[MOVED] What is more important dogma or evangelism in a church?

[Carl Emerson]

yes I loved the Jesus movement. It's still happening now, it's just not as widespread as it was in the 70's. The pastors in the OP are interesting. See because many of them are from contradicting doctrinal perspectives, and you can tell by the debate. But my point is that chandler used to be more apostolic, caring more about evangelism than doctrine, but slowly doctrinal pride creeps in. I am not saying don't have doctrinal classes and focus on correctness, but don't speak of divisive doctrine from the pulpit. Mark Driscoll has his own move of the Holy Spirit starting the acts 29 network of churches. It always starts out with a move of the spirit, then spiritual pride comes in, and with it doctrinal arrogance. Now mark is out of the loop currently, just speaking occasionally. I don't see Furtick as getting proud yet, I like Him. I don't agree with everything that He says, but I like that He is focused on evangelism. But at some point people will come in and say.....he you can't just let all these people in here, you need to start making them remove their tattoos and piercings, and taking the dye out of their hair and make them look like 'proper christians.' You will see that revival slowly dwindle out after that. Because in accepting people in their rawness, you are revealing the Heart of Jesus. The first time I encountered my church everyone had long hair and the guy that invited me had piercings all over and purple hair. If that same guy stepped into my church today, people would feel uncomfortable around him. We have changed. Our church has less young people, and more of the older generation. I can tell our revival is done, but for some, it's not done.

Lovely post thanks...

 

[redleghunter]

as I said our church used to be very accepting of different doctrine, oh you don't believe the rapture, sure, come sit next to me in church.....oh you dont' believe gifts of the spirit are for today, that's ok you can break bread with me in church. But now as our church got a new building and got thousands of people, people have started to leave. Do we have doctrine? Yes! probably the most perfect doctrine I have ever seen, but they lost something in the process. They lost the love and grace to dwell with other types of christians. We even have the reputation as being prideful and arrogant in the city we live in. Who cares if you have doctrine, if you don't have love.....your a sounding brass. 1 corinthians 13:1 Now I am not saying don't have doctrine. I among all believe in the importance of doctrine. But I don't think it should be the MAIN SERVICE on sunday to be your most deep theological discussion. I think maybe have two services and do an in depth evening service to talk about deeper things, maybe go through the Bible book by book. Then morning service be about unifying the city under God. Coming together as one body. Buy that extra screen, buy the bigger amplifyer. Get your drummer a new drum set. Focus on outreach, don't be comfortable with who is there now, seek out the lost.

You really did not address what I asked.

 

[createdtoworship]

You really did not address what I asked.

You were talking soteriology yes? I think that is what you are referring to. The point is this.....that the church should be more focused on outreach. Most churches have the basics of what the gospel is, already taken care of. God is not dumb. He won't make a bride, then allow the bride to become totally and utterly deceived. I used to think that. I used to think that my recipe for salvation was the only one that saved. And if people didn't do it exactly like me, the way I did it, and if they didn't repeat the exact same words then they were not saved. I am so glad God did not ask me to help Him figure out the gospel message, He did it very well all by Himself.

 

[SkyWriting]

I was watching a video on youtube and this topic came up, I wanted to know what you guys think. So who are you with, furtick or chandler? Does church need to be about dogma, fighting over calvinism. Or about evangelism, or about a mixture of both evangelism and deep theology? Or should the church avoid dogma such as calvinism, reformed dogma, arminianism and simply just teach the Bible. And how much of the scripture should be taught, for example how deep into scripture should you get. And should you replace deep sermons with more evangelical ones?

If you are confused, check this video:

The church should focus on measurable results. Making a difference in people's lives. This would save the church.

 

[createdtoworship]

The church should focus on measurable results. Making a difference in people's lives. This would save the church.

I still think it's all about holiness. I am not talking about dressing up in a suit for church, hiding your tattoos, or cutting your hair to make you a 'proper christian.' I think it's all about how much of our lives we give to God. Give Him everything. What we eat, the TV we watch. The music we listen to. The words that come out of our mouth, choosing to embrace diversity. I just talked to a christian brother tonight that was raised by two democrats his whole life, and is registered democrat but was thinking of voting republican during the next election simply because he didn't like how the democrats treated trump. He thought they treated him bad. I embraced that. I don't agree with his view of politics but we were able to fellowship. I didn't even say who I was voting for. I don't think my view is important, it's all about others, to be focused on other people. I am not saying this to provoke a political discussion. That is not my point. But we can unite even when we are different. I think the church is too focused on politics and not the gospel to deliver us from our personal addictions. If we focused on the power of the gospel over sin, true repentance, love of others not like us, not being judgmental. But really loving one another. You will get both democrats and republicans at your church. But it's about not majoring in the minors, and not minoring in the majors. I think love is key. If we sense superiority or unlove and unforgiveness, we need to repent as a church and go back to how Jesus did the church. It was all about community.

 

[SkyWriting]

It was all about community.

As I said. Making an impact on the lives of others is the only things that works. Broadcasting does nothing. Listening works.

