(moved) Why I challenge some versions of Christianity

[Bluecheese]

I realise some people think I am a troll, but that is not my intention.

Here is my story.

I was born to parents who attended a Pentecostal church where Sunday after Sunday the 'you must be 'saved' or burn in hell' version of Christianity was preached! My paternal grandmother had beaten religion into her six kids, and from the age of two, that nasty, sadistic woman had taken great pleasure in describing the tortures of hell to me. I had awful nightmares throughout my childhood. As there no evidence at all to support such a nasty dogma, telling a child such a thing is abuse pure and simple!

In the end I did the 'saved' bit when I was eleven. Although I never had any experience that Jesus/the deity were out there somewhere, I was quite sincere in my belief for a while. However, by the time I was a teenager the doubts began to grow until they were too overwhelming to ignore, and I lost my faith by the time I was 19 and married. As I have mentioned on other threads the behaviour of many of the people claiming to be 'born again' and destined for heaven, left a lot to be desired and then some.

I have read the Bible from cover to cover many times since then and have never found anything in that book to change my mind.

The reason why I post on forums like this to state that whilst I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with moderate live and let live Christians, like our own three daughters who don't shove their beliefs down the throats of others, I have a big problem with those who make threats if people don't convert! This is abusive when aimed at children and the vulnerable and should be illegal.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

My plan is to say this to my children: "see that, there what the priest is doing to the bread? Now the bread is the body of Christ. See what the priest is doing to the wine? Now the wine is the blood of Christ."

I take a leaf from GEM Anscombe in this. She was a great Wittgensteinian philosopher and a Catholic.

 

[Bluecheese]

My plan is to say this to my children: "see that, there what the priest is doing to the bread? Now the bread is the body of Christ. See what the priest is doing to the wine? Now the wine is the blood of Christ."

I take a leaf from GEM Anscombe in this. She was a great Wittgensteinian philosopher and a Catholic.

I think that is horribly yucky concept!

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I think that is horribly yucky concept!

Maybe I quoted her wrong. This is the direct quote: "Such a child can be taught then by whispering to it such things as: 'Look! Look what the priest is doing ... He is saying Jesus' words that change the bread into Jesus' body. Now he's lifting it up. Look! Now bow your head and say 'My Lord and my God'" (1974:107).

 

[Aquila 04]

Even as a faithful Christian I think many churches are doing things wrong. When people ask what denomination I am I usually say Pentacostal/Assembly of God but I am leaning more toward Non-Denominational simply because I feel the denominational separation gives too many churches too much room to "tailor" the Bible to their own interests which is wrong to me.

I also agree with you in the fact that churches that preach Hell and damnation only turn more people away than attract new members.

The churches should be preaching the love of Christ first and foremost because that hope and joy at the prospect of Heaven is what makes people want to come to the house of the Lord in the first place. Hell needs to be taught too but it shouldn't be the first thing we throw at young Christians.

I hate to use car sales as an example but off the top of my head it's the first thing that comes to mind. When you walk into a dealership for a new car the salesman isn't going to bombard you with a vehicles negative attributes, they'd just scare you away. Instead they talk about they good to get you interested in the first place.

Preach and teach about God and Jesus' love first, then teach about the negatives once people are more experienced and comfortable with what they are learning.

 

[Man on Fire]

The Bible says to fear God with trembling. You should fear God. Fear of God is a good thing. Fear of God takes away your fear of man and other things. You put God at your back, and push forward. Perfect Love knows no fear. God is also Love. If you know God's Laws and keep his laws and commandment, love God, are working towards his Kingdom, then what do you have to fear?

God has a Staff that leads to Joy and Good things, and a Rod of Misery he may hit you with when you go off the right path. (Psalms 23) Spare the rod spoil the child. God disciplines you as a father disciplines his son. (Dueteronomy 8:5) Jesus chastise and rebukes those he loves. (Revelation 3:19) His anger is slow.

Reading the bible is by far, the dumbest reason for believing in christianity. It's as if I read Harry Potter, and used that as reason to believe Harry Potter existed. It's circular logic. Truth is established when multiple, more than one, sources are considered.

I don't think you, or anyone, who cares about the validity of their belief, should use the bible to justify belief, I think they should find some other reason, to justify and establish the bible as truth, in order to use it's claims as argument for truth.

