MOVED Controversial Bible massacre game

JohnClay

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Your OP is about a game. The game might challenge the Christian faith and provoke defenses; the thread does not. Maybe Ethics and Morality (of making such a game) or the Kitchen Sink for random-ish topics.
I wanted to put this where I could get a lot of people to seriously look into the theology/accuracy of my game. I was wondering if you have any opinion about my game other than just saying that this is in the wrong forum.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I wanted to put this where I could get a lot of people to seriously look into the theology/accuracy of my game. I was wondering if you have any opinion about my game other than just saying that this is in the wrong forum.
Those other 2 forums would have gotten you visibility (particularly E&M). I am not a moderator, so pay me no mind. I have no opinion on your game except that it doesn't strike me as fun. But, I am not a gamer.
 
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JohnClay

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Those other 2 forums would have gotten you visibility (particularly E&M).
The game's "player experience goal" is to shock (and overwhelm). I'm not interested in having a deep discussion as to whether these things are ethical.

I am not a moderator, so pay me no mind. I have no opinion on your game except that it doesn't strike me as fun. But, I am not a gamer.
I was looking for an opinion on the theology. It is purposely not meant to be fun in a typical way. People are meant to experience a sense of repulsion at the goals.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I wanted to put this where I could get a lot of people to seriously look into the theology/accuracy of my game. I was wondering if you have any opinion about my game other than just saying that this is in the wrong forum.

So, overall, what benefit do you think your game offers to those who will be playing it (in class)?
 
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JohnClay

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So, overall, what benefit do you think your game offers to those who will be playing it (in class)?

Serious issue: To learn about some of the most shocking passages in the Old Testament.

Then maybe that involve them having a more mature faith.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Serious issue: To learn about some of the most shocking passages in the Old Testament.

Then maybe that involve them having a more mature faith.

Perhaps. But I would think spiritual maturity that is to be brought about in such a game would involve 'more than' just having an awareness of some 'shocking' things in the Bible. One would also need to understand why those things may be in the Bible, what they mean, and what they may imply or say about God, or human nature, or about the intricacies of the hermeneutical processes that have to be applied in understanding any human communication, whether written or spoken, all so that the intent of the Bible can 'edify' the reader, helping him/her to be a better, more mature religious person.

Is your game going to provide 'shock value' with these goals in mind?
 
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JohnClay

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Perhaps. But I would think spiritual maturity that is to be brought about in such a game would involve 'more than' just having an awareness of some 'shocking' things in the Bible. One would also need to understand why those things may be in the Bible, what they mean, and what they may imply or say about God, or human nature, or about the intricacies of the hermeneutical processes that have to be applied in understanding any human communication, whether written or spoken, all so that the intent of the Bible can 'edify' the reader, helping him/her to be a better, more mature religious person.

Is your game going to provide 'shock value' with these goals in mind?
Well I'm going to have the Bible verses listed there so if people are interested in finding out more they can look at their Bible and also do internet searches for apologetics. Note that the game would probably only take about 20-40 hours to make at the most... I guess that's why my lecturer thought I should have a smaller scope.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well I'm going to have the Bible verses listed there so if people are interested in finding out more they can look at their Bible and also do internet searches for apologetics. Note that the game would probably only take about 20-40 hours to make at the most... I guess that's why my lecturer thought I should have a smaller scope.

Well, talk to your teacher some more and maybe mention to him or her the things that I said. See what he/she says. Good luck on creating your game, John! I'm sure it'll be interesting for the other students to play once it's done.
 
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John Helpher

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Player experience goal: The player will feel shocked and overwhelmed

Serious purpose: to learn about some of the most shocking passages in the Old Testament.

Target audience: open-minded people who want to learn about controversial parts in the Bible.

If what you really want is for open minded people to learn about controversy in the Bible, it would be more appropriate to design the game from God's perspective.

For example, you could start with a single scenario; the flood which destroyed nearly all life on earth. You (the player) are God and the variables are set up; you've got a list of objectives you need to achieve with your humans but you're working at a disadvantage as the humans are stubborn, proud greedy etc; they have a strong resistance to your guidance and lots of other problems. The goal is to figure out some way to make them do what you want, (within the in-built guidelines of the game), before the flood happens. You can't force them to behave the way you want, since that would essentially invalidate any point to the game.

There should be a host of built-in variables for the humans like greed, fear, pride, self-righteousness etc which rise or fall according to circumstances in the game (like discovering new raw materials, formation of governing bodies, herd mentality vs individual expression, or any number of factors) and the player, as God, must learn to deal with those issues.

If the problem variables rise too high, or beyond some threshold, then they get wiped out as a consequence, which means the player, as God, must work to keep those variables low. The player can dish out punishments or rewards with benefits and consequences to each and see how those actions play out within the human ranks. The more the humans refuse to listen to you, the closer they move to destruction of some kind.

The lesson would illustrate just how difficult it can be to wield authority. People often think having power makes a job easy and therefore the more power you have the easier a job should be, but anyone who has ever tried to lead other humans (in any capacity) soon finds that just exercising power in itself isn't enough. If you are too kind the people take advantage of you. If you are too hard, they rebel. They have personal desires which often interfere with what is most rational or practical in any given situation.

