[MOVED] What is more important dogma or evangelism in a church?

[createdtoworship]

"Packing the people in" doesn't really matter if what they find when they get there isn't correct, right?

Well again I literally have not found another person on the internet or in person that believes every doctrine as I do. Does that mean that we should just not try to live in unity at all? Does that mean I give up talking about it, give up doing church, give up evangelism? Not at all it just means that we find the things we do agree on and unify over those areas. I think Furtick with the elevation church is not a great theologian and I am greatful for that to be honest. I see a youthful zeal there. But zeal should'nt be not according to knowledge. But to be honest the best seminaries I can refer people to, are not that good at all. What I respect more than anything is expositional teaching. I have 15,000 books on theology, I have every thing, I have calvin's and arminius's complete works, I have never read them. I have absolutely no clue where I stand on that issue. In fact my number one expositional commentary I use is from blue letter bible, it's free it's David Guzik's commentary on the whole Bible. I typically just use that one. If I run into a deep topic, I may search up some more commentaries. So it's useful for debate to have that many books. But not really for a minister or an evangelist or a typical leader in the church. If anything it over complicates things.

 

[timothyu]

If anything it over complicates things.

Probably why Jesus said to simply go and spread the Gospel of the Kingdom and follow the will of the Father which is love all as self. Quite simple and hardly in need of doctrinal oversight (or a religion for that matter).

 

[charsan]

"Packing the people in" doesn't really matter if what they find when they get there isn't correct, right?

Exactly. Right doctrine matters more than packing them in.

 

[createdtoworship]

Exactly. Right doctrine matters more than packing them in.

yes but making everyone like everyone else, isn't helping a dying world. You can have perfect 5 little theologians in your 'frozen chosen' group. Or you can reach out and pack them in, imperfect people, new christians, anti theological people, theological people, you name it.....just getting them there is the key. Once you catch a fish you can clean it later. I think christianity is worried about imperfection. People are worried about sharing the gospel with a transvestite, well shoot your shot, do it! Who cares what they think. If we don't do it, who will? Someone needs to stand in the gap between the elect and the sinners. I think that is what Jesus did. In fact the majority of my conversations are with atheists. I talk to those guys all day long. I like them. They need to see someone present Christ to them. Not a wishy washy Christ but a Christ of power that can overcome addiction and set them free from addiction and bondage.

 

[charsan]

yes but making everyone like everyone else, isn't helping a dying world. You can have perfect 5 little theologians in your 'frozen chosen' group. Or you can reach out and pack them in, imperfect people, new christians, anti theological people, theological people, you name it.....just getting them there is the key. Once you catch a fish you can clean it later.

We do not have a "frozen chosen" group. Hell packs people in and having proper doctrine is not a bad thing, a bad thing is just believing whatever nonsense one wants about Christ in the name of getting em in

 

[createdtoworship]

Probably why Jesus said to simply go and spread the Gospel of the Kingdom and follow the will of the Father which is love all as self. Quite simple and hardly in need of doctrinal oversight (or a religion for that matter).

I agree, the gospel of the kingdom is good. I just talked to a classical dispensationalist (which said that the words of Jesus were only to Jews, and that Christian doctrine as far as Bible is concerned didn't start until Pauls writtings). Man dispensationalism is getting so bad. Covenenat theology is not any better. But my point is this.....people come from all walks of life. The church should accept them all.

