[MOVED] I Really am Trying to Believe...

[JGG]

I'm trying. But I can't help but find the claims in the Bible and by Christians. I seem to think differently than religious people.

I also have issues with Christians themselves. My experience with them tends to hold me back.

Thoughts? Advice?

 

[paul1149]

What kinds of Biblical claims are you having problems with?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm trying. But I can't help but find the claims in the Bible and by Christians. I seem to think differently than religious people.

I also have issues with Christians themselves. My experience with them tends to hold me back.

Thoughts? Advice?

JGG,

I've experienced some of what you're expressing here.

Ever since I became a Christian almost thirty years ago, I have, so to speak, often found myself only able to keep one foot within the typical American evangelical church, while I place my other foot within more philosophical and/or scientific ways of thinking.

I think the reason I struggle with fully settling into the typical evangelical church is that I often find many of my fellow Christians who adhere to their interpretations of Scripture without attempting to consider other various angles, or they are in fact prevented from doing so by overly enthusiastic, hyper-authoritarian ministers/pastors. I find that fellow Christians who attempt to limit my scope of inquiry and evaluation often give me cause to feel alienated (and not because I'm running from them, mind you, but because they flat out reject my alternative considerations or viewpoints, even though I'm confident that many of my interpretations are still within what can be called the "Pail of Orthodoxy.")

Sure, some of my experiences of alienation have likely come about simply because we live in a pluralistic nation where just about everyone, including Christian people, harbor differing viewpoints, viewpoints that are at times incompatible. However, I think the overarching, and unnecessary, problem is that many Christians too easily allow themselves to feel prohibited from 'exploring' Christian concepts, for fear that they'll somehow step into a 'heresy' and become separated from their church.

What I do to alleviate some of this possible tension is remain willing to listen to others, without freaking out, and allow them to speak their minds and share their viewpoints. AT the same time, I allow myself to explore many different viewpoints and/or interpretations of Scripture through philosophical investigation, not only studying alternatives I think I'll agree with most, but also those that I may disagree with. By approaching faith philosophically instead of literally and superficially (like many American Christians do), I allow myself space for stretching my mind and probing my questions. I also don't allow others to place unwarranted guilt trips on me, even when they may seem confident of their position.

In essence, I recommend to you to explore Christian faith, but don't allow hyper-conservatives (or ultra liberals) to spoil the search...

2PhiloVoid

 

[JGG]

What kinds of Biblical claims are you having problems with?

Parting the Red Sea comes to mind. The Eden story. The flood. Even Jesus walking on water, or the virgin birth.

 

[JGG]

JGG,

I've experienced some of what you're expressing here.

Ever since I became a Christian almost thirty years ago, I have, so to speak, often found myself only able to keep one foot within the typical American evangelical church, while I place my other foot within more philosophical and/or scientific ways of thinking.

I think the reason I struggle with fully settling into the typical evangelical church is that I often find many of my fellow Christians who adhere to their interpretations of Scripture without attempting to consider other various angles, or they are in fact prevented from doing so by overly enthusiastic, hyper-authoritarian ministers/pastors. I find that fellow Christians who attempt to limit my scope of inquiry and evaluation often give me cause to feel alienated (and not because I'm running from them, mind you, but because they flat out reject my alternative considerations or viewpoints, even though I'm confident that many of my interpretations are still within what can be called the "Pail of Orthodoxy.")

Sure, some of my experiences of alienation have likely come about simply because we live in a pluralistic nation where just about everyone, including Christian people, harbor differing viewpoints, viewpoints that are at times incompatible. However, I think the overarching, and unnecessary, problem is that many Christians too easily allow themselves to feel prohibited from 'exploring' Christian concepts, for fear that they'll somehow step into a 'heresy' and become separated from their church.

What I do to alleviate some of this possible tension is remain willing to listen to others, without freaking out, and allow them to speak their minds and share their viewpoints. AT the same time, I allow myself to explore many different viewpoints and/or interpretations of Scripture through philosophical investigation, not only studying alternatives I think I'll agree with most, but also those that I may disagree with. By approaching faith philosophically instead of literally and superficially (like many American Christians do), I allow myself space for stretching my mind and probing my questions. I also don't allow others to place unwarranted guilt trips on me, even when they may seem confident of their position.

In essence, I recommend to you to explore Christian faith, but don't allow hyper-conservatives (or ultra liberals) to spoil the search...

2PhiloVoid

Thanks. This may be helpful.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

My advice to you is to pray, read the bible and other Christian books, and find a good Church.