I think questioning is good, to not question is to not care about the validity of the claims you claim to be valid, which is not a pathway to truth, in any case.

I am not saying this researching, questioning, and attempts at finding justification will not lead you to christianity, or any religion for that matter. I'm saying that anyone who cares about their belief, should find justification, find evidence outside of the book simply claiming truth without reasoning, to justify believing that the book should be considered true in the first place, to avoid intellectually dishonest arguments as reason for belief, to seriously consider both sides, before arriving at any conclusion of what they believe.

You seem to have the right idea.

That is absolute ignorance. Read the words of the Prophets. Prophet prophecies something, then it comes true. Why did God destroy Israel and Judah? They followed they prostituted themselves with foreign nations and foreign idols. (Ezekiel 23) What is happening today? People in Christian Nations are prostituting themselves with foreign idols, and foreign ideologies which are not of God. They are prostituting themselves with other nations by allowing Muslims, for example, to come to their countries and have their way. Time works in a circle. (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11) The Bible works. Most people are just blind or have been blinded to things of God.

 

[JackRT]

The Bible says to fear God with trembling. You should fear God. Fear of God is a good thing. Fear of God takes away your fear of man and other things. You put God at your back, and push forward. Perfect Love knows no fear. God is also Love. If you know God's Laws and keep his laws and commandment, love God, are working towards his Kingdom, then what do you have to fear?

 

[Merlin]

I realise some people think I am a troll, but that is not my intention.

Here is my story.

I was born to parents who attended a Pentecostal church where Sunday after Sunday the 'you must be 'saved' or burn in hell' version of Christianity was preached! My paternal grandmother had beaten religion into her six kids, and from the age of two, that nasty, sadistic woman had taken great pleasure in describing the tortures of hell to me. I had awful nightmares throughout my childhood. As there no evidence at all to support such a nasty dogma, telling a child such a thing is abuse pure and simple!

In the end I did the 'saved' bit when I was eleven. Although I never had any experience that Jesus/the deity were out there somewhere, I was quite sincere in my belief for a while. However, by the time I was a teenager the doubts began to grow until they were too overwhelming to ignore, and I lost my faith by the time I was 19 and married. As I have mentioned on other threads the behaviour of many of the people claiming to be 'born again' and destined for heaven, left a lot to be desired and then some.

I have read the Bible from cover to cover many times since then and have never found anything in that book to change my mind.

The reason why I post on forums like this to state that whilst I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with moderate live and let live Christians, like our own three daughters who don't shove their beliefs down the throats of others, I have a big problem with those who make threats if people don't convert! This is abusive when aimed at children and the vulnerable and should be illegal.

U must have a problem with Jesus.

It is Jesus himself who introduced the concept of burning in hell.
U will only find the concept in the words of Jesus.

 

[JackRT]

The Bible says to fear God with trembling. You should fear God. Fear of God is a good thing. Fear of God takes away your fear of man and other things. You put God at your back, and push forward. Perfect Love knows no fear. God is also Love. If you know God's Laws and keep his laws and commandment, love God, are working towards his Kingdom, then what do you have to fear?

On the face of it your words seem contradictory until you realize that the bible used the word fear not in the sense of being afraid or terror stricken but in the sense of "awe" or "reverence"

1 John 4: 18 --- There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

[blessedbethyname101]

To the OP, I am sorry to hear that you were "threatened" if you did not believe in Christianity. I think this brings about many problems with your perspective about Christianity. I understand that you would not want to believe in such a belief if all you heard that you would "burn in hell" if you were not saved. I think that Christianity as a religion should not be used to "force" people to believe that they would be saved from hell, rather to show people that Jesus is about God's love and is the way to God Himself.
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God a]">[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Jesus the Way to the Father

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”


6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know b]">[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”


8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”"

What Jesus meant by saying He is the way and the truth and the life is that He came to earth to spread God's love and to allow people to know that God is His father. God wants us to be with Him for eternity, not temporarily. This is the message of Jesus.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec]">[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”


22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”


23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.


25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.


28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

“Come now; let us leave.

This passage is about the Holy Spirit being with those who believe in Jesus and obey His teachings. It talks about love, peace, and continual presence of the Father in those who believe.

Jesus in His messages never "threatened" people. He encouraged his disciples to know that God exists and that He takes care of those who believe in Him.

