[MOVED] What is more important dogma or evangelism in a church?

[com7fy8]

I am not saying don't talk about hot topics, but maybe not in the main service, where you can expect non christians there.

In God's word, He directly confronts a wrong thing but also gives a strong encouragement to all which is better, instead. So, a preacher can point out what is wrong and right away say what is God's will, instead.

I believe we should teach the ten commands, but not before they understand why we have commands.

You can do both, together. Give the understanding, first, or after . . . in the same message.

Why is it bad to have sex before marriage. Because a higher rate of STD and teen pregnancy, and also a higher divorce rate. That is why it's a sin. It's not a sin because it violates a law. It's a sin because it's bad for you. So most preachers of the 10 commands don't do that. They don't explain why it's wrong, they just say......God says it therefore I believe it.

I would say wrong sex is a sin because it violates God's way, plus it can have bad practical consequences. If you say it's bad because of STD's, there are ones who know they can stay clear of that; so it won't mean anything to them. Have fun trying to prove, even from the Bible, that it is wrong for a teen to be pregnant > how old was Mary the mother of Jesus when she got pregnant? And a higher rate of divorce does not disprove premarital sex. Also > if divorce means something is wrong > well, more than half of American marriages end in divorce; so you could say being an American is a reason not to get married!

And if you only preach consequences as a reason not to do something, by the way > you can see how well this is keeping young people from smoking.

The reason needs to be God and all He desires to share with us. A lot of people are ruining their health even right while they have medical proof of how they are doing things wrong. And they do not change.

But the reason they are wrong is not only because they are losing their lives.

 

[createdtoworship]

I would say wrong sex is a sin because it violates God's way, plus it can have bad practical consequences. If you say it's bad because of STD's, there are ones who know they can stay clear of that; so it won't mean anything to them.

having multiple partners increases the chance of STD's for certain. Safe sex is not always safe. I see people all the time that have surprise pregnancies while using safe sex. If those little tad poles can get through, so can an STD.

Have fun trying to prove, even from the Bible, that it is wrong for a teen to be pregnant > how old was Mary the mother of Jesus when she got pregnant?

try to find verses that support a teen getting pregnant before graduating highschool, and sacrificing her diploma for being a single mom on minimum wage.

And a higher rate of divorce does not disprove premarital sex. Also > if divorce means something is wrong > well, more than half of American marriages end in divorce; so you could say being an American is a reason not to get married!

so you admit there is a high rate of divorce, so that means that everything that can help one stay successfully married needs to be tossed out the window because the system doesn't work? Sorry the logic doesn't follow. I think if marriages are failing, we need to all the more do whatever it takes to fight for marriage and do it the proper way. THAT is being biblical.

 

[timothyu]

I think if marriages are failing, we need to all the more do whatever it takes to fight for marriage and do it the proper way. THAT is being biblical.

Christians divorcing save for adultery, let alone the rest, are merely showing that they are not abiding by God's commandment to love all as self, if they can't even keep themselves together. Perhaps it is by choice to ignore God's will, but more likely a failure of the church to teach the differences between man's and God's ways and how God's way counteracts the damages man's will causes.

 

[com7fy8]

Safe sex is not always safe.

Practically, this is true. And spiritually no sin is safe.

Even if someone could have safe sex, it still would be wrong if it is immoral.

So, the consequences are not the primary measuring stick.

Because if you do something in lust, it is not in love.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

"not in passion of lust" > in 1 Thessalonians 4:5.

So, even in marriage which is of course lawful, still lust is wrong. People need to be told the difference between love versus lust. Because marital sharing can be done with love, or it can be in lust. So, how much has your preaching been teaching about this? What have they told you?

 

[timothyu]

Because if you do something in lust, it is not in love.

All species act out of lust. We just happen to have a dual nature and without loving all as self which means no gain at the expense of another (among other things) we will continue to live by our animal nature.

 

[createdtoworship]

Christians divorcing save for adultery, let alone the rest, are merely showing that they are not abiding by God's commandment to love all as self, if they can't even keep themselves together. Perhaps it is by choice to ignore God's will, but more likely a failure of the church to teach the differences between man's and God's ways and how God's way counteracts the damages man's will causes.

I agree. I think overall lack of understanding of relationships, I am dealing with several threads right now how inappropriate contentography is ruining relationships, there are hosts of factors. Even in a happy marriage, one should strive to understand their mate wisely. I like mark grungars, 'tale of two brains, full version 4 and half hour long one). I sent that one out. Also there are a few threads on what dating entails, and what are the boundaries, 'how far is too far.' all of that. Churches don't have a lot to say about marriage, inappropriate contentography, or dating even. And that is sad. Again I think a church being focussed on outreach, will find answers to the problem that half of christians end in divorce. I know that having a problem with inappropriate contentography makes it twice as likely to end in divorce, and after the divorce if one still struggles they are half as likely to break up with their next relationship. So again this topic is big, and we can't address it all here and now. But I think that a church should simply focus on the not saved. Teach baby steps, and minor doctrine. Not confusing stuff, like calvinism, arminianism, free will or the hosts of deep topics. Just teach them about grace, holiness, the importance of following God, but not to be a rule follower, but that following the commands is actually healthier and wiser to do, it's just pure wisdom. It's smart to follow the Bible.