You are doubting the miracles of the bible and this reminds me of Thomas who said he would not believe that the Lord had risen from the dead unless he felt the nail scars. Remember if God can create the world and the entire universe then how easy is it for him to part the Red Sea.

As far as your problems with Christians go...we are only people who are saved by grace through faith. We are flawed and sinful and need to be forgiven the same as you.

 

[JGG]

My advice to you is to pray,

Look at it from my perspective. I cannot do so genuinely.

read the bible and other Christian books,

I've read the bible several times. What books are helpful to someone who isn't exactly new to Christianity, but doesn't get it?

and find a good Church.

But, what makes a good church? Isn't your idea of a good church going to be too wishy washy or too severe to other Christians?

You are doubting the miracles of the bible and this reminds me of Thomas who said he would not believe that the Lord had risen from the dead unless he felt the nail scars.

Yes. But Thomas was able to feel the scars. I do not.

Remember if God can create the world and the entire universe then how easy is it for him to part the Red Sea.

Maybe. But then there are so many things that God should find easy to do but seems to have trouble with. If God really wants me to believe in Him, it should be easy for Him to convince me.

As far as your problems with Christians go...we are only people who are saved by grace through faith. We are flawed and sinful and need to be forgiven the same as you.

That may be true. But it doesn't change the fact.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

What books are helpful to someone who isn't exactly new to Christianity, but doesn't get it?

Here are some books that have helped me, these should get you started:

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-God-J...F8&qid=1437582189&sr=8-1&keywords=knowing+god

http://www.amazon.com/Grace-Changes...s=why+grace+changes+everything+by+chuck+smith

http://www.amazon.com/Spirituality-...sr=8-2&keywords=the+spirituality+of+the+cross

http://www.amazon.com/Darwinism-Und...r=8-1&keywords=darwinism+under+the+microscope

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1416542744...TF8&colid=39HLFXDSWIRKG&coliid=I220V5HMBBNJ9E

http://www.amazon.com/Luthers-Catec...82804&sr=8-1&keywords=luthers+small+catechism

http://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-God-W...qid=1437582901&sr=8-1&keywords=pursuit+of+god

http://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christia...=1437583062&sr=8-1&keywords=mere+christianity

http://www.amazon.com/Cost-Disciple...3114&sr=8-1&keywords=the+cost+of+discipleship

 

[GracetotheHumble]

Look at it from my perspective. I cannot do so genuinely.

I'll be honest with you. I noticed the times when I began praying the most was when things went bad in my life. Maybe you need a crisis to happen in your life in order to draw you closer to God. If all else fails at least pray the Lord's prayer daily:

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

But, what makes a good church? Isn't your idea of a good church going to be too wishy washy or too severe to other Christians?

My idea of a good Church is one that preaches and follows the word of God accurately and administers the sacraments. From my experience (which is a lot) the best denomination is the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS). Here is a link to their church locator if you'd like to find one of their congregations:

http://locator.lcms.org/nchurches_frm/church.asp

If you want a church that is more contemporary versus a traditional church then Calvary Chapel is also good option. Here is their church locator:

http://calvarychapel.com/church-locator/

 

[GracetotheHumble]

God bless you brother. Please let me know if I can help you in any way.

 

[seashale76]

I'm trying. But I can't help but find the claims in the Bible and by Christians. I seem to think differently than religious people.

I also have issues with Christians themselves. My experience with them tends to hold me back.

Thoughts? Advice?

Confession time. There was a time when I went out and read many of the popular books that attempt to convince people that God is real. None of that convinced me of anything. However, I did envy people who seemed to be peaceful in their faith. I read a lot of holy books of various faiths, and I also read a lot of books regarding Christian history and theology just out of personal interest. I loved the concept of Jesus Christ but was 100% convinced that I was through with Christianity. I had a lot of bad experiences, hurt and disdain going on. My husband was right there with me along with all of our siblings, their spouses, cousins and their spouses, and many of our friends (in fact- my husband and I are among the few of our friends and family that are Christians these days).

Anyway, being the complete 'doing things for cultural experiences and academic interest' person that I can annoyingly be, I convinced my husband to go visit an Orthodox church with me on a whim. It was just for the heck of it, really. Actually, the first Sunday I wanted to go visit, we wound up not going because my personal hang-ups with church got in the way. We went out for coffee instead. However, the next Sunday we made it there.

I was endlessly fascinated. The atmosphere was peaceful and there was something there that kept making me want to keep going back every week. I still wasn't at all sure what I believed during this time. One week we came quite late- so late they were serving communion. I walked in the door and froze. It was like getting hit with a spiritual 2x4 and I knew I had to convert.