I know you said you read the Bible many times and got nothing from it. May be you've read the Bible to the point where it seems like its re-hashed and repetitive with no new meaning. What I am trying to say is that I think you've gotten to the point where it has no meaning since you probably are just rehashing the phrases without really understanding the underlying meaning to the verses. Reading the Bible itself has no meaning if you can't understand the true meaning of what it is saying. This is the reason it helps to go to Bible study and to have someone else guide one through the Bible while explaining the verses. Reading the Bible by oneself is difficult and the true meaning may be lost with superficial readings of the verses.

In any case, the God that Jesus describes is about love for His believers. In the following verses of Matthew 7: He describes if you seek Him, you will find Him. He also asks that we do unto others as we do to ourselves.

Finally, even Jesus said that few would follow Him.
"Ask, Seek, Knock
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.


9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.


The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

God bless!

 

[Man on Fire]

On the face of it your words seem contradictory until you realize that the bible used the word fear not in the sense of being afraid or terror stricken but in the sense of "awe" or "reverence"

1 John 4: 18 --- There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

You are not wrong in saying Fear God with Awe and Reverence. There is also a fear of punishment. (Deuteronomy 8:5) (Revelations 3:19)

Jesus chastises and rebukes those he loves. He disciplines man like a father disciplines his son.

 

[Man on Fire]

Doesnt matter.

The Oddyssey is a collection of a story passed down for hundreds of years, almost thousands, and is thought thought may be written by multiple authors. Does that mean i can use it to justify the validity of the events explained within it?

The Odyssey doesn't have Prophets. The Odyssey isn't a working document that is accuratly describing what is happening right now in history.

 

[zippy2]

Luk 18:8
"........ Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

It is seeming not much. Not much.

 

[farout]

I realise some people think I am a troll, but that is not my intention.

Here is my story.

I was born to parents who attended a Pentecostal church where Sunday after Sunday the 'you must be 'saved' or burn in hell' version of Christianity was preached! My paternal grandmother had beaten religion into her six kids, and from the age of two, that nasty, sadistic woman had taken great pleasure in describing the tortures of hell to me. I had awful nightmares throughout my childhood. As there no evidence at all to support such a nasty dogma, telling a child such a thing is abuse pure and simple!

In the end I did the 'saved' bit when I was eleven. Although I never had any experience that Jesus/the deity were out there somewhere, I was quite sincere in my belief for a while. However, by the time I was a teenager the doubts began to grow until they were too overwhelming to ignore, and I lost my faith by the time I was 19 and married. As I have mentioned on other threads the behaviour of many of the people claiming to be 'born again' and destined for heaven, left a lot to be desired and then some.

I have read the Bible from cover to cover many times since then and have never found anything in that book to change my mind.

The reason why I post on forums like this to state that whilst I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with moderate live and let live Christians, like our own three daughters who don't shove their beliefs down the throats of others, I have a big problem with those who make threats if people don't convert! This is abusive when aimed at children and the vulnerable and should be illegal.

Clearly the people who raised you had a wrong view of God as punisher, not as the God who loves you. Don't make the same mistake in reverse and telling them nothing. Please go over 1 John. Then read John, the love of God is truth, Jesus Christ so Loves us He has paid the price for our sins, if we want him to. Focusing only on the fear has brought what you have experienced. Oh how sad those who so messed their life and then tried to give such a warped view of God. Now you have the opportunity to do so much better with your daughters.

 

[farout]

My plan is to say this to my children: "see that, there what the priest is doing to the bread? Now the bread is the body of Christ. See what the priest is doing to the wine? Now the wine is the blood of Christ."

I take a leaf from GEM Anscombe in this. She was a great Wittgensteinian philosopher and a Catholic.

What? This is clear to me as blacked out glasses.

 

[ScottA]

I realise some people think I am a troll, but that is not my intention.

Here is my story.

I was born to parents who attended a Pentecostal church where Sunday after Sunday the 'you must be 'saved' or burn in hell' version of Christianity was preached! My paternal grandmother had beaten religion into her six kids, and from the age of two, that nasty, sadistic woman had taken great pleasure in describing the tortures of hell to me. I had awful nightmares throughout my childhood. As there no evidence at all to support such a nasty dogma, telling a child such a thing is abuse pure and simple!