 

[createdtoworship]

Practically, this is true. And spiritually no sin is safe.

Even if someone could have safe sex, it still would be wrong if it is immoral.

So, the consequences are not the primary measuring stick.

Because if you do something in lust, it is not in love.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

"not in passion of lust" > in 1 Thessalonians 4:5.

So, even in marriage which is of course lawful, still lust is wrong. People need to be told the difference between love versus lust. Because marital sharing can be done with love, or it can be in lust. So, how much has your preaching been teaching about this? What have they told you?

Thank you for posting the verses, however I don't think lust itself in marriage is wrong. I think in the process of having sex, if you don't have lust, you won't be aroused and thus you won't be able to perform the act. So lust has it's place. But technically lust is lusting for something you don't have. In marriage one can argue that lust is technically not lust, because you and your mate are one flesh. You have each other.

 

[timothyu]

It's smart to follow the Bible.

And the Bible shows over and over that focusing on self rather than on others leads to all sorts of ruin.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Lust does not magically turn into love when you marry.

The goal is to be motivated by Agape in all aspects of relating to others. This includes ones spouse in every aspect of marriage.

 

[createdtoworship]

Lust does not magically turn into love when you marry.

The goal is to be motivated by Agape in all aspects of relating to others. This includes ones spouse in every aspect of marriage.

Like I said I don't think you can lust after your spouse. Lusting is technically wanting something you don't have. In marriage you have your spouse. And the Bible says if you desire to have sex with your spouse, that you are to submit to one another, lest you be tempted. So to me that endorses anything we might define as lust, as being sanctified. Again, if you are not attracted to your mate that is quite another problem. I believe that is important for a variety of reasons. But If what you mean is that a new marriage struggles to find agape love for one's spouse, that is probably true of any new relationship. Agape love involves learning what a person loves and likes and that involves wisdom.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Like I said I don't think you can lust after your spouse. Lusting is technically wanting something you don't have. In marriage you have your spouse. And the Bible says if you desire to have sex with your spouse, that you are to submit to one another, lest you be tempted. So to me that endorses anything we might define as lust, as being sanctified. Again, if you are not attracted to your mate that is quite another problem. I believe that is important for a variety of reasons. But If what you mean is that a new marriage struggles to find agape love for one's spouse, that is probably true of any new relationship. Agape love involves learning what a person loves and likes and that involves wisdom.

Cant say I agree with this.

The flesh motive of lust should be attended to before marriage.

Bringing lust into marriage can result in abuse.

1 Jn. 2:16
For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and
the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world

Lust does not respect.

Bringing this into marriage is a recipe for disaster.

 

[createdtoworship]

Cant say I agree with this.

The flesh motive of lust should be attended to before marriage.

Bringing lust into marriage can result in abuse.

1 Jn. 2:16
For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and
the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world

Lust does not respect.

Bringing this into marriage is a recipe for disaster.

well I agree to disagree on this topic. I would think God to be very evil indeed if he created sex, then said....ok no go have it with your spouse, but don't enjoy it. I don't want to see a smile at all. That would be cruel indeed. But all of this is not really the topic of this thread. So I will wait for more posts on the topic of outreach and witnessing in the church services.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You clearly dont understand Agape...

Maybe you might consider the the Greek word Eros is not mentioned once in the NT.

 

[createdtoworship]

You clearly dont understand Agape...

Maybe you might consider the the Greek word Eros is not mentioned once in the NT.

Sir in marriage you have both. I would hate to have only agape love (which is self sacrificial love), and lack Eros love, meaning I love her but the thought of consuming the marriage makes me throw up a little. That would be hell, not heaven.

 

[charsan]

I was watching a video on youtube and this topic came up, I wanted to know what you guys think. So who are you with, furtick or chandler? Does church need to be about dogma, fighting over calvinism. Or about evangelism, or about a mixture of both evangelism and deep theology? Or should the church avoid dogma such as calvinism, reformed dogma, arminianism and simply just teach the Bible. And how much of the scripture should be taught, for example how deep into scripture should you get. And should you replace deep sermons with more evangelical ones?

If you are confused, check this video:

I think dogma, though I am totally against calvinism.

 

[Albion]

I am not talking about essential doctrines, I am talking about calvinism, reformed doctrine, fighting over spiritual gifts or end times studies. .

That would depend on whether the person is a Calvinist or not, right? They're not the only ones, but to them, correct doctrine matters.