So, I'm a Christian because I had an experience (that my words aren't doing justice to at all). This is not an easy thing to explain. It was this sudden knowing and it felt like all of my doubts, et cetera were answered. Now, unlike other Christian groups, the Orthodox don't immediately jump down your throat trying to convert you to anything. They figure the liturgy will speak for itself. I guess it did in my case.

You've said you have difficulty attempting prayer. I get that. For a concept that is fairly simple it is actually one of the most difficult things I still struggle with doing in practice. Anyway, I don't know if anything I wrote here will be at all helpful to you, but there it is.

 

[aiki]

I'm trying. But I can't help but find the claims in the Bible and by Christians. I seem to think differently than religious people.

I also have issues with Christians themselves. My experience with them tends to hold me back.

Thoughts? Advice?

The Bible teaches very clearly that we cannot find God unless He first draws us and reveals Himself to us. Being a Christian is not at bottom about facts, and arguments, and making God perfectly accessible to our minds. He is GOD and will always be largely beyond what we can comprehend. God cannot be confined by our science, and philosophy, and our mundane, human experience and until you accept this, He will remain obscure to you.

Isaiah 55:7-9
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Just like you, no Christian is perfect. They are sinners saved by God's grace and struggle with their carnal humanness perhaps more after they are saved than before; for it is only after they are saved that they realize that a struggle is necessary. In any case, being a Christian is about being a disciple of Christ, not about being a disciple of other Christ-followers. Jesus is the one with whom you have to do, and he is eminently qualified to lead you.

Selah.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

The Bible teaches very clearly that we cannot find God unless He first draws us and reveals Himself to us. Being a Christian is not at bottom about facts, and arguments, and making God perfectly accessible to our minds. He is GOD and will always be largely beyond what we can comprehend. God cannot be confined by our science, and philosophy, and our mundane, human experience and until you accept this, He will remain obscure to you.

Isaiah 55:7-9
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Just like you, no Christian is perfect. They are sinners saved by God's grace and struggle with their carnal humanness perhaps more after they are saved than before; for it is only after they are saved that they realize that a struggle is necessary. In any case, being a Christian is about being a disciple of Christ, not about being a disciple of other Christ-followers. Jesus is the one with whom you have to do, and he is eminently qualified to lead you.

Selah.

Excellent Post!

 

[lesliedellow]

Parting the Red Sea comes to mind. The Eden story. The flood. Even Jesus walking on water, or the virgin birth.

I don't even try to read the early chapters of Genesis literally, and neither do the vast majority of Christians outside of the USA. As for the miracle stories, such is the prestige of the physical sciences that, unless they give us permission to believe something, we are reluctant to believe it. Nevertheless, an omnipotent God cannot be constrained by the physical laws he is the author of. That is easy to say, and the chances are that it will not immediately make it any easier to believe that miracles might be possible, but over time (probably measured in years) it will become easier to accept that, unlike us, an omnipotent God can do as he pleases.

Before I became a Christian I was none too enamored with the breed. I got the impression that, if one of them succeeded in converting me, I would be just one more notch on their gun belt, and they seemed to have major hang ups about sex. But it didn't take me long to discover that they are not all like that.

 

[JGG]

The Bible teaches very clearly that we cannot find God unless He first draws us and reveals Himself to us.

Does that mean I just wait? I've just started C.S. Lewis, and in the preface he says to seek God, and not to wait.

Being a Christian is not at bottom about facts, and arguments, and making God perfectly accessible to our minds. He is GOD and will always be largely beyond what we can comprehend. God cannot be confined by our science, and philosophy, and our mundane, human experience and until you accept this, He will remain obscure to you.

But if we cannot comprehend God then won't He always be obscure? This is problematic.

Isaiah 55:7-9
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Just like you, no Christian is perfect. They are sinners saved by God's grace and struggle with their carnal humanness perhaps more after they are saved than before; for it is only after they are saved that they realize that a struggle is necessary. In any case, being a Christian is about being a disciple of Christ, not about being a disciple of other Christ-followers. Jesus is the one with whom you have to do, and he is eminently qualified to lead you.

Perhaps. But He does not lead me. I'm searching and/or waiting.

 

[bling]

Maybe. But then there are so many things that God should find easy to do but seems to have trouble with. If God really wants me to believe in Him, it should be easy for Him to convince me.

Would God want everyone to “acknowledge” His existence and go on about their lives as if it really did not matter?

Many atheist and agnostics I have talked with would actually be upset to “know” the Christian God existed, because He is not a “god” they like, so it is better for them to live out their lives in ignorance.

