[MOVED] What is more important dogma or evangelism in a church?

[createdtoworship]

I was watching a video on youtube and this topic came up, I wanted to know what you guys think. So who are you with, furtick or chandler? Does church need to be about dogma, fighting over calvinism. Or about evangelism, or about a mixture of both evangelism and deep theology? Or should the church avoid dogma such as calvinism, reformed dogma, arminianism and simply just teach the Bible. And how much of the scripture should be taught, for example how deep into scripture should you get. And should you replace deep sermons with more evangelical ones?

If you are confused, check this video:

 

[Sabertooth]

Bodies (like the Church) need both muscle AND bone (and joints ).

• Bones must be rigid, and
• Muscles must be dynamic.

There can be no locomotion if either is missing.

See 1 Cor. 12:12-26.

 

[redleghunter]

It’s a needless and dangerous fabricated dichotomy.

If one’s doctrine is wrong they preach a false gospel.

 

[Sabertooth]

If one’s doctrine is wrong they preach a false gospel.

If it is significantly wrong. We are all going to be wrong to a degree until 1 John 3:2.

 

[timothyu]

Scripture and following the will of God, not man.

 

[createdtoworship]

Bodies (like the Church) need both muscle AND bone (and joints ).

• Bones need to be rigid, and
• Muscles need to be dynamic.

There can be no locomotion if either is missing.

See 1 Cor. 12:12-26.

It’s a needless and dangerous fabricated dichotomy.

If one’s doctrine is wrong they preach a false gospel.

Scripture and following the will of God, not man.

But I think the point of furtick was this, should we focus on dogma. I mean we have all had debates in the theology threads, and sometimes there is a difficult passage that average people don't understand. But should we focus church on the questionable doctrine? Or on doctrine that is not divisive, evangelism....loving your enemy.....being a good father....being a loving husband......following God's laws even in the small thing. Getting fired up over God in general. Because I will be honest with ya'll when I spent years focused on controversial theology I was dead inside. Because all I did was feed my life with controversy, it was like.....if I figure God out, I don't have to actually apply anything I can just be in a 'sort of exploratory mode' if that makes any sense. So anyway....thats my two cents.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I was watching a video on youtube and this topic came up, I wanted to know what you guys think. So who are you with, furtick or chandler? Does church need to be about dogma, fighting over calvinism. Or about evangelism, or about a mixture of both evangelism and deep theology? Or should the church avoid dogma such as calvinism, reformed dogma, arminianism and simply just teach the Bible. And how much of the scripture should be taught, for example how deep into scripture should you get. And should you replace deep sermons with more evangelical ones?

If you are confused, check this video:

We need to preach the Kingdom of God. Just getting people "saved" (and that is much more than just getting people to church) is not enough. Shallow conversions produce shallow Christians. The first thing Christians need is the truth of what Lord Jesus has done for them. Luke 4:18 is the real gospel. Debating "deep" theology does not help someone who struggles with bitterness, resentment, unforgiveness, broken relationships, job loss and the myriad issues of life that can bind us up.

No "ism" is worth dividing the church over. No "ism" will make a Christian more Christlike. The truth is to set us free, not to enable Christians to go to war over over pet doctrines.

 

[timothyu]

All He asks of us here is to put the Father's will before our own, which is love all as self.

 

[Sabertooth]

But I think the point of furtick was this, should we focus on dogma. I mean we have all had debates in the theology threads, and sometimes there is a difficult passage that average people don't understand. But should we focus church on the questionable doctrine? Or on doctrine that is not divisive, evangelism....loving your enemy.....being a good father....being a loving husband......following God's laws even in the small thing. Getting fired up over God in general. Because I will be honest with ya'll when I spent years focused on controversial theology I was dead inside. Because all I did was feed my life with controversy, it was like.....if I figure God out, I don't have to actually apply anything I can just be in a 'sort of exploratory mode' if that makes any sense. So anyway....thats my two cents.

From an evangelical standpoint, we must get them into the Door. But it must be the right Door; the living Door. That calls for a degree of accuracy in those surrounding doctrines.

Other topics like demonology or eschatology* don't need to be resolved at that point. Once we are Born-Again, then we can begin to "see" the Kingdom of God and those things that the Holy Spirit wants to teach us. (Even though it is His goal to conform each one of us to the image of Jesus, I believe that He personalizes that process for each individual, since we all start off from different places.)

