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[MOVED] What is more important dogma or evangelism in a church?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by createdtoworship, Apr 2, 2020.

  1. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    What good is right doctrine if nobody is listening to it?

    Let's presume the Philippian jailer remained a faithful member of the church of Philippi...but did he ever become any more saved than he was the first hour he had listened to Paul and Silas?
     
  2. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    No you don't but there is no need to stipulate as if it was a closed system. That ends up letting people think they are off the hook for not loving all including enemies as self, hence they feel free to participate in the division between man instead of between world of man and the Kingdom.
     
  3. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    I didn't stipulate it as though it were a closed system. I said, "Those who are saved unto heaven."

    Nobody really knows if that woman over there or that man over here is saved unto heaven.

    Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. -- Hebrews 11
     
  4. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't hurt to help them regardless, saved or not.
     
  5. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    What are you arguing about?
     
  6. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Evidently not the case at all.

    Proverbs 3:9-10
    Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.


    Proverbs 13:22
    A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.

    1 Timothy 5:8
    But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

    Proverbs 8:18
    Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.

    Luke 16:11
    If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?

    Luke 14:28
    For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

    Proverbs 21:20
    Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man's dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.

    Proverbs 13:11
    Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

    Deuteronomy 28:11
    And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.

    1 Samuel 2:7
    The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

    Proverbs 28:8
    Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

    Proverbs 21:5
    The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

    Mark 12:31
    The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

    James 2:8
    If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

    Romans 15:2
    Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

    Galatians 5:14
    For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
     
  7. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    I didn't see anything in all that either refuting or rebutting what I said.

    I guess you didn't understand what I said, and I can't figure out what you think I said.
     
  8. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Well, I do think that it's not an either-or situation. It's not as though dogma is wrong and evangelism is all that matters. Or the opposite. But if we had to choose, which would we go for? I saw the question as a matter of personal opinion and something of a brainteaser, not a do-or-die black vs. white matter here. ;)


    It may, but if you stipulate that Creeds are part of the question, you've already tilted towards the doctrine side of the controversy.
     
  9. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    I know if I had to choose I would choose proper doctrince
     
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    God is concerned about all these things listed below.

    17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

    Proverbs 3:9-10
    Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.

    Proverbs 13:22
    A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.

    1 Timothy 5:8
    But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

    Proverbs 8:18
    Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.

    Luke 16:11
    If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?

    Luke 14:28
    For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

    Proverbs 21:20
    Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man's dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.

    Proverbs 13:11
    Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

    Deuteronomy 28:11
    And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.

    1 Samuel 2:7
    The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

    Proverbs 28:8
    Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

    Proverbs 21:5
    The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

    Mark 12:31
    The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

    James 2:8
    If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

    Romans 15:2
    Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

    Galatians 5:14
    For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
     
  11. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    What is your point relative to what I said?
     
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Nothing you said is correct, in any way.
    Jesus talked about finances and money more than heaven.
    Others stressed the importance of loving our neighbors, especially the unsaved.

    In contrast to:
    The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  13. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    I said (paraphrasing Ecclesiastes):

    Jesus said:

    Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. Matthew 6

    Jesus and I (and Ecclesiastes) are not in dispute.

    As I pointed out, we don't know who will ultimately be saved, and I also quoted:

    Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. -- Hebrews 11

    So that would mean we have to show hospitality to everyone. I don't know why you don't seem to understand that.

    But if our treasure is to be laid up in heaven, and because it is true that nothing from this world will translate to heaven except those who are saved, then those who are ultimately saved will be the only treasure from this world into heaven.

    Yes, we show hospitality to all because that is our command, but the lasting treasure is only that which is in heaven. Everything else is vapor.
     
  14. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Nobody mentioned treasures. That wasn't the topic.
     
  15. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    duplicate
     
  16. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    whats really important 586.png
    Ok guys what is more important fighting over your 'mode' of baptism? Or getting people in to church first, then correcting and fine tuning it later. Dogma more important than evangelism? Some people believe you must baptize in the 'name of Jesus,' others believe you should baptize in the "name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit (trinity)" Other's believe you must be immersed or it don't work others believe it only works by sprinkling. Others believe in infant baptism, others believe salvation requires baptism, and yet others believe baptism is just an outward confession of faith, and is as such a church ordinance. So again do you fight with people on baptism modes? Or do you say....Hey brother, I know you disagree with my form of baptism, but hey you can still come hear the word of God today if you want, we have an awesome local christian band playing, lets break bread together and enjoy Christ in unity (can we just agree to disagree and unite in what we have in common?)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  17. charsan

    charsan Charismatic Episcopal Church

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    Correct doctrine above all. Everyone is invited to our Church and we will welcome them with open arms but in order to be a member they will be given a small book to explain what we believe and how we link to the real NT Church through Apostolic secession. I know because that is what happened before I was confirmed. Unlike some our beliefs are important not relative and who cares what you believe. That is the big difference between Traditional Churches and evangelicals, Traditional Christians welcome people warmly but we all understand to prevent heresy right doctrine is important but evangelicals while welcoming people warmly do not care abut correct orthodox belief and much heresy is to be found therein.
     
  18. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Not the circles I run in. If anything their doctrine is as perfect as you can get. But I think the fire of God is missing. They care more about doctrine than about reaching the lost.
     
  19. Amittai

    Amittai monitor evaluator

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    - something will get lost including when you have the false doctrine of the false dichotomy you have, plus the omitting of huge areas of moral growth

    - ask God since lockdown what He thinks of amplifiers Amos 5:24 "stop your din"

    - like the Pharisees your establishment are scouring land & sea to make your recruits as shallow. A true God wouldn't be in a hurry for that

    - you aren't comfortable with each other because you aren't comfortable with your own selves. This is not what you yourself individually planned for yourself, but your cynical superiors like to see it happening to you because they are denying it in themselves

    - it is also the places that aren't called "dry" that are the form without the power

    - they are misusing you for your apparent enthusiasm and don't respect your physical frailty (I am empathetic towards you because I also know the meaning in physical frailty)

    - those of us in recovery know the meaning of step 11, to eschew excitement

    - stop looking to those people for brownie points (people pleasing)

    - there is a huge amount of background for you to catch up on, in all sections of CF

    - slow down enough to give logic a better chance

    - the people that crushed you are going to be asked why they were opposed to the maturing and interrelating of individuals in times of increasing adversity
     
  20. Amittai

    Amittai monitor evaluator

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    - 28 years too late
    - and after that 5 years too late
    - and after that 2 years too late

    Did we just mislead ourselves? Or did the misleaders do any of the misleading?

    Charlatan attitude is to twist buyer beware. If we're interested enough to research His ways, it turns out God has an angle on false measures as well!
     
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