If you had “knowledge” of God’s existence than you would not need faith in God’s existence, but that would be more harm than good for you. Trusting in the existence of a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity since the lowliest mature adult on earth can do the same and it is easy since every tree is evidence of God (if you accept the evidence).

Understanding man’s objective while here on earth can go a long way toward explaining why things happened the way they did happen, since it all goes back to the objective.

As far as your problem with “Christians”, there are a lot of hypocrites that call themselves Christians in the West. You could go to communist China and find lots of true Christians in the underground church, since severe persecution helps weed out all the hypocrites. You might do best to look for Christians unselfishly serving others during some tragedy, so you might need to go to a tragedy.

 

[aiki]

Does that mean I just wait? I've just started C.S. Lewis, and in the preface he says to seek God, and not to wait.

God meets those who are searching for Him. But no one searches for Him - I mean, really searches for Him - unless God has first worked in them to do so.

I don't know that searching for God in the writings of C.S.Lewis will bring you to Him. But it's a start. First and foremost, God is revealed to us in the pages of the Bible. Maybe while you're reading Lewis, you might also read the Gospel of John.

But if we cannot comprehend God then won't He always be obscure? This is problematic.

Does it not seem...strange to you to think that you ought to be able to understand God completely? Wouldn't you have to be God yourself in order to do so? God has shared with us all we need to know about Him in His Word. What He has not deigned to share with us we must trust is not essential to relating with Him.

Perhaps. But He does not lead me. I'm searching and/or waiting.

As we all were before we met Jesus. God has His own timing for things. He sees our heart far more clearly than we do. He knows when we are truly ready to know and submit to Him.

Selah.

 

[JGG]

Would God want everyone to “acknowledge” His existence and go on about their lives as if it really did not matter?

Many atheist and agnostics I have talked with would actually be upset to “know” the Christian God existed, because He is not a “god” they like, so it is better for them to live out their lives in ignorance.

Well, yes. That's understandable. I'm sure many people -atheists, agnostics, Jews, Buddhists, and other Christians- do not like your particular vision of God, just as you undoubtedly do not like the concept of God put forth by Islam, the Mormons, or pretty much every other religion. Am I wrong?

If you had “knowledge” of God’s existence than you would not need faith in God’s existence, but that would be more harm than good for you. Trusting in the existence of a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity since the lowliest mature adult on earth can do the same and it is easy since every tree is evidence of God (if you accept the evidence).

Knowledge would be great. How do I get faith? The only thing I can say is that I am not prepared to humble myself before someone unless they can explain to me why their knowledge of God is better than mine, or someone else's. So I'm asking how to find my own.

Understanding man’s objective while here on earth can go a long way toward explaining why things happened the way they did happen, since it all goes back to the objective.

What is man's objective?

As far as your problem with “Christians”, there are a lot of hypocrites that call themselves Christians in the West. You could go to communist China and find lots of true Christians in the underground church, since severe persecution helps weed out all the hypocrites. You might do best to look for Christians unselfishly serving others during some tragedy, so you might need to go to a tragedy.

I'm not sure what to make of this. I was able to volunteer in disaster relief efforts outside Nepal earlier this year. I do not know if I met Christians, but I know I met plenty of compassionate non-Christians selflessly helping others. I have also been involved in sponsoring a Chinese Christian in getting a visa in my community several years ago. She was a wonderful person, quite inspiring, but her faith was quite different from anything I've experienced from other Christians. I suspect you would not count her among your ranks, as her concept of Christ is quite unusual.

 

[JGG]

God meets those who are searching for Him. But no one searches for Him - I mean, really searches for Him - unless God has first worked in them to do so.

I don't know that searching for God in the writings of C.S.Lewis will bring you to Him. But it's a start. First and foremost, God is revealed to us in the pages of the Bible. Maybe while you're reading Lewis, you might also read the Gospel of John.

I can re-read John. Thanks.

Does it not seem...strange to you to think that you ought to be able to understand God completely?

I was responding to your claim: "God cannot be confined by our science, and philosophy, and our mundane, human experience and until you accept this, He will remain obscure to you."

This suggests that if I do accept this (and reject science, philosophy and human experience), that God will be un-obscured. So yes, it does seem odd, but I felt that that was exactly what you were suggesting.

Wouldn't you have to be God yourself in order to do so? God has shared with us all we need to know about Him in His Word. What He has not deigned to share with us we must trust is not essential to relating with Him.

I have to disagree. God has not shared with me all I need to know about Him. God has shared precious little with me.

As we all were before we met Jesus. God has His own timing for things. He sees our heart far more clearly than we do. He knows when we are truly ready to know and submit to Him.

How do I do that without bowing down to other people?