*They are certainly in our part of our curriculum at a later date.

 

[createdtoworship]

From an evangelical standpoint, we must get them into the Door. But it must be the right Door; the living Door. That calls for a degree of accuracy in those surrounding doctrines.

Other topics like demonology or eschatology* don't need to be resolved at that point. Once we are Born-Again, then we can begin to "see" the Kingdom of God and those things that the Holy Spirit wants to teach us. (Even though it is His goal to conform each one of us to the image of Jesus, I believe that He personalizes that process for each individual, since we all start off from different places.)

*They are certainly in our part of our curriculum at a later date.

I am not talking about essential doctrines, I am talking about calvinism, reformed doctrine, fighting over spiritual gifts or end times studies. I have my own biases, but at what point to we just say.....I don't care about what you believe, I want you saved first and foremost. And if I view that as the best, why shouldn't a pastor or leader. I come from a very arrogant and somewhat prideful group. They have very good doctrine. But over the years we sort of closed ourselves off from people that were not like us. For instance if a pastor at the church held to different end times than the head pastor, they were fired. Our church used to be more gracious over things, and now that we are big, we sort of closed off to our particular recipe of christian thought. If someone comes in now, our first priority is make them dress like me, worship like me, and sound like me, instead of getting them saved , and cherishing salvation first and foremost.

 

[Carl Emerson]

In the seventies when He was moving and the church exploded, it was all hands on deck, reaching out together in unity, loving the lost and rejoicing together with the new brothers and sisters. Dogma took a back seat. Shoulder to shoulder with 'whoever', together in awe of what He was doing.

 

[Sabertooth]

And if I view that as the best, why shouldn't a pastor or leader.

A pastor's responsibility is broader in scope.

"And he gave

• some, apostles; and
• some, prophets; and
• some, evangelists; and
• some, pastors and
• teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come in the unity

• of the faith, and
• of the knowledge of the Son of God,
• unto a perfect man,
• unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:..." Ephesians 4:11-13 NKJV

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,
let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation

• of repentance from dead works and
• of faith toward God,
• of the doctrine of baptisms,
• of laying on of hands,
• of resurrection of the dead, and
• of eternal judgment.

And this we will do if God permits." Hebrews 6:1-3 NKJV

 

[createdtoworship]

In the seventies when He was moving and the church exploded, it was all hands on deck, reaching out together in unity, loving the lost and rejoicing together with the new brothers and sisters. Dogma took a back seat. Shoulder to shoulder with 'whoever', together in awe of what He was doing.

yes I loved the Jesus movement. It's still happening now, it's just not as widespread as it was in the 70's. The pastors in the OP are interesting. See because many of them are from contradicting doctrinal perspectives, and you can tell by the debate. But my point is that chandler used to be more apostolic, caring more about evangelism than doctrine, but slowly doctrinal pride creeps in. I am not saying don't have doctrinal classes and focus on correctness, but don't speak of divisive doctrine from the pulpit. Mark Driscoll has his own move of the Holy Spirit starting the acts 29 network of churches. It always starts out with a move of the spirit, then spiritual pride comes in, and with it doctrinal arrogance. Now mark is out of the loop currently, just speaking occasionally. I don't see Furtick as getting proud yet, I like Him. I don't agree with everything that He says, but I like that He is focused on evangelism. But at some point people will come in and say.....he you can't just let all these people in here, you need to start making them remove their tattoos and piercings, and taking the dye out of their hair and make them look like 'proper christians.' You will see that revival slowly dwindle out after that. Because in accepting people in their rawness, you are revealing the Heart of Jesus. The first time I encountered my church everyone had long hair and the guy that invited me had piercings all over and purple hair. If that same guy stepped into my church today, people would feel uncomfortable around him. We have changed. Our church has less young people, and more of the older generation. I can tell our revival is done, but for some, it's not done.

 

[createdtoworship]

A pastor's responsibility is broader in scope.