In the end I did the 'saved' bit when I was eleven. Although I never had any experience that Jesus/the deity were out there somewhere, I was quite sincere in my belief for a while. However, by the time I was a teenager the doubts began to grow until they were too overwhelming to ignore, and I lost my faith by the time I was 19 and married. As I have mentioned on other threads the behaviour of many of the people claiming to be 'born again' and destined for heaven, left a lot to be desired and then some.

I have read the Bible from cover to cover many times since then and have never found anything in that book to change my mind.

The reason why I post on forums like this to state that whilst I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with moderate live and let live Christians, like our own three daughters who don't shove their beliefs down the throats of others, I have a big problem with those who make threats if people don't convert! This is abusive when aimed at children and the vulnerable and should be illegal.

Unfortunately there is misunderstanding on both sides and not all are capable of a kind delivery of the news (which should be good).

The up-side of the news of God and Christ, is good news. The down-side, on the other hand, is a train wreck up ahead.

Delivering such a message to children is a challenge to say the least, even for such topics as, "Don't touch the hot stove." Most parents (and grandparents) struggle with it, and it is a real art to have done it well, that none of us can claim. Some are too protective and ruin a child's ability to deal with the real world. Some are too blunt and instill crippling fear that can change the course of a child's life from one of bravery, to one of cowardice.

Nevertheless, there is a train wreck up ahead.

 

[GraceDriven]

It is wise to remember that any group is made up of humans and humans are in a constant state of sin. No one is sinless, but Jesus. Christian's try to follow him because he is truth. We are all just people trying to follow him.

 

[GraceDriven]

Being in a religion is not thinking for themselves. Rather they are following a man-made path brought by various philosophy of men.

I believe that would be more of a Catholic thing. Just kidding.... Protestants read the bible and apply it to their lives as they feel it to be. Of course, you have millions of interpretations. So something is said by having leaders. It's having a relationship with God on a ongoing basis and reading the bible and asking God for guidance. I just started to study the bible a little bit. But almost every time I do, I see a truth.

 

[Tina W]

I realise some people think I am a troll, but that is not my intention.

Here is my story.

I was born to parents who attended a Pentecostal church where Sunday after Sunday the 'you must be 'saved' or burn in hell' version of Christianity was preached! My paternal grandmother had beaten religion into her six kids, and from the age of two, that nasty, sadistic woman had taken great pleasure in describing the tortures of hell to me. I had awful nightmares throughout my childhood. As there no evidence at all to support such a nasty dogma, telling a child such a thing is abuse pure and simple!

In the end I did the 'saved' bit when I was eleven. Although I never had any experience that Jesus/the deity were out there somewhere, I was quite sincere in my belief for a while. However, by the time I was a teenager the doubts began to grow until they were too overwhelming to ignore, and I lost my faith by the time I was 19 and married. As I have mentioned on other threads the behaviour of many of the people claiming to be 'born again' and destined for heaven, left a lot to be desired and then some.

I have read the Bible from cover to cover many times since then and have never found anything in that book to change my mind.

The reason why I post on forums like this to state that whilst I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with moderate live and let live Christians, like our own three daughters who don't shove their beliefs down the throats of others, I have a big problem with those who make threats if people don't convert! This is abusive when aimed at children and the vulnerable and should be illegal.

That's horrible and child abuse. When parents do that they end up making children hate religion since it's tied to the abuse they suffered as kids, and the parents will be judged for that. I would not even call what was done to you teaching about religion. That was just plain child abuse. I don't believe children should even be told about hell. They are not old enough to understand it and have not reached the age of accountability where they will even need to worry about it. They should be taught that Jesus loves them, and about angels watching over them etc. Religion should not even come up when discipling children in my opinion. When I would be put on punishment (my parents never spanked or whipped me) religion never came up and punishment never involved religion in any way like memorize this scripture as your punishment or anything like that, it was never anything like that. I was never forced to do anything involving Christianity as a kid. It was just a part of our life and I wanted to do it. Mixing religion with discipline especially whipping and hitting kids and threatening them with hell, those things put Christianity in a negative view to children and drive them away from God. If you want to spank them or discipline them fine, but leave God out of it.

 

[Dave-W]

They are not old enough to understand it and have not reached the age of accountability

There is no such thing as an "age of accountability."