[MOVED] I Really am Trying to Believe...

[Mountain_Girl406]

So if you've searched for God for years and haven't found him, does that mean you were never wanted by Him? Are some predestined to not be able to find faith no matter what?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Parting the Red Sea comes to mind. The Eden story. The flood. Even Jesus walking on water, or the virgin birth.

I don't know if this will help or not but I'll come at it from the way that I see it and why I believe these things.

I believe that God created the universe, earth and all of creation. I also believe that God created all things where there was nothing and that God is eternal.

Now, if you also believe that, then why would you find it hard to believe the same God who created the earth, water and the Red Sea to begin with, would not be able to part the sea He created?

The same type of thing with Jesus walking on water. Jesus was fully God while He was here on earth. I don't find it hard to believe that Jesus could have walked on water if He desired to, which He did. And as far as the virgin birth, that's the easiest one for me to believe. We know now through science that to form an embryo that all that is needed is for a male sperm to fertilize a female ovum. For the two to meet and combine. I don't find it hard to believe at all that if God wanted to have His Son born on the earth, being fully God as well as fully man, that God would have had to have been the one to miraculously have cells (I know this is the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one right now) that would have been from God/Holy Spirit to in turn create the cell structure to allow Mary to give birth to Jesus, both fully God and fully man. I would find it much weirder to think it was Joseph through 'normal' means that somehow would create Jesus being fully God. That would be weird.

I hope this makes sense, I just wanted to come at it from a different angle and show you why I do believe. Hope it helps.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, yes. That's understandable. I'm sure many people -atheists, agnostics, Jews, Buddhists, and other Christians- do not like your particular vision of God, just as you undoubtedly do not like the concept of God put forth by Islam, the Mormons, or pretty much every other religion. Am I wrong?



Knowledge would be great. How do I get faith? The only thing I can say is that I am not prepared to humble myself before someone unless they can explain to me why their knowledge of God is better than mine, or someone else's. So I'm asking how to find my own.



What is man's objective?



I'm not sure what to make of this. I was able to volunteer in disaster relief efforts outside Nepal earlier this year. I do not know if I met Christians, but I know I met plenty of compassionate non-Christians selflessly helping others. I have also been involved in sponsoring a Chinese Christian in getting a visa in my community several years ago. She was a wonderful person, quite inspiring, but her faith was quite different from anything I've experienced from other Christians. I suspect you would not count her among your ranks, as her concept of Christ is quite unusual.

Can I ask you what you do believe? Like do you believe that there is a God who created life? All things?

It would be helpful to know what you do believe in rather and start a conversation maybe from that angle. What do you think? Would that be ok?

 

[bling]

Well, yes. That's understandable. I'm sure many people -atheists, agnostics, Jews, Buddhists, and other Christians- do not like your particular vision of God, just as you undoubtedly do not like the concept of God put forth by Islam, the Mormons, or pretty much every other religion. Am I wrong?.

You are right about me not liking what others think “God” is like, but that is because they are presenting: a selfish god, a god trying to make you do somethings to earn/deserve your salvation, A needy god, a god that is not Love (totally unselfish), a god far from us, a god that is not seen as our shepherd and a god not seen as our Father.

Knowledge would be great. How do I get faith? The only thing I can say is that I am not prepared to humble myself before someone unless they can explain to me why their knowledge of God is better than mine, or someone else's. So I'm asking how to find my own..

You have a God given faith that allows you to “trust” in many things, so what is keeping you from turning your faith toward a Creator?

I am not asking you to: humble yourself before people”, but I am talking about humbling yourself before God. The reason you would do such a thing is by coming to the realization you cannot by your own power get out of your tragic situation, need help and are willing to humbly accept God’s help.

What is man's objective?.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.


What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?


There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened. Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).


You really need to read the Gospels because this “Love” is defined by all Christ did and said.

I'm not sure what to make of this. I was able to volunteer in disaster relief efforts outside Nepal earlier this year. I do not know if I met Christians, but I know I met plenty of compassionate non-Christians selflessly helping others. I have also been involved in sponsoring a Chinese Christian in getting a visa in my community several years ago. She was a wonderful person, quite inspiring, but her faith was quite different from anything I've experienced from other Christians. I suspect you would not count her among your ranks, as her concept of Christ is quite unusual.

There are lots of non-Christian reasons for doing good, so not everyone that serves is doing it out of just gratitude to God for what He has done for them. I do not know about the lady you sponsored. Those that call themselves “Christians” and are only part of the Government sanctioned church really know nothing about Christ as the savior and son.