 

[createdtoworship]

As I said. Making an impact on the lives of others is the only things that works. Broadcasting does nothing. Listening works.

I agree with you. Listening is key. I just saw this guy on instagram, I love what he says.....

Instagram

 

[createdtoworship]

 

[com7fy8]

Do what God's word says to do, and become an example so newborn children of God can feed on your example and be helped by your prayer.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Therefore our basic calling includes to submit to how our Father personally rules each of us in our "hearts", in coordination with all of us "in one body".

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

And 1 Timothy 2:1-4 says what to do > "first of all". And if we do the praying which God means > "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7)

This is included in God's doctrine, and evangelism brings people to doing all this.

So, does the doctrine of Calvinism bring people to this? Does free will teaching bring people to this? Does a church's evangelism minister people into personally submitting to how our Father personally rules each of us in His peace in our hearts and minds? We need to have people who are healthy and strong in God's all-loving family caring and sharing love, and obeying Him in His peace, so these people can minister this to ones who trust in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12).

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

 

[ZNP]

I was watching a video on youtube and this topic came up, I wanted to know what you guys think. So who are you with, furtick or chandler? Does church need to be about dogma, fighting over calvinism. Or about evangelism, or about a mixture of both evangelism and deep theology? Or should the church avoid dogma such as calvinism, reformed dogma, arminianism and simply just teach the Bible. And how much of the scripture should be taught, for example how deep into scripture should you get. And should you replace deep sermons with more evangelical ones?

If you are confused, check this video:

What is more important the gas pedal or the brake for a car?

 

[timothyu]

Focus on outreach, don't be comfortable with who is there now, seek out the lost.

Is the idea to drag new members into the organization, or get out there and do unto others as Jesus commanded and set the example of the Kingdom.

 

[timothyu]

it's important to have a church to go to, but I agree denominational division should come down.

To what? Perhaps a way of life rather than a religion?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Just to mention that the idea of dogma versus Biblical doctrine is not a Scriptural distinction. So there should be not conflict between proclaiming the Gospel and Biblically sanctioned activities, strictly speaking.

 

[timothyu]

So there should be not conflict between proclaiming the Gospel and Biblically sanctioned activities, strictly speaking.

What if a gospel was used that condones the system created. Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom condemns the ways and institutions of man. The gospel of salvation condones affiliating with the traditional ways of man as the religion once did when it partnered with the Roman Empire to become a ruling power itself. Kind of a chicken/egg type of situation.

 

[faroukfarouk]

What if a gospel was used that condones the system created. Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom condemns the ways and institutions of man. The gospel of salvation condones affiliating with the traditional ways of man as the religion once did when it partnered with the Roman Empire to become a ruling power itself. Kind of a chicken/egg type of situation.

Alliances with the state have always proved problematic.

 

[Sabertooth]

I agree denominational division should come down.

The only way for that to happen is to agree to a core set of beliefs. That would be a de facto denomination and quash the Spirit building His Church. The turmoil is here to stay.

The best that we can do (right now) is love each other and agree to disagree. As we get closer to Jesus, we will get closer to each other.

"Now John answered [Jesus], saying,
'Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name,
and we forbade him because he does not follow us.'

But Jesus said,
'Do not forbid him,
for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
For he who is not against us is on our side.
For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ,
assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.' " Mark 9:38-41 NKJV

 

[JIMINZ]

The Church should come together to fellowship for the betterment of the Body of Believers in that Church, not to just be preached at.

That body should take care of itself first, because if the body is not cared for, any outreach will not work.

Once the body is sufficiently taken care of, then the body can organize to have outreach to the community at large, to take care of the Sick, the Poor, the Widows, the Elderly, food clothing and everything else the body can acquire to help others with.

When the Kingdom of God is expressed those people will come to it, they will be drawn to it by God Himself, and there will be added to your number as He has determined.

The body will then grow by Gods' hand not the body's, there is no room for boasting by the body.

Just do those things that are needful for the community and the growth will take care of itself.

As long as the Body is keep healthy it will function properly.

 

[createdtoworship]

duplicate

 

[createdtoworship]

Do what God's word says to do, and become an example so newborn children of God can feed on your example and be helped by your prayer.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Therefore our basic calling includes to submit to how our Father personally rules each of us in our "hearts", in coordination with all of us "in one body".

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

And 1 Timothy 2:1-4 says what to do > "first of all". And if we do the praying which God means > "the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (in Philippians 4:6-7)

This is included in God's doctrine, and evangelism brings people to doing all this.

So, does the doctrine of Calvinism bring people to this? Does free will teaching bring people to this? Does a church's evangelism minister people into personally submitting to how our Father personally rules each of us in His peace in our hearts and minds? We need to have people who are healthy and strong in God's all-loving family caring and sharing love, and obeying Him in His peace, so these people can minister this to ones who trust in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12).

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

Is the idea to drag new members into the organization, or get out there and do unto others as Jesus commanded and set the example of the Kingdom.

To what? Perhaps a way of life rather than a religion?

