[MOVED] What is more important dogma or evangelism in a church?

Amittai

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... how wrong is too wrong?

If one fully holds firmly to the Nicene and/or Apostle's Creed, how much does "proper understanding" of anything else really matter?

Prove it.

How important is personal growth ahead of adversity?
 
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RDKirk

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Kirk, truth isn't part of disputable matters.

Intensely telling people they've "been saved" can distort their outlook.

What is truth?

This is the third time I am coming to you. Every fact must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. - 2 Corinthians 18

The vast majority of doctrinal disputes among Christians are claimed "truths" that lack sufficient witness.
 
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Amittai

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The people that produced the video in 2011 and are still circulating it in CTW's church want to pit some christians against others by "mutually" whingeing about style. On the other hand, the first three or four reponders on the first page, together with Jesus, the Apostles, Holy Spirit, Prophets, Moses, et al, can speak to us all about everything.

The usage of a concept "saved" is often confusing and I heartily recommend we gravitate towards the meaning of Holy Scripture.

All Divine Service should feed everybody.

Voila all my many dearest children ;)
 
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createdtoworship

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- something will get lost including when you have the false doctrine of the false dichotomy you have, plus the omitting of huge areas of moral growth

- ask God since lockdown what He thinks of amplifiers Amos 5:24 "stop your din"

- like the Pharisees your establishment are scouring land & sea to make your recruits as shallow. A true God wouldn't be in a hurry for that

- you aren't comfortable with each other because you aren't comfortable with your own selves. This is not what you yourself individually planned for yourself, but your cynical superiors like to see it happening to you because they are denying it in themselves

- it is also the places that aren't called "dry" that are the form without the power

- they are misusing you for your apparent enthusiasm and don't respect your physical frailty (I am empathetic towards you because I also know the meaning in physical frailty)

- those of us in recovery know the meaning of step 11, to eschew excitement

- stop looking to those people for brownie points (people pleasing)

- there is a huge amount of background for you to catch up on, in all sections of CF

- slow down enough to give logic a better chance

- the people that crushed you are going to be asked why they were opposed to the maturing and interrelating of individuals in times of increasing adversity
why don't you quote the section you disagree with? That way I can try to understand more of your view. I don't mind talking to you about any of this, but you are all over the charts, some topics are not even remotely related to anything on this thread. But are you saying 'amplifiers' are sinful? I seen that one comment, but was unsure what you were saying.
 
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createdtoworship

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Ok should a church use "church discipline" regarding Christians living together before marriage? You have to balance being popular, and being the bad guy that actually believes the Bible. What's more important, that they have access to church, or that your church remain pure?
 
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timothyu

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Ok should a church use "church discipline" regarding Christians living together before marriage? You have to balance being popular, and being the bad guy that actually believes the Bible. What's more important, that they have access to church, or that your church remain pure?
Love all as self.
 
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createdtoworship

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Love all as self.
this is a hard question for me. I know that in the Bible it talks about excommunicating an believer for instance in the case of having sex with his mother in law. So I don't want to diminish a scripture ordained practice. However at what point to you go from a believer simply being addicted to say inappropriate contentography, and another believer living with his girlfriend? I think it all boils down to if someone is simply addicted to sin, or if they are practicing and proud of their sin. If they move in with their girlfriend they are no longer hiding their shame, they are openly professing that they can live in sin and still be christian. And I think that is dangerous. But say for someone who is addicted to inappropriate content, they have shame, and repent every time they do it but they cannot be free because of addiction. I think that person does not need excommunication, but grace. They are not practicing sin, they are simply falling short. One is proud of it, one is ashamed. Those are two entirely different believers. One is a tare among wheat and one is a seedling struggling for survival. One is dead the other has life.
 
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createdtoworship

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One dwells upon it. There are three players here. Is not this about you also? How should they attend to your problem?
well I don't have any sins that I practice. I used to be addicted to several sins of bondage but the Lord delivered me of all my afflictions for His name sake and for His glory. I still sin, but nothing like I did 5 or 10 years ago. Every year more breakthrough happens. The Lord takes the next sin of bondage and works on that one, then when that one is good, He goes to the next one. But the key is like you said, not dwelling or staying there. If we sin, we confess and repent. That's it. Jesus literally stands before the throne of Grace interceding on our behalf (Hebrews 7:25) and in Hebrews 4:16 it says let us approach the throne of grace boldly. But for the one practicing sin, he doesn't view it as evil, he is proud to be a inappropriate content user, he thinks it helps his marriage, he is proud to be homosexual, because doesn't God accept all? So you have again two different people here, myself one who comes boldly and says...."forgive me a sinner." And one who does not come to the throne of grace because he has done none wrong.
 
