribe, which they had worshiped with animal and human sacrifices for centuries before Islam was invented.

I found a short article with the following comments:

"As for the claim that the word Allah is a contraction of the word al-Ilah this is far from the truth as the word Allah means: God and the word al-Ilah means: THE God and they are very different words in Arabic and what non Arabic speakers do not understand is the so called rule of al al-ta3reef or the Arabic language definite article or al and it indeed changes the meaning of a word."

The word Allah and Syriac in the Qur'an :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

 

[dzheremi]

I found a short article with the following comments:

"As for the claim that the word Allah is a contraction of the word al-Ilah this is far from the truth as the word Allah means: God and the word al-Ilah means: THE God and they are very different words in Arabic and what non Arabic speakers do not understand is the so called rule of al al-ta3reef or the Arabic language definite article or al and it indeed changes the meaning of a word."

The word Allah and Syriac in the Qur'an :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

Well the problem is really in deriving Allah as a kind of contracted form, not in the fact that Allah and al-Ilah are different words. One can be descended from the other without them having to mean the same thing. Jeffery, in his Foreign Vocabulary of the Qur'an (2009 Gorgia's Press reprint, p. 66-67), gives evidence of its pre-Islamic origin outside of Arabic proper (evidence from Syriac, Mandaean, South Arabian, and other languages I can't type in), though there are other more modern sources that argue that it is in fact Arabic in its origin (e.g., here).

Personally, I'm agnostic since it wouldn't be the first time that a word was adapted from pagans for use by those of other religions, and that's all we're really talking about here.

 

[createdtoworship]

I found a short article with the following comments:

"As for the claim that the word Allah is a contraction of the word al-Ilah this is far from the truth as the word Allah means: God and the word al-Ilah means: THE God and they are very different words in Arabic and what non Arabic speakers do not understand is the so called rule of al al-ta3reef or the Arabic language definite article or al and it indeed changes the meaning of a word."

The word Allah and Syriac in the Qur'an :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

My article uses pre quran definitions of Allah and says that allah was worshipped by Muhammeds grandfather before the quran.

 

[createdtoworship]

sir what do you think of this article:


"The Moon God of Muhammad's Tribe

Allah is not the generic Arabic word for God but the name of a particular god among many deities....Allah was the chief god among the approximately 360 idols in the aba in Mecca. In that pagan idol temple...there was a deity to suit each of the thousands of travelers passing through in the trade caravans.

Allah is a contraction of al-Ilah , the name of the moon god of the local Quraish, Muhammad's tribe, which they had worshiped with animal and human sacrifices for centuries before Islam was invented. Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad's earliest biographer, tells how Muhammad's grandfather was about to sacrifice one of his sons, Abdullah (who would later become the prophet Muhammad's father), when a sorceress persuaded him to sacrifice a camel instead. The name of Muhammad&'s father, Abdullah, is a contraction of Abd ul Allah , which means; servant of Allah. ; It is a historic fact that Allah was worshiped long before Muhammad was born. When Muhammad rejected polytheism, he took the name of his own tribe’s traditional deity, the moon god, as the designation for the one God of Islam, his allegedly new religion."

-Dave Hunt - Apologist, Cult Expert, author, and Lecturer.
In Defense of the Faith

Here is more of the article. Dave hunt is a religion expert, now deceased....

Much of Islam is a carryover of primitive tribal laws and customs already in existence in Muhammad’s day. Even the holy month of Ramadan had long been established. Nor can Muslims deny that for centuries before Muhammad, Allah had been one of the many pagan deities (such as Baal or Molech) whom the God of the Bible, Jehovah, had forbidden His people, the Israelites, to worship....

Allah’s symbol was the crescent moon, which Muhammad also carried over into Islam. This symbol is still seen on mosques, minarets, shrines, and Arab flags. When he conquered Mecca...Muhammad smashed the idols in the Ka’aba, including Allah, and began preaching against idolatry. Nevertheless, the new self-proclaimed prophet kept the idol temple and retained the pagan ritual (long an integral part of the worship of the idols) of kissing the black stone....That stone, actually of “dark red material, oval in shape, some seven inches in diameter,” remains in its centuries-old position to this day and must still be kissed by Muslims on their required pilgrimage to Mecca....

Deceptive and Grievous Confusion

...Allah is no mere linguistic designation for God, as Dios in Spanish or Dieu in French. Allah is the name of an ancient pagan idol adopted as the god of Islam. If Allah were merely the generic Arabic word for God, then Muslims would not hesitate to use the word for God in each language into which the Qur’an has been translated. Instead, they insist that Allah must be used in every language....The God of Israel, too, has a name, YHWH, now pronounced Jehovah but anciently as Jahweh or Yahweh....God told Moses, “By my name YHWH was I not known to them” (Exodus:6:3
); and at the burning bush God explained the meaning of His name: “I AM THAT I AM” (Exodus:3:13
–14). YHWH means not just one who is, but the self-existent One who is in and of Himself.

