MSNBC Lagging In Cable News Wars

I Eat Pie

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Because they're not all leaches. A single mom working two jobs who can't afford health care is not a leach who should have to pay through the nose for basic medical care when she needs it.

This isn't about working mothers. this is about lazy bums who sit around all day and want handouts.

And some of these people drive fancy cars and wear fancy clothes too. Now tell me if this is fair for the rest of society or not. By the way, they're running, these are all able-bodied people, not disabled people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSGBrt5hSAg
 
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Skaloop

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This isn't about working mothers. this is about lazy bums who sit around all day and want handouts.

And how many people is that? Should hard-working people who honestly need socialized health care suffer because of the actions of a tiny minority of welfare recipients? Is that fair?

And some of these people drive fancy cars and wear fancy clothes too.

Again, how many? I don't deny it happens, but until you can show me that it's a significant problem it's not a strike against the program itself.

Now tell me if this is fair for the rest of society or not. By the way, they're running, these are all able-bodied people, not disabled people.

So physically-abled people should all be able to get jobs with no problem and would never have a need for welfare?

Anyway, just so I am clear, are you against welfare and socialized healthcare on the whole, or just against abuse or mis-use of the systems in place?
 
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Skaloop

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I am for the welfare and other types of government aid for people who honestly need it, but I'm against socialized healthcare 100%.

Even for people who honestly need it?
 
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Skaloop

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Like who?

Working people without health insurance.

Kids of people without health insurance.

People with health conditions that prevent them from working.

Working people with health insurance and health conditions that are not covered by said health insurance.

Unemployed people who require special treatment for a health condition.
 
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Skaloop

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No. It's immoral and it's stealing from hard working people.

And I find not providing necessary health care to the underprivileged and privileged alike to be immoral. It punishes hard working people.

My parents always had to pay because we grew up and had no insurance. And we grew up poor. If we can do it, so can they.

They can. But they shouldn't have to. Nobody should.
 
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I Eat Pie

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If they're hard working, where is their money? They should be able to afford it.

But smoking cigarettes or eating Mcdonalds all the time is a choice. Obesity is a choice. Unprotected sex and pregnancy/HIV is a choice. Cancer from smoking is a choice. Damaging your eyes from cellphone or computer use is a choice. Having X number of kids and demanding society pay for it is a choice. We should put the kids in a foster home and tie the tubes so they won't be a drain on society.

How long are we going to hold peoples' hands like they're children? We have a big debt and the entitlement spending has to stop. We've killed the goose that laid the golden egg. These people will never recover from entitlement mentality. They think the 'white man" owes them something, after slavery's been over for 100 years. It won't end. Once they strip you of your dignity and put you on their slave plantation(welfare), you won't get off.

Sorry for I don't want my country to turn into Cuba. And we have way more sick and obese people than Canada. Canada may be able to afford this, but we can't. It's gonna sink us further into debt if we have to start paying for all these people.

But I doubt comrade Obama cares.


For you it's a matter of "oh let's help everyone", when it's actually "we're not able to help these people". People have to lift themselves our of poverty. They can't keep relying on society to baby them. enough is enough.
 
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Skaloop

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If they're hard working, where is their money? They should be able to afford it.

Not every job that requires hard work pays well.

But smoking cigarettes or eating Mcdonalds all the time is a choice. Obesity is a choice. Unprotected sex and pregnancy/HIV is a choice. Cancer from smoking is a choice. Damaging your eyes from cellphone or computer use is a choice. Having X number of kids and demanding society pay for it is a choice. We should put the kids in a foster home and tie the tubes so they won't be a drain on society.

What about all the health issues that are not a choice, but affect all sorts of people, hardworking or lazy, rich or poor.

How long are we going to hold peoples' hands like they're children? We have a big debt and the entitlement spending has to stop. We've killed the goose that laid the golden egg. These people will never recover from entitlement mentality. They think the 'white man" owes them something, after slavery's been over for 100 years. It won't end. Once they strip you of your dignity and put you on their slave plantation(welfare), you won't get off.

Providing people who otherwise can't afford it with basic medical care is hardly holding their hands like they're children.

Sorry for I don't want my country to turn into Cuba. And we have way more sick and obese people than Canada. Canada may be able to afford this, but we can't. It's gonna sink us further into debt if we have to start paying for all these people.

One contributing factor to the number of sick people is that they can't necessarily get proper medical care to treat the sickness. And how would it turn you into Cuba? It would more likely turn you into Canada or the UK or Sweden. Even more likely, it wouldn't turn you into any other country, you'd still be America, just with readily accessible health care for all.

But I doubt comrade Obama cares.