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createdtoworship

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In the seventies when He was moving and the church exploded, it was all hands on deck, reaching out together in unity, loving the lost and rejoicing together with the new brothers and sisters. Dogma took a back seat. Shoulder to shoulder with 'whoever', together in awe of what He was doing.
A documentary on the Jesus movement of the 70's
 
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Carl Emerson

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I found it somewhat disappointing, sensational presentations don't cut it for me. This was a moment of time when God breathed on the lost world wide. It was a movement you cant own. That is what crushed it - 'spiritual management,' pride, fear of losing control of congregations, when all Jesus wanted to do was touch the lost by whatever means possible. It could have been much more impacting but was closed down subtly by those who assumed positions of spiritual authority and had the agenda to grow an emerging church rather than allow the spirit to burst forth as He willed. Some leaders have repented publically of this 'over-bearance' but many have yet to see the opportunity that was lost as Jesus took hold of lives and would have danced like we never saw.
 
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createdtoworship

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I found it somewhat disappointing, sensational presentations don't cut it for me. This was a moment of time when God breathed on the lost world wide. It was a movement you cant own. That is what crushed it - 'spiritual management,' pride, fear of losing control of congregations, when all Jesus wanted to do was touch the lost by whatever means possible. It could have been much more impacting but was closed down subtly by those who assumed positions of spiritual authority and had the agenda to grow an emerging church rather than allow the spirit to burst forth as He willed. Some leaders have repented publically of this 'over-bearance' but many have yet to see the opportunity that was lost as Jesus took hold of lives and would have danced like we never saw.
Two different splits happened off of calvary chapel, first one was vinyard split, then later emerging church splits. So technically the calvary chapel was not emerging church type of churches. But at each of those splits, what would you say would be better, to focus on dogma, or evangelism? I know that sometimes I would have focussed on the dogma, other times the evangelism.
 
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Carl Emerson

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When our church exploded it was all hands on deck - Pastors of different denominations shoulder to shoulder as the outreach to the lost bought unity and that focus was the glue.
For a while, when He was doing fresh stuff folks didn't understand, things really moved. God was raising up the unlikely to minister, healings broke out, deliverance, love - folks gave houses! Then - what to do with the 'mentally unwell' they were declared off limits and ended up institutionalised when He was giving the power and gifts to set them free. This was a huge disappointment. The church was afraid of legal ramifications if stuff went wrong - and it did - suicides among the seekers is not a good look. So the controls came on - under the advice of some from the US featured in the movie no less. But the saddest part was not allowing home fellowships to become churches in their own right - tithes were needed to sustain mother church so the movement stalled. I was involved in the inner city so the work there was fruitful for a bit longer. It was a beautiful move but the old wineskin didn't manage to flex with the new life so the momentum faded. Dogma was never the issue - control was.
 
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createdtoworship

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When our church exploded it was all hands on deck - Pastors of different denominations shoulder to shoulder as the outreach to the lost bought unity and that focus was the glue.
For a while, when He was doing fresh stuff folks didn't understand, things really moved. God was raising up the unlikely to minister, healings broke out, deliverance, love - folks gave houses! Then - what to do with the 'mentally unwell' they were declared off limits and ended up institutionalised when He was giving the power and gifts to set them free. This was a huge disappointment. The church was afraid of legal ramifications if stuff went wrong - and it did - suicides among the seekers is not a good look. So the controls came on - under the advice of some from the US featured in the movie no less. But the saddest part was not allowing home fellowships to become churches in their own right - tithes were needed to sustain mother church so the movement stalled. I was involved in the inner city so the work there was fruitful for a bit longer. It was a beautiful move but the old wineskin didn't manage to flex with the new life so the momentum faded. Dogma was never the issue - control was.
well again it's all good in hindsite to see where being led by the spirit, collided with organized christianity. But ultimately it is human beings in charge. And if people were dying then that would be a red flag that something was not right. So some rules probably had to be put in, but rules always restrict by nature and you will have some good rules and some bad rules. Thanks for sharing your story. I pray that we can get to this again. People giving houses, people giving of their sustenance to help others.
 
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ewq1938

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