To a number of denominations that are of a different bent, however, it's "how we ought to live," and doctrines such as were referred to above aren't very interesting.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sir in marriage you have both. I would hate to have only agape love (which is self sacrificial love), and lack Eros love, meaning I love her but the thought of consuming the marriage makes me throw up a little. That would be hell, not heaven.

I totally disagree, all out motive should be from His love.

Read 1 Cor 13 and tell me that Agape should not be at the heart of every aspect of marriage.

 

[createdtoworship]

I totally disagree, all out motive should be from His love.

Read 1 Cor 13 and tell me that Agape should not be at the heart of every aspect of marriage.

sir you if you are defining agape, as not being physically attracted (eros) with our spouse, I would disagree outright. Agape should be the root love of our marriage, of course. And as we grow old together more eros is transferred to agape I believe. But that is not to say that romance is not important and that we should not have an eros type of love for our spouse as well.

 

[createdtoworship]

I think dogma, though I am totally against calvinism.

That would depend on whether the person is a Calvinist or not, right? They're not the only ones, but to them, correct doctrine matters.

To a number of denominations that are of a different bent, however, it's "how we ought to live," and doctrines such as were referred to above aren't very interesting.

Dogma is important. But watch the video above. One of the most successful church plants is something called elevation churches, and they have a very successful worship ministry. In fact sixty percent of youth currently interviewed like elevation worship over hillsong worship. So that is pretty amazing the work of God through that ministry. In the video above it said that rick warren invited Furtick to his home. I don't know anyone who has had that privilege. Rick warren has his own doctrinal issues. I am very aware of doctrinal error, as I will say below it's important to still recognize where the Lord is working, and glean from them what you can, and then spit out the bones, the bad doctrine. If there are things we can learn from how they do church. For instance investing into a killer worship ministry, like elevation worship. I would be interested in how they put together their worship ministry from the roots. But that is just one aspect of it. Many of their church sanctuaries are set up like concert halls. Lots of lights, fog, you name it. I am not saying all of that but at least some of that stuff. I think that many pastors don't want to have what is called a "dog and pony show.' You know make a production just to get people into church. But I wonder, why not have a dog and pony show? (my pastor has specifically mentioned not doing a dog and pony show to attract the masses). But I am saying that this methodology may not be 100 percent accurate. I think making productions making plays, doing concerts, maybe having a dance team or a team that does skits. All that stuff is very needed. I think the main service can have that type of stuff. Then a second or third service can have a more in depth approach, or even have a bible college to really go deep and maybe learn to prepare sermons. But I noticed that many 'doctrinally correct' churches like to expose false teachers. Joyce meyers and benny hinn and the host of them. However recently I don't know if you know they both renounced prosperity teaching. I am not sure if it stuck long term, but I think it's important to see what God is blessing in someone's life and just toss out the junk. What I mean is that no one will teach perfect doctrine. I don't think I have met another person that literally views scripture the same way I do. That doesn't make me right or them right. It just means we are different. Yes with some things we should be legalistic about. Jesus deity, the resurrection, Jesus miracles, The gospel of Jesus. But literally every other doctrine is not essential. Just because someone doesn't believe in the rapture, or doesn't believe tongues are for today, does not mean that God can't use them in a mighty way. See what God is doing in their life, take the good. And toss out the bones. When you eat a chicken leg, you don't eat the bone. You spit it out. That is what you have to do with teaching. Does this mean you can be deceived? Yes, Yes it does. However I think that every church should teach through the Bible in seven years. All the way through it. But not during the main service. But this one task will help you raise a core group of people who are familiar with the word. Our church has done this for the last thirty years. I have gone through the scriptures twice with my pastor. And they should recommend that all leaders of the church have a devotion where they also read through the Bible in a year. I think those two things, will raise a core group of leaders that is well versed. However doing that alone is not enough. As I have said before, churches get old. In our church they are mainly older people, there is a small group of teenagers and young adults, but the rest are older. Middle to upper class. And I can't help but think something is missing. Our sanctuary which used to be three quarters or more full, is a quarter full on evening service and half full during mornings. We have lost loads of people. And many will just think...oh well that is what happens. But I think we can do something about it. I think not only having a topical message, but maybe having local bands play for worship, or even well know bands play worship, or solo artists play a half hour worship in the main service, will draw people in. Use the worship band for evening service and for the small groups. That is just one idea, there are many ideas. But here is a documentary on elevation church....it's 8 years old and does not reflect their current church vision but it's sufficient.

 

[Albion]

Dogma is important. But watch the video above. One of the most successful church plants is something called elevation churches, and they have a very successful worship ministry. In fact sixty percent of youth currently interviewed like elevation worship over hillsong worship.

"Packing the people in" doesn't really matter if what they find when they get there isn't correct, right?