 

[JGG]

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[JGG]

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[JGG]

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[ToBeLoved]

I'm not saying God wasn't, or isn't able. I have to question whether He did. Plenty of other populations, including Jews, have been in the similar situations or worse ones, and did not receive a miracle to save them. Believing in miracles like this are harder to accept when we don't see them in the modern age.

Well first of all Jews do believe in the Bible. In the Bible is the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament was before Jesus (Messiah) and the New Testament is Jesus life and after, so Jews believe only the Old Testament. What they do not believe is that Jesus is the Messiah.

Second, if you read the Old Testament you will see that they are a specific people. The people that were slaves of the Egyptian Pharoah's in Egypt. This has been documented by the Egyptians as well as the Bible as well as by other ancient sources, so the people of the Bible are real.

The other people's of the earth had idol's or gods made out of clay or statues or other things. That is a fact too. Each ancient civilization had these different god's they believed in. The Hebrew God or the God of the Bible told His people never to make an idol or use anything created by man to represent Him (God). Remember the story of when Moses went up the mountain to get the 10 Commandments and he was up there for like 40 days and the people got all of their gold together and created that golden calf and when Moses came down the mountain they were worshipping it? And God told them that none of them would ever see the promised land in their lifetimes? And that is what happened, the people wandered in the desert for about 40 years until all the people who had been the golden calf worshippers were dead.

People talk a lot about some of the miracles of the Bible, but most of the Bible is not about miracles at all. If anything, God gave more Laws to His people. Most Bible stories do not involve miracles.

This one is tougher for me to believe. The act of walking on water did not seem to serve any purpose other than to demonstrate that He could. In fact, the purpose seemed to be to prove to the disciples that Jesus was divine. However, I am told that I have to believe simply on the word of other Christians. It seems the disciples, Thomas in particular, were incapable of faith without proof, and yet, received it. So what am I to do?

Well there was a reason for it. Actually the only ones who saw Jesus walk on water were the 12 disciples. Like if He was trying to prove to the masses that He was God, He would have been doing it wrong, know what I mean? Why only show 12 people and the 12 people that already believe that you are God, to boot?

If you remember, Jesus called Peter to come out to Him and it was during a terrible storm with thunder, lightening and big waves. Peter did begin to walk toward Jesus, however after he had taken a few steps and he realized he was walking on water, he started wondering 'how can this be'? 'How am I doing this'? and not trusting that God would never have allowed anything to happen to him. He second guessed his faith, which caused him to begin sinking at which time he called out to Jesus to save Him. Jesus did indeed save him and the moral of the story is that faith is a big part of God's relationship with us. It is a walk of faith.

I don't see why Mary had to remain a virgin. I don't understand why Jesus' conception or birth had to be spectacular at all.

Ok, so this is complicated, so I have cut and pasted this from a web page http://www.gotquestions.org/virgin-birth.html (this is a good site that answers all kind of questions with good, biblical answers). Big thumbs up!

Question: "Why is the Virgin Birth so important?"

Answer: The doctrine of the virgin birth is crucially important (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27, 34). First, let’s look at how Scripture describes the event. In response to Mary’s question, “How will this be?” (Luke 1:34), Gabriel says, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35). The angel encourages Joseph to not fear marrying Mary with these words: “What is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:20). Matthew states that the virgin “was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18). Galatians 4:4 also teaches the Virgin Birth: “God sent His Son, born of a woman.”

From these passages, it is certainly clear that Jesus’ birth was the result of the Holy Spirit working within Mary’s body. The immaterial (the Spirit) and the material (Mary’s womb) were both involved. Mary, of course, could not impregnate herself, and in that sense she was simply a “vessel.” Only God could perform the miracle of the Incarnation.

However, denying a physical connection between Mary and Jesus would imply that Jesus was not truly human. Scripture teaches that Jesus was fully human, with a physical body like ours. This He received from Mary. At the same time, Jesus was fully God, with an eternal, sinless nature (John 1:14; 1 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 2:14-17.)

Jesus was not born in sin; that is, He had no sin nature (Hebrews 7:26). It would seem that the sin nature is passed down from generation to generation through the father (Romans 5:12, 17, 19). The Virgin Birth circumvented the transmission of the sin nature and allowed the eternal God to become a perfect man.

It does. But I think it makes sense from the perspective of someone who already believes.

It's really not that at all. The truth is that most people really do not take the time to read or understand the bible. I'm not talking about just reading the chapters, that doesn't work because the Bible is not like a novel. Different books and situations reference each other, it's really fascinating.