 

[createdtoworship]

We do not have a "frozen chosen" group. Hell packs people in and having proper doctrine is not a bad thing, a bad thing is just believing whatever nonsense one wants about Christ in the name of getting em in

I think that is exactly what we should be doing. Have a service that "gets them in." Make it so they think they are going to a concert, then at the end, they get a gospel shocker. Make them think they are going for a play, or a skit, and then at the end, they get the gospel preached to them. One church in our town did a skit called 'heavens gates and hell's flames." And regardless of which of the hundreds of churches everyone went to, they all got a ticket for that play. And went to it, it was a perfect opportunity to grab someone from work. What a horrible church to just say.....only the theologically perfect need apply. Well that would be an empty church indeed. Like I said, I have never met another person who has the same doctrine as me. I don't even know if I could actually verbalize all of my views on paper even. If I did, I am not even sure I would want it published. But you don't believe in the rapture, that's fine, we can break bread together, you don't believe in spiritual gifts for today, that is ok. I do, but I won't judge you if you don't. We can worship together in unity, you don't need to go to church up the street because we have a slight doctrinal disagreement. I think doctrinal arrogance has literally killed the church, and that is what furtick is talking about....."you want a doctrinal discussion....go to another church their are plenty for that. But if you want power and salvation, go here." Now I would not say what He said there. I don't agree with all of it, but the spirit of the message I agree with.

 

[charsan]

What killed the church is bad doctrine from those who think believe what you want is okay. God never says throughout Scriptures believe what you want, there are very very specific things to believe. Christianity is not relative

 

[createdtoworship]

What killed the church is bad doctrine from those who think believe what you want is okay. God never says throughout Scriptures believe what you want, there are very very specific things to believe. Christianity is not relative

every revival was always based on two things, repentance and unity. Doctrine comes in time. Again essential doctrines is important but most of what denominations fight over is not essential. If you simply had a second service where you taught through the Bible and you trained your leaders you would be ok. Accept everyone, don't limit your church only to the doctrinally perfect. Like I said between me and you, we both have debated theology for years I am 99% sure we disagree on something. But just because we disagree why do we divide? I think churches make two errors, they either don't focus on doctrine at all, like furtick does... or they focus on doctrine too much and they close themselves off to everyone around them. So then furticks churches grow and your church dies off. My point is this, we can balance the two. Have first main service that does what furticks church does, but then have a doctrinal backbone behind it to support it. Will you have disunity at the level of where the doctrine hits the passion? Yes I think so. But still train your leaders not to divide over said doctrinal conflict. If someone does not want to believe said doctrine, so be it. We are all different. But essential doctrines, diety of Christ, trinity, existence of hell, salvation by faith not works, all that you have to have unity over. But again just train your main leaders in this doctrine, they can train their circles of influence, but don't over complicate your morning service with doctrine only. Have a christian comedian come over. Screen his illustrations for purity of course. But that would be good. Many churches are like....."oh you can't laugh about christian cuss words, christian cuss words are bad so they won't hire Tim hawkins to come to church and do a think on christian cuss words." I don't like using christian cuss words but I watched the video over and over, that draws a crowd.....bring it. Who cares if it's not perfect doctrine. That is what I mean.

 

[charsan]

very revival was always based on two things, repentance and unity. Doctrine comes in time.

That is false, maybe evangelical revivals where anything goes but not real ones. Right doctrine matters always, period.

 

[createdtoworship]

That is false, maybe evangelical revivals where anything goes but not real ones. Right doctrine matters always, period.

It wasn't the non essentials that was important it was repentance, holiness, and unity. Not dividing over non essentials, but realizing we can unify despite our differences. I could not fathom a revival of people dividing over petty church differences, that would stifle any revival.

 

[charsan]

It wasn't the non essentials that was important it was repentance, holiness, and unity. Not dividing over non essentials, but realizing we can unify despite our differences. I could not fathom a revival of people dividing over petty church differences, that would stifle any revival.

All doctrine is important. It is apparent that we see Christian two different ways. I am a Traditional Christian and correct doctrine is very important like the Real Presence, Proper Baptism, the Trinity, etc there is really no such thing as non essential for me. I know as an evangelical type everything is up in the air for you so we can not come together on that.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I'll take what's behind Door #3, please. Worship.

