[moved from American Politics] Ohio House approves abortion ban after heartbeat

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m9lc

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You can believe both are wrong, sure. There is absolutely no contradiction there.

But once you begin to act on what turn out to be diverging goals priorities get assigned.

I've pointed out that pro-life organizations are not pursuing the goal of preventing abortions very effectively. You have said that they are unwilling to be effective because they refuse to abandon their opposition to premarital sex.

If that's true then their stated goals are a lie. I'll grant that they probably honestly don't like abortions very much, I don't think anyone does, but according to you premarital sex is even more abhorrent to them. So if some babies have to get aborted to terrorize kids into not having sex, so be it.

If that's what it takes that's what it takes? Acceptable losses?

I don't see how that's any better than their real motivation being misogyny.

Eh, it's just a matter of whether you think it is right to do something that you find morally wrong in order to prevent further morally wrong things down the line. It reminds me of the trolley problem, which is generally considered a moral gray area: Trolley problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So yeah, you can argue with them about the morality of abstinence-only education. But it seems that you have conceded your original argument that they are "at large" misogynists, so I suppose my work is done.
 
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The Paul

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Babies are punishment, pregnancies are sacrifices. :doh:

What is that supposed to mean?

I never described babies as a punishment. "Babies are a punishment" has nothing to do with anything I said.

I did imply pregnancy is a sacrifice. It involves an awful lot of physiological and psychological stress. Enough to be potentially life-threatening. Would you like to make that case that it does not involve some kind of sacrifice?
 
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drstevej

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When the census takes place, do you count if your wife/you are pregnant? What about taxes, do you include any "unborn" children? Why or why not?


Hey I count our dogs in the census. Gotta balance out the ACORN Fraud.
As to taxes, I don't know the birth date yet and the neanderthal law code does not respect life in or out of the womb.
 
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The Paul

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Eh, it's just a matter of whether you think it is right to do something that you find morally wrong in order to prevent further morally wrong things down the line. It reminds me of the trolley problem, which is generally considered a moral gray area: Trolley problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So yeah, you can argue with them about the morality of abstinence-only education. But it seems that you have conceded your original argument that they are "at large" misogynists, so I suppose my work is done.

The trolley problem is a neat mental construct for debating what is or isn't right in a vacuum, for its own sake, disconnected from any real-life consequences.

We can do whatever we like with the trolley. The men killed or saved by how we direct it don't exist.

The pro-life movement is a real thing that actually exists.

In the real world, there are consequences. Every action's equal and opposite reaction and such. If a person says, "I will never compromise my moral stance on premarital sex in order to minimize abortion," there is a corollary: "I will compromise my stance on abortion to minimize premarital sex."

I really don't like the idea of an abortion, but I like the idea of forcing someone to carry a child they don't want to term and give birth even less.

You haven't really convinced me the pro-life movement isn't misogynistic, just distracted me by giving me an argument much easier to make, really.

Honestly, I've seen quite a bit of rhetoric against any form of birth control, period. From mailings or ads by pro-life groups, from people participating in discussions like this one. A lot of talk about how sex is for procreation only.

Granted not all of that is legitimate misogyny. Some of it is nonsense about "playing God," from people who apparently believe their god is no more powerful than a condom.

But in the face of that kind of thing it doesn't look like the real problem the person speaking has with abortion is that it's taking a human life. It looks like their real problem is that it's allowing a woman to do something other than be "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen," as they say.

Put another way, abortion is one of several things they hate because it gives a woman the power to choose not to be pregnant. It's not the most significant one, but its the one easiest to attack.
 
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MachZer0

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What is that supposed to mean?

I never described babies as a punishment. "Babies are a punishment" has nothing to do with anything I said.

I did imply pregnancy is a sacrifice. It involves an awful lot of physiological and psychological stress. Enough to be potentially life-threatening. Would you like to make that case that it does not involve some kind of sacrifice?
Funny how some will pay thousands and thousands of dollars for the opportunity tomake that dreadful sacrifice
 
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The Paul

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Funny how some will pay thousands and thousands of dollars for the opportunity tomake that dreadful sacrifice

No.

People make sacrifices to get things they want.

Lots (most?) of women are willing to endure pregnancy because they want to have a child.

Some women are willing to give up thousands of dollars and endure pregnancy because they want to have a child.

Do you want to make an argument pregnancy does not involve a sacrifice?
 
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MachZer0

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No.

People make sacrifices to get things they want.

Lots (most?) of women are willing to endure pregnancy because they want to have a child.

Some women are willing to give up thousands of dollars and endure pregnancy because they want to have a child.

Do you want to make an argument pregnancy does not involve a sacrifice?
If there's a sacrifice to be made, it should be made before getting pregnant
 
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The Paul

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Do you want to make an argument pregnancy does not involve a sacrifice?
If there's a sacrifice to be made, it should be made before getting pregnant
So... no.

So we've got this:

Here's the thing: In the real world men can't get pregnant.

There is only one scenario we even contemplate in which a person would be legally obligated to make a sacrifice in terms of their own physical health and well-being in order to ensure the survival of another human.

It is impossible for a man to find himself in that situation.

Babies are punishment, pregnancies are sacrifices.
doh.gif

But I never said anything about babies being a punishment and you don't want to argue against the implication that pregnancy involves a sacrifice.

What's up with that?
 
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Umaro

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Then just as a person who has a potential to recover from the state they are in has the right to live, why would you think that an unborn child does not have that same right when they will also "gain consciousness" at birth? They are not in a permanent vegetative state.

IN Christ, GB

If there's a sacrifice to be made, it should be made before getting pregnant

Sex using a condom is a sacrifice, you shouldn't be forced to make additional sacrifices if it breaks.
 
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MachZer0

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So... no.

So we've got this:





But I never said anything about babies being a punishment and you don't want to argue against the implication that pregnancy involves a sacrifice.

What's up with that?
I never said you did. that was an Obama quote
 
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blancheer

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Yes, there are some women who pays a thousand and sometimes a million dollar just to have a child. Just looking into this makes me think that they are so unfortunate in having a child while others are making an abortion. What an ironic world.
When i read the news about the bans of abortion in Ohio, I'm kinda' happy about it. It says that last wednesday Ohio Governor John Kasich (R) signed into legislation a bill prohibiting the abortion of any viable fetus after 20 weeks. Ohio turns into only probably the most recent of various states to ban late-term abortions. The ban ignores federal rulings under Roe v. Wade. I found that here, try to read this too: Ohio bans late term abortions
 
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blancheer

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That's not right in killing a baby without a good reason. So i agreed to what the Ohio governor did in his state. It says that Governor John Kasich (R) signed a brand new abortion bill into law last Wednesday. That new law bans the abortion of any viable fetus after 20 weeks. Ohio turns into only probably the most recent of various states to ban late-term abortions. The ban disregards federal rulings under Roe v. Wade. Here is the proof:[url=http://www.newsytype.com/9222-ohio-bans-abortions/]Ohio bans late term
abortions[/url]
 
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Umaro

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You saying it doesn't make it so, but it does make killing the baby easier

And your saying it is a baby doesn't make it one either. But like I said before, why don't we just separate the mother and fetus without killing it? Then the mother doesn't have to make a sacrifice, and the fetus is free to become a baby without burdening anyone.
 
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