Yes, because wanting the citizens of his country to be healthier means he doesn't care.

For you it's a matter of "oh let's help everyone", when it's actually "we're not able to help these people". People have to lift themselves our of poverty. They can't keep relying on society to baby them. enough is enough.

One way to help lift them out of poverty is to provide means for them to remain healthy and fit for work without having to consider the cost of getting medical care, as well as not leaving them with crushing medical bills when they do get sick (by bad choices or just bad luck).
 
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HannahT

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And what percentage of the American population falls into that category? Now consider a guy, he's married, got a couple of kids. One of whom is disabled. He works as a teacher. Then he finds out he has cancer. But he has no health insurance, and the treatments are expensive. What's the guy to do? He can't pay for treatment, so he's going to die. Leaving his family without support. So what does he do? He turns do dealing crack cocaine.

Yeah, that's the plot of Breaking Bad. In Canada, it would be a very different story. When he found out he had cancer, he'd get treatment for it. No desperate foray into trafficking illegal narcotics necessary.

Sadly, I had a close friend that had a story very close to what you are mentioning above. The government here in the USA did take care of her treatments, etc. There was no need to go and deal drugs to pay for it, or the support of her children in the meantime. She had no insurance.

She died because of the aggressive nature of it, and her children have social security to help raise them.

So here in the USA - along with Canada - you find out you have cancer, and you also get treatment. I'm not sure who told you any different.
 
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Skaloop

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Sadly, I had a close friend that had a story very close to what you are mentioning above. The government here in the USA did take care of her treatments, etc. There was no need to go and deal drugs to pay for it, or the support of her children in the meantime. She had no insurance.

She died because of the aggressive nature of it, and her children have social security to help raise them.

So here in the USA - along with Canada - you find out you have cancer, and you also get treatment. I'm not sure who told you any different.

If it's already happening, that people with cancer get government-funded treatment, what's the opposition to implementing socialized health care? The way you tell it, it's already implemented.
 
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Skaloop

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Our system isn't socialized. The program she was on is called, Medicaid. Its a government program for those that do no have the resources to pay - like your example.

Is there a cutoff regarding what is considered not having the resources to pay? Like, if someone makes more than a certain amount of money per year, they are not eligible for Medicaid?

Because some have been saying they don't want to pay for the lazy leaches, but those would be the sorts of people covered by Medicaid so they're already paying for the lazy leaches.
 
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HannahT

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There are requirements, and it doesn't always tie into income with that program. If they never applied for Medicaid? Chances are they go to the local emergency room, and they can't be refused care there. Then they basically don't pay the bill - if they are the irresponsible type. Most hospitals will do payment plans even if it is next to nothing. They may even show them how to apply for this program.

The problem is when they go to the emergency rooms? Those costs are much higher than doctor's offices for example. I mean you are speaking of care for 'emergencies'. Some communities have clinics that help low income families, but you may have to wait in long lines. If you have small children they have government programs like WIC (I think its called), and they give the immunizations, formula, and food items. I was on that program with one of my children when my husband was very ill, and not working. From what I remember that was income based.

There are programs out there, and YES they may at times be overcrowded. The location may not be to your liking. You may want more things that they can do for you. Its not perfect of course, and it never will be. lol but you don't have to deal drugs to pay for medical care on death's door!
 
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mandelduke

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That's what I thought when I first watched the show, which slightly undermined the premise. Unless he worked at a private school or something. Anyway, make him something other than a teacher, then, doing a job that doesn't provide health insurance. The point still stands.



Florida gave it a shot. Found that only 2.6% of welfare recipients tested positive for illegal substances, and that was primarily pot, not crack.

Welfare drug tests end up costing Florida $46,000
I would say about 75% of construction workers are on drugs but most of them can pass a drug test, it is called cheating.
 
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Skaloop

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I would say about 75% of construction workers are on drugs but most of them can pass a drug test, it is called cheating.

Pretty much impossible. That would be 8.5M people, constituting about 40% of the people that surveys show to have used illicit drugs in the past month. There's no way that the other 300M people in the US only account for 60% of drug use.

But you go ahead and keep making up numbers.
 
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Psalm 91

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A person can't get on Medicaid unless he makes less than $900 a month. He can be placed on "Spend-down" which means after he pays a certain amount each month, usually higher than he can afford, then Medicaid will pick up the rest. As Hannah said, if an uninsured person goes to the ER for treatment, they can't turn him down. He will be billed and will have to apply for Medicaid. If he doesn't qualify he can go to the finance office at the hospital and apply for help and present his proof of income, rent or mortgage and monthly bills. In some cases the hospital will eat the bill because they are given millions each year from the federal government for that purpose. I think the problem is when a patient has no insurance and owns his own home and then is hospitalized for an extended period of time. Someone with assets would be deemed financially able to pay his bill and would be responsible for it. So as expensive as insurance is, people with assets to protect need to have it or they'll lose their home, I think. Even seniors who have Medicare, it only pays 80% and the patient has to pay the other 20% unless he gets a supplemental plan. I think we have an overall, good health system, except for people who work for an employer who doesn't provide insurance.