Contrasting “Allah” and “Yahweh”

That Allah is not the God of the Bible is very clear—His very character and characteristics are the opposite of the biblical God’s. The Qur’an says that Allah is not a father, has no son..., and is not a triune being but a single and unknowable entity. Allah destroys rather than saves sinners, has compassion on only the righteous, does not deal in grace but only rewards good deeds, and has no just and righteous way to redeem the lost....That Allah should become a man to die for the sins of the world would be heresy to a Muslim....

In contrast, the God of the Bible is love, an impossibility for Allah. As a single entity, Allah is incomplete: He was lonely and could not love or fellowship until other entities came into existence. Not so with YHWH or Jehovah. YHWH is three Persons in One: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, complete in perfection and in need of no others to love and fellowship with....Only of this God could it be said that He is love in Himself.

 

[Andrewn]

My article uses pre quran definitions of Allah and says that allah was worshipped by Muhammeds grandfather before the quran.

Mar 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

When the Lord said this, He was quoting Psalm 22 in Aramaic. Eloi is a Greek transliteration of Aramaic Elahi, which means "my God." God in Aramaic is Elaha. In Syriac, which is a closely related dialect, God is Alaha. In turn, pre-Quranic Arabic-speaking Christians, Jews, and Hanifs referred to God as Allah. We should be calling God by the name Jesus used.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...onship_between_Arabic_Allah_and_Syriac_Allaha

What word did Jesus use for God in Aramaic?

Allah - Wikipedia

So, this is the origin of Allah in Arabic and it has everything to do with Christianity, not with Islam or paganism. But I'm sure a lot of people don't like this truth will keep on quoting Dave Hunt. Xenophobia?

 

[dzheremi]

Mar 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

When the Lord said this, He was quoting Psalm 22 in Aramaic. Eloi is a Greek transliteration of Aramaic Elahi, which means "my God." God in Aramaic is Elaha. In Syriac, which is a closely related dialect, God is Alaha. In turn, pre-Quranic Arabic-speaking Christians, Jews, and Hanifs referred to God as Allah. We should be calling God by the name Jesus used.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...onship_between_Arabic_Allah_and_Syriac_Allaha

What word did Jesus use for God in Aramaic?

Allah - Wikipedia

So, this is the origin of Allah in Arabic and it has everything to do with Christianity, not with Islam or paganism. But I'm sure a lot of people don't like this truth will keep on quoting Dave Hunt. Xenophobia?

I don't know who Dave Hunt is, and I'm pretty sure this wasn't meant for me anyway (since your Research Gate link leads to the same paper in Der Islam that I linked to in my post), but just so it's clear for the thread, I'm not suggesting a 'pagan' origin for Allah (I don't think words can have religions ), but saying that if the available evidence suggests -- as it seems to -- that it was used by both Christian and pagan (although I would have to follow the evidence I just presented recently in another thread that suggests that its use by different peoples in pre-Islamic Arabia could represent different periods of adoption for each, even if the result is that everyone would use the same word by the time of Muhammad), then this does not really mean anything different for the word than is meant by the similar adoption of words like Theos in Greek, Gott in German, Nouti in Coptic, etc. by Christians: the adoption of a preexisting word for God to mean God.

It seems that non-Muslim people who want to make Allah into 'the Muslim God' are (often unknowingly) operating according to distinctly Islamic theological arguments about the word, which is pretty odd when you consider what their opinion of Islam usually is. That's why I try to say things like "Muhammad's/Islam's recension of Allah/God" instead, because of course God is not the problem -- Islam is. (And, more obviously, I belong to an Arabic-speaking Church, so I can't sit here posting all kinds of negative stuff about the use of a word that we ourselves use approximately a zillion times per liturgy to address and/or talk about God.)

 

[createdtoworship]

Mar 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

When the Lord said this, He was quoting Psalm 22 in Aramaic. Eloi is a Greek transliteration of Aramaic Elahi, which means "my God." God in Aramaic is Elaha. In Syriac, which is a closely related dialect, God is Alaha. In turn, pre-Quranic Arabic-speaking Christians, Jews, and Hanifs referred to God as Allah. We should be calling God by the name Jesus used.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...onship_between_Arabic_Allah_and_Syriac_Allaha

What word did Jesus use for God in Aramaic?

Allah - Wikipedia

So, this is the origin of Allah in Arabic and it has everything to do with Christianity, not with Islam or paganism. But I'm sure a lot of people don't like this truth will keep on quoting Dave Hunt. Xenophobia?

I don't look at links as a refutation to actual quotes posted to this thread. However if you wish to continue this discussion and refute what was posted you must summarize your articles and not expect others to do your homework for you. This does two things, it shows you are interested in the debate, that you care about the subject matter and other people here, and secondly it helps you to formulate your arguments for later debates.