 

[createdtoworship]

All doctrine is important. It is apparent that we see Christian two different ways. I am a Traditional Christian and correct doctrine is very important like the Real Presence, Proper Baptism, the Trinity, etc there is really no such thing as non essential for me. I know as an evangelical type everything is up in the air for you so we can not come together on that.

well let me ask you this.....was the resurrection a cardinal doctrine of salvation? Most say yes. However the disciples did not believe in the resurrection till after the fact, so according to that view the disciples were not saved until after ward. John the baptist for example, was never saved. So you see my point. Something are important. But there is time to learn proper doctrine. And I am saying a church should have light doctrine, heavy on talented musical worship, concerts, plays, performances, then for those who wish to have more doctrine, avoid the first service and go to an evening or mid week in depth service where they teach through the Bible verse by verse every 7 years. That way you have both. Most churches have one or the other, either you have a popular church service that rarely says accurate theology or you have a frozen chosen church that has perfect doctrine but can care less about reaching out to those who are different. So we need a balance. Does that make sense? I believe the resurrection is a cardinal value, but for instance I think someone may not believe in it, but they don't necessarily deny it. They just have not been told it yet or hadn't had time to see the empty garden tomb in Israel, or the shroud of turin. So I think that while yes some doctrines like abortion, homosexuality and other hot topics are misunderstood by the average christian and should be explained in the in depth services not the main service. Unless you can do it in a clear and precise manner, not being judgmental. Same with the commandments, often time a church will preach hell fire. And that is good, and preach the commands, but they portray God as just this harsh ruler, not a heavenly father that loves them and actually likes them as a person.

 

[RDKirk]

As I said. Making an impact on the lives of others is the only things that works. Broadcasting does nothing. Listening works.

I'm at the age where Ecclesiastes makes inherent sense.

The Hebrew word usually translated as "vanity" or "meaningless" literally means "smoke" or "vapor." I like the literal meaning better.

All of this is just smoke and vapor. It looks real, but when you reach out for it, you can never grasp it...it floats out of reach and changes shape.

Nothing we achieve in this world will translate into heaven. Nobody will care if you were the wealthiest man of your time, because your wealth will be frittered away by your heirs. Nobody will care if you build the tallest building of your time, because someone else will build one taller and yours will be torn down.

There is only one thing that translates into heaven: Your actions toward those who are saved unto heaven. Someone who can say in heaven, "I remember you...you told me about Jesus." Or "I remember you...you supported my mission." Or even "I remember you...you gave me a sandwich one day when I had nothing to eat."

That is the wealth of heaven.

 

[timothyu]

Your actions toward those who are saved unto heaven.

Jesus said enemy also.

 

[RDKirk]

When we read in Acts about the Roman soldiers who were saved, we can begin to understand how slim the saving Gospel actually is.

Cornelius already knew about the life and ministry of Jesus. What he didn't know was that Jesus had been resurrected, until Peter told him. Cornelius became filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, before Peter even finished his sermon...the Holy Spirit didn't need for Cornelius to hear the rest of what Peter had to say.

The Philippian jailer only needed to hear a few Psalms, then maybe an hour of more information. That was all necessary.

Most of the doctrine cobbled together by theologians whose job it is to create theology isn't necessary for salvation. Nice to have information, fun facts, interesting dialog. But not necessary.

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. -- Romans 14

There are some matters that are indisputable. Those are encapsulated in the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds.

Pretty much everything else is a "disputable matter." They can be disputed literally until the Kingdom comes...but we should not quarrel over them.

 

[RDKirk]

Jesus said enemy also.

You don't know that the person you consider your enemy won't end up in heaven.

 

[RDKirk]

"Packing the people in" doesn't really matter if what they find when they get there isn't correct, right?

I dunno. Who is absolutely right, and how wrong is too wrong?

If one fully holds firmly to the Nicene and/or Apostle's Creed, how much does "proper understanding" of anything else really matter?

Prove it.

 

[timothyu]

Most of the doctrine cobbled together by theologians whose job it is to create theology isn't necessary for salvation

Necessary to maintain their religion which becomes more important to them than what it was based on. In the end the blind teach the blind to defend the religion and doctrines and ignore the Kingdom and two commandments.