"And he gave

• some, apostles; and
• some, prophets; and
• some, evangelists; and
• some, pastors and
• teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come in the unity

• of the faith, and
• of the knowledge of the Son of God,
• unto a perfect man,
• unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:..." Ephesians 4:11-13 NKJV

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,
let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation

• of repentance from dead works and
• of faith toward God,
• of the doctrine of baptisms,
• of laying on of hands,
• of resurrection of the dead, and
• of eternal judgment.

And this we will do if God permits." Hebrews 6:1-3 NKJV

but should a church that is focussed on outreach ever 'leave the elementary principles?" I mean why not have classes, even a bible college at your church for those who want to go further. But have the general service be more geared toward the lost?

 

[redleghunter]

Or on doctrine that is not divisive, evangelism....loving your enemy.....being a good father....being a loving husband......following God's laws even in the small thing. Getting fired up over God in general.

Evangelism is preaching the Gospel. Is what you wrote above the gospel ?

 

[JIMINZ]

I left the Traditions, Rituals, Dogmas, and Theologians many years ago.

I was raised in it, was not able to practice was in the Military, then when I got out after 4 years, what I found was, the greater majority of what I had been taught as a child was ALL Variable, anything and everything was subject to change, the things which meant soooo much, over night could change, and had.

I was then a ship without a rudder, but because of what I had been taught, I was lost, I felt as though I had lost God Himself, because what I had been taught was that my Denomination was the only one with the truth and to not associate with those others because they are all going to Hell because they didn't believe what we did.

Where was I to go, if I have lost the truth what was left.

Then I found that God is not in any Denomination, God resides within our hearts through His Holy Spirit.

Once God had Shown His Grace upon me, I wanted everything He had.

Theologians use Dogma as a scourge on the Body of Christ, bringing us into captivity to the Traditions, and Rituals of men.

 

[Sabertooth]

but should a church that is focussed on outreach ever 'leave the elementary principles?"

Evangelism is an important function of the Church, just not it's sole function. There's the "milk" of the Word and there's the "meat" of the Word.

 

[createdtoworship]

I left the Traditions, Rituals, Dogmas, and Theologians many years ago.

I was raised in it, was not able to practice was in the Military, then when I got out after 4 years, what I found was, the greater majority of what I had been taught as a child was ALL Variable, anything and everything was subject to change, the things which meant soooo much, over night could change, and had.

I was then a ship without a rudder, but because of what I had been taught, I was lost, I felt as though I had lost God Himself, because what I had been taught was that my Denomination was the only one with the truth and to not associate with those others because they are all going to Hell because they didn't believe what we did.

Where was I to go, if I have lost the truth what was left.

Then I found that God is not in any Denomination, God resides within our hearts through His Holy Spirit.

Once God had Shown His Grace upon me, I wanted everything He had.

Theologians use Dogma as a scourge on the Body of Christ, bringing us into captivity to the Traditions, and Rituals of men.

it's important to have a church to go to, but I agree denominational division should come down.

 

[createdtoworship]

Evangelism is preaching the Gospel. Is what you wrote above the gospel ?

Evangelism is an important function of the Church, just not it's sole function. There's the "milk" of the Word and there's the "meat" of the Word.

as I said our church used to be very accepting of different doctrine, oh you don't believe the rapture, sure, come sit next to me in church.....oh you dont' believe gifts of the spirit are for today, that's ok you can break bread with me in church. But now as our church got a new building and got thousands of people, people have started to leave. Do we have doctrine? Yes! probably the most perfect doctrine I have ever seen, but they lost something in the process. They lost the love and grace to dwell with other types of christians. We even have the reputation as being prideful and arrogant in the city we live in. Who cares if you have doctrine, if you don't have love.....your a sounding brass. 1 corinthians 13:1 Now I am not saying don't have doctrine. I among all believe in the importance of doctrine. But I don't think it should be the MAIN SERVICE on sunday to be your most deep theological discussion. I think maybe have two services and do an in depth evening service to talk about deeper things, maybe go through the Bible book by book. Then morning service be about unifying the city under God. Coming together as one body. Buy that extra screen, buy the bigger amplifyer. Get your drummer a new drum set. Focus on outreach, don't be comfortable with who is there now, seek out the lost.

 

[JIMINZ]

it's important to have a church to go to, but I agree denominational division should come down.

As I see it, the Denominational Hierarchy are the ones who propagate the division of the Body, the people would fellowship if the distinction between the Denominations were not propagated.