What is the truth is that most people want to believe in God and go to the local church and just listen for an hour a week so they can go to heaven. Well, and they pray occasionally when they need something.

The Bible being so fascinating and so strong, only reinforces my belief. There is a reason for everything that God has done and what is written in the Bible. Most people do not take the time to find out what that is or what the Bible says for themselves. They count on some other person to tell them what to believe (and many are wrong when they are teaching).

 

[JGG]

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[ToBeLoved]

Now I see what kind of miracles you are talking about. Like saving people from harm or tragedy.

When we were created and we were created in the image of God, that gave people free choice. Even before the fall of Adam and Eve in Eden, they had free choice in that they could have (and did) choose to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

One of the beautiful things about being human is the ability to choose beautiful things, to love.

One of the not so beautiful thing about being human is the ability to choose hate, self interest and to hurt others.

However, no matter what our life on this earth is only a very small miniscule amount of time relative to eternity.

 

[aiki]

I was responding to your claim: "God cannot be confined by our science, and philosophy, and our mundane, human experience and until you accept this, He will remain obscure to you."

This suggests that if I do accept this (and reject science, philosophy and human experience), that God will be un-obscured. So yes, it does seem odd, but I felt that that was exactly what you were suggesting.

I think you're framing things in a far too one-or-the-other manner. It is not either/or, but both/and. One doesn't have to forsake science, and reason, and human experience utterly in walking with God; it is only necessary to recognize that these things have very distinct limits insofar as comprehending God is concerned.

I have to disagree. God has not shared with me all I need to know about Him. God has shared precious little with me.

But, you see, you aren't the one who gets to lay out the ground-rules, the framework, within which you will relate with God. You are the inferior, the lesser, when you come to God. It is His prerogative as your Maker and Sustainer to establish the basis upon which you may know and walk with Him. If you can't be humble enough to accept this, God will remain a stranger to you.

How do I do that without bowing down to other people?

It's interesting you ask this because Scripture indicates that the humility we embrace in order to relate with Him we ought also to extend to those around us. Our submission to God is reflected in a gracious humility toward others. Now, don't get me wrong: we are no where in Scripture commanded to bow down in worship to anyone other than God. But pride, conceit, arrogance - these things God says repeatedly and explicitly in Scripture He actively resists.

Selah.

 

[bling]

It's easy to see the Christian God like that because He can be portrayed that way by Christians, and in scripture. Is it fair to say that you can't believe in a God that you don't like?

Yes

What do you think I have "faith" in?

You may not even realize it but you are making choices all the time by your actions more than by your words. These can be assumptions you are making. You may be acting right now like there is no God, but you cannot know that. When you look at a tree, what are you assuming about how life got into that tree? You can say: “I do not know”, but are you assuming God did not do it?

God has not given me instructions.

God is not instructing you to “do” anything, but are you “needing” God to do something for you that would make a huge difference in your life?

Is it not possible to believe because it is the truth? Is it only possible to believe because I expect to be rewarded for my faith? I have a hard time believing that God would want it that way.

I can tell you about all the gifts that come with believing, but please do not think your believing makes you “deserving” of these gifts in any way. You are not being “rewarded” for your faith, but with faith (trust) in a benevolent Creator to the point of being willing to accept His charity comes a ton of undeserved gifts.

Not sure what you mean by “believe because it is the truth”? If you are saying; “Have knowledge of the reality of God’s existence”, that is not the “faith” that will save. The truth is: “The Christian description of the Creator is correct”, so believing (trusting) in that truth is easier that not believing it is true.

Like we talked about: “you can't believe in a God that you don't like”, but if you do see a God that is totally unselfish and like what you see and want yourself to be like this God, you will want to believe in Him. That want allows you to accept the evidence that is all around you (life).

I apologize, I did not understand that. I understand the words, and the sentiment. I do not understand how it addressed my question.

Man’s objective is to obtain and grow Godly type Love, so man becomes just like God Himself in that man has God’s same Love. I just needed to explain both what Godly type Love is and how everything works around helping willing individuals fulfill that objective. God’s objective is to help man fulfill man’s objective.

But if Jesus said to love others, to take care of His children, how is it a non-Christian reason to help them out of love?

Jesus is talking only about agape or Godly type love.

There are lots of different but very strong types of love: brotherly love can be huge, spousal love can be huge, the love of a child for his/her parent can be huge, the love for a parent toward their child can be huge and the love of self (how you would like others to perceive you to be can be huge).