Just to mention that the idea of dogma versus Biblical doctrine is not a Scriptural distinction. So there should be not conflict between proclaiming the Gospel and Biblically sanctioned activities, strictly speaking.

The only way for that to happen is to agree to a core set of beliefs. That would be a de facto denomination and quash the Spirit building His Church. The turmoil is here to stay.

The best that we can do (right now) is love each other and agree to disagree. As we get closer to Jesus, we will get closer to each other.

"Now John answered [Jesus], saying,
'Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name,
and we forbade him because he does not follow us.'

But Jesus said,
'Do not forbid him,
for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
For he who is not against us is on our side.
For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ,
assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.' " Mark 9:38-41 NKJV

The Church should come together to fellowship for the betterment of the Body of Believers in that Church, not to just be preached at.

That body should take care of itself first, because if the body is not cared for, any outreach will not work.

Once the body is sufficiently taken care of, then the body can organize to have outreach to the community at large, to take care of the Sick, the Poor, the Widows, the Elderly, food clothing and everything else the body can acquire to help others with.

When the Kingdom of God is expressed those people will come to it, they will be drawn to it by God Himself, and there will be added to your number as He has determined.

The body will then grow by Gods' hand not the body's, there is no room for boasting by the body.

Just do those things that are needful for the community and the growth will take care of itself.

As long as the Body is keep healthy it will function properly.

The Church should come together to fellowship for the betterment of the Body of Believers in that Church, not to just be preached at.

That body should take care of itself first, because if the body is not cared for, any outreach will not work.

Once the body is sufficiently taken care of, then the body can organize to have outreach to the community at large, to take care of the Sick, the Poor, the Widows, the Elderly, food clothing and everything else the body can acquire to help others with.

When the Kingdom of God is expressed those people will come to it, they will be drawn to it by God Himself, and there will be added to your number as He has determined.

The body will then grow by Gods' hand not the body's, there is no room for boasting by the body.

Just do those things that are needful for the community and the growth will take care of itself.

As long as the Body is keep healthy it will function properly.

Our church had a view that "healthy sheep reproduce." And I get what they are saying, but over the decades, as leaders got older, so did their traditions and how things "ought to be done." The pastor who used to welcome rebel groups into the flock, homeless, skaters, and gang members. Now everyone in the sanctuary is middle or high income, all the leaders have nice houses and nice garbs. If a skater with blue hair came into the church now, they would feel alone and isolated. That is because while we were focussing on doctrine and teaching so well. We forgot about the world out there. It's one thing to teach solid doctrine, but it's another thing to be focussed on the lost. The church by and large has closed herself off to public by aligning with right wing politics for example, excluding any and all liberals as evil and thus causing a huge rift. Jesus stayed pretty politically neutral. But the church got comfortable, and made worldly pacts with right wing political leaders. I look at this as ancient israel in abrahams day looking to egypt to answer the problem of famine in the land. God said he would make abraham great. Abraham had a trial and ran out of food, instead of praying and waiting on God he went to egypt. Christians started losing rights a few decades ago, so they have aligned with right wing politics. Now there is a place for both sides of the political spectrum. I agree in part with both sides, I am moderate. But I feel excluded, I am too liberal for a conservative, and too conservative for a liberal. And I am a republican, but I feel the church has aligned with republicanism which to me is like egypt. They feel if they can have some representation in government that egypt will help them. They made the same mistake abraham did. We should trust God, not man to help us. That is how the church should operate. Should churches have voter drives, sure. But don't say which to vote for. Don't make politics a thing. It's ok to talk legislation if you need to. But avoid controversy. I love prolife organizers. But preaching against abortion every service is going to turn off half of the young girls that are college age. They need help. They are christian too, but they may have had an abortion already and you preaching on it made them feel that their shameful act makes them inappropriate for church. I am not saying don't talk about hot topics, but maybe not in the main service, where you can expect non christians there. Again have a service that is light on doctrine, and heavy on evangelism, and the milk of scripture. Then have a night or midweek study more indepth. That way you do both. You have a light version for those not ready for heavy doctrine and a heavy version for those wanting to go further. You can't lay out all the rules of christianity, if the non christian does not know the rule maker. I believe we should teach the ten commands, but not before they understand why we have commands. Sin is not bad because it's forbidden, it's forbidden because it's bad. Why is it bad to have sex before marriage. Because a higher rate of STD and teen pregnancy, and also a higher divorce rate. That is why it's a sin. It's not a sin because it violates a law. It's a sin because it's bad for you. So most preachers of the 10 commands don't do that. They don't explain why it's wrong, they just say......God says it therefore I believe it. And that is ok but for a new christian, more information is often more helpful for them.

 

[timothyu]

They don't explain why it's wrong, they just say......God says it therefore I believe it.

The church has been doing that since it rejoined the Roman empire 1700 years ago. Do as we say but not as we do in abandoning the Kingdom for the world of man. Otherwise they would have to teach the division between the world of man and the Kingdom which runs in conflict with their amalgamation and how the ways of the Kingdom, putting God;'s will ahead of our own which is loving all as self, counteracts every evil man devises.