My problem with socialized medicine or Obamacare is that doctors and nurses will be underpaid and overworked since there will be so many patients. (We are not Canada, remember.) There will be many more mistakes made. Cancer patients may die waiting for surgery. The medical teams will be overloaded and the quality of care will diminish. Many doctors are quitting their practices because they will get very little reimbursement from the gov't. They already don't get enough reimbursement from Medicaid and Medicare, but will get less from Obamacare. Treatments will be denied based on age or general state of health. Obese people may be denied care because it's riskier and more expensive. The handicapped may be denied. I think that Euthanasia will become common because the government will have to deny care. There just won't be enough money. And we still don't know everything they've slipped in that law.
 
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HannahT

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Many doctors are quitting their practices because they will get very little reimbursement from the gov't. They already don't get enough reimbursement from Medicaid and Medicare, but will get less from Obamacare. Treatments will be denied based on age or general state of health. Obese people may be denied care because it's riskier and more expensive. The handicapped may be denied. I think that Euthanasia will become common because the government will have to deny care. There just won't be enough money. And we still don't know everything they've slipped in that law.

Some of what you wrote - especially about the denying of care and Euthanasia instead of care? I don't see happening. People get up in arms over smaller things in comparison to someone's life, and the government cow towns to them now.

The cost of care is something they truly have yet to deal with. This is what is making people nervous. Doctor's have a choice as to how many medicare, medicaid patients they see. The government decides how much they will pay for the claims, and due to the cost of health care? The doctor's office/hospital/clinic can lose a huge chunk of change. So they only take so many patients, and that leaves the rest of the people to search for someone that will take the government assistance. That bottleneck is only going to get bigger once you add more people into the system, and you don't have enough medical places that will take them. They have yet to address this either.

Then you have the insurance for the medical personnel, and that costs a HUGE chunk. The government has decided they will not even address this at all. So you have this cost that could stay the same, or even go up. Yet, they want them to receive less for care of patients.

From what I have read the government seems to be addressing this with the concept of supply and demand. In other words, flood the market with new patients and the costs will go down. The problem with that is the factors that make the costs go up to begin with is NOT being addressed at all. This is another factor that makes people nervous.

The government also wants to encourage people to enter the Medicaid program by expanding the guidelines. That way more people will qualify. The system seems to be overloaded now, and the federal government has only offered to increase the amount of funds to help each state for only a certain amount of years. That leaves the state to figure out how to pay for it after that point. With state budgets hardly keeping up now? I can understand them being nervous about that. Increase in taxes to pay for it is never popular. I believe that is why so many states are opting out of that, and yet are being shamed for it.

It seems to me they are relying on young, healthy people that won't use the system - because they feel they won't need to - to pay for the rest of the people that do. That is a huge gamble, and sure I can see how that will help some...but will it be enough? The young are going to have to get insurance whether they like it or not, and no doubt many of those young people will be paying for areas where there is high unemployment...and can't pay. That could only cancel each other out.

They are now discovering hidden taxes in things now to pay for this program that was never brought up either. For example, if you bring a new medical device to market. They place a $1000 tax on it - and that's before you even pay for the item. Buying and selling Real Estate will now have heavier taxes. Heck they haven't even discovered all the ways they want revenue for this yet. They passed the law, but haven't stopped writing it yet. That leaves everyone in the dark, and you can't plan...since you have no idea what the costs will be.

Businesses with so many employees - even if they do give them insurance - will have to pay more to the feds to help pay for this program as well. Yet, they offer exceptions for certain industries - like McDonald's. Why? They had a hissie. So that leaves everyone else to pick up the tab. The costs are substantial, and I can understand why it scared them...but still. The country can't pay for it now, and yet you are skipping over certain industries from contributing for political reasons? Makes no sense at all.

The big unions at this point - that had been a huge supporter of this - are now finding out how this will actually HARM their members.

At this point we truly don't know how this is going to work for the nation, and what effect it will have on our current healthcare system. Sadly, you can only speculate. People are holding back from expanding, hiring, etc because they really don't know how much its going to cost. I mean you have certain items you have been told, but they aren't done writing all the details yet. lol they can't could change their mind, and change the details they already said would happen! Everyone is still so up in the air? Who knows what will happen.
 
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