True Godly type Love is way above all other types of love (most can be virtually instinctive): It has nothing to do with who is being Loved (it could be a person that has tortured and killed your family and is coming after you). Godly type Love comes out of who you are and is closely aligned to pure gratitude for what God has already done for you. It is not something you do to get anything (praises of men) , it is not due as a result of doing it for lovable people/country/family and you will not get anything “more” for doing it.

 

[JGG]

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[JGG]

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[AphroditeGoneAwry]

But this only goes one way does it not? Part of my problems with Christians is that I know Christians hold themselves above everyone else. They would never humble themselves before an atheist, Jew, Muslim, or any unbeliever.

It depends on what the circumstances are. Jesus is the perfect example of Christianity, and He was not humble before all men all the time.

"A time of love, and a time to hate;
A time of war, and a time of peace." ~ Ecc 3:8

There is such a thing as righteous indignation when speaking the truth for God to glorify Him. There is a time for the rebuking of brethren who are going astray.

God's chosen ones are special. Being part of God's family separates you and elevates your status spiritually. That manifests in humility and servanthood leadership most of the time. But there are times when chosen ones have to leave the world alone to its own devices and move on to help those who are desperately seeking help. As Jesus did. People came to Jesus to be healed, and that was a necessary part of their healing, and ultimate faith.

[Servant leadership can be found in many religious texts, though the philosophy itself transcends any particular religious tradition. In the Christian tradition, this passage from theGospel of Mark is often quoted in discussions of servant leadership:

"42 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:42-45 [1]]

Also, there is an admonition in the message of Ezekiel that states that God will warn those who are lost with 'watchmen', and it is the watchmen's duties to proclaim to the wicked to turn from their iniquity so that they might be saved in those days, just before God strikes.

If God's watchmen are all practicing zen Buddhism on a mountaintop somewhere, are not practicing discernment and judgment whatsoever, who will warn those sinners steeped in their iniquity? In the Bible, it states all these will be lost: the watchmen for not doing their duties, and those who were lost to begin with.

~Selah

 

[aiki]

That may be, but can you recognize that you are still expecting me to humble myself before you?

Can you explain this a bit more, please?

But this only goes one way does it not? Part of my problems with Christians is that I know Christians hold themselves above everyone else. They would never humble themselves before an atheist, Jew, Muslim, or any unbeliever.

Well, what constitutes "humbling oneself" in your view?

Selah.

 

[JGG]

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[JGG]

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[ToBeLoved]

That may be, but can you recognize that you are still expecting me to humble myself before you?

Hi JGG,

I hope that you don't mind my entering your discussion. What would this brother have to gain by expecting you to humble yourself before him? There is no gain for him.

What he knows and is trying to show you is that because God gives us the freedom of choice, He (God) does not force Himself on you or anyone else, so he is trying to show you that in your heart, that you need to make that decision that you want God. That is the experience that he wants you to have, and it has nothing to do with him, but everything to do with you.

No one here wants anything from you then for you to find God. That's all we want. There is nothing in it for us, only for us to share the love of God that we have found with you, that's it.

Can we pray with you?

 

[aiki]

Would you really consider the possibility that a Muslim, atheist, or even agnostic had a correct spiritual path? If one of these people tried to convert you, would you even consider it? Do you not though expect others to convert to your belief system?

Let me put it this way, if I had an alternate view of God and Christ that was different from yours, can you honestly say you would listen and consider it, or would you expect me to expunge this false God, and tell me that I have to follow what you believe?

It is exactly because we humans are so prone to the sort of severe bias and intractable pride you've described here that it takes God Himself to bring us to His truth. I certainly can't penetrate your biases and humble you such that you can accept the truth of the Christian faith. And, really, you can't do so for yourself, either. God has to reach into the life of each of us and work a miracle of illumination, conviction and faith. My "job" is to be a signpost to God in word and deed and to give a reasoned defense of my faith. Persuading you to accept what I'm saying as true is never my goal. That is entirely God's domain.

The things I as a Christian declare about my faith are drawn from the Bible. I can clearly demonstrate that the things I hold forth as representative of the central tenets of the faith are, in fact, what the Bible teaches and what the majority of Christians from the Early Church down to the present have typically believed. Therefore, when I contend for the faith, it is not merely my particular, personal version of the faith. I stand very much in the mainstream of historic and biblical doctrine. I don't, then, urge you to follow merely what I believe, but what God in His Word calls us all to believe.

Selah.