This theme could be applied to any of the other scenarios listed. For example, with Elijah and the "youth" who harnessed him; you are God and Elijah is your messenger to the town. It's important that the towns people respect your representative or they'll be less likely to listen to him which will result in you not achieving your goals. In order to accurately recreate the scenario you'll need to do a fair bit of research on the circumstances behind the encounter, if that's what you're really interested in.

If, on the other hand, your goal is simply to shock people, then there's not much point in you asking for details as the less context the better. Context and motivation always has a way of explaining situations in a way that tends to make them less sensational to the imagination and more resistant to emotional bias.
 
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JohnClay

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If what you really want is for open minded people to learn about controversy in the Bible, it would be more appropriate to design the game from God's perspective.

For example, you could start with a single scenario; the flood which destroyed nearly all life on earth.
That isn't controversial - that story is told in books aimed at young children. On the other hand the things in the 5 levels aren't usually mentioned in church or Sunday school. I am planning on not having any blood, screaming or death - just animals/people disappearing... though the youths' bodies would still remain since they might still be alive - and the game engine can handle 42 bodies on screen - but not 144,000. Despite a lack of violence, I think it is still somewhat shocking.

You (the player) are God and the variables are set up;.....If you are too kind the people take advantage of you. If you are too hard, they rebel. They have personal desires which often interfere with what is most rational or practical in any given situation.
That sounds like a kids game.... so it isn't very controversial. My game will also be kind of a kids game (so that it can be shared on Scratch). Remember I only have 17 days left to finish the assignment. Besides making the game I also need to write 2000 words about the game mechanics and theoretical elements. I've already scrapped one idea.. it was a little game where you have to save kids from a fire. The lecturer said I had to base it more on fire safety. Many of the other students have 4 subjects to do instead of 1 though.

This theme could be applied to any of the other scenarios listed. For example, with Elijah and the "youth" who harnessed him;
Well if you had read my level descriptions carefully, you would have learnt that Elisha was involved.

you are God and Elijah is your messenger to the town. It's important that the towns people respect your representative or they'll be less likely to listen to him which will result in you not achieving your goals.
I thought being struck by lightning would be more merciful than being mauled by bears.

In order to accurately recreate the scenario you'll need to do a fair bit of research on the circumstances behind the encounter, if that's what you're really interested in.
Well in my game you are a bear and there are 42 youths and you just have to maul them all. It is like old-fashioned arcade games - they are simplistic. It is not meant to be a realistic simulator.

If, on the other hand, your goal is simply to shock people,
That's the main player experience goal. In my subject I learnt that any game can have its core focus summed up in a few words like that.

then there's not much point in you asking for details as the less context the better.
Well it is like having a game that recreates Hiroshima... telling the player a justification of the bombing might not be relevant to the game play.

Context and motivation always has a way of explaining situations in a way that tends to make them less sensational to the imagination and more resistant to emotional bias.
Well I'm mentioning the Bible verses - people can investigate them if they are interested. I think situations like sacrificing 144,000 animals is sensational no matter how people try and explain it away...
 
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John Helpher

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Well it is like having a game that recreates Hiroshima... telling the player a justification of the bombing might not be relevant to the game play.

But, without a reason behind the behavior what is the point? Even with something like shock value, there needs to be a reason why we think it is shocking.

For example, a man used a baseball bat to beat his neighbors dog to death; it took a long time and looked very painful for the dog. Maybe it was animal cruelty? Shocking, right? The context is that the neighbors dog was attacking a kid and the man was trying to save the kid.

Or, how about a man who roams through a building cutting off arms and legs, and ripping out hearts and other organs from living bodies? He's a doctor.

When attempting to understand why God cursed Egypt with a multitude of plagues which killed thousands, it's important to understand that Pharaoh agreed to god's demands several times (like 6 or 7 times) in order for God to relent of the plagues, only to then renege on his agreement and then face another plague from God. This makes it clear that Pharaoh was the one perpetuating the problems in Egypt with his stubbornness. That's an important consideration.

Even in human courts of law we have professionals who's job it is to present the full facts of the case for consideration, even when the details of the case are shocking. If defense lawyers or prosecutors deliberately ignore important information regarding motivations and context, they would be breaking the law precisely because such details are so critically important for arriving at a right (or just) understanding of events. If a stalker attacked the same victim 6 times and was finally shot to death by police on the 6th confrontation, it would be misleading to only present the information that the police shot a man to death. Shocking, yes, but fundamentally misleading.

If your game deliberately ignores relevant information, then you're not designing something to shock people, but rather using shock to mislead people.
 
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JohnClay

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But, without a reason behind the behavior what is the point? Even with something like shock value, there needs to be a reason why we think it is shocking.
The Hiroshima game's message could be that it was a barbaric situation that should never happen again. (though many might disagree)

....If your game deliberately ignores relevant information, then you're not designing something to shock people, but rather using shock to mislead people.
In the 5 level descriptions I gave, what relevant information am I leaving out? I never claimed any of the situations are immoral - many players might jump to that conclusion though (unless they're strong Christians). I do have a message at the end that says "Good Job!!!" I guess some of the information I'm leaving out are the screams, people pleading for their lives, severed heads and limbs, blood, etc.
 
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John Helpher

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I guess some of the information I'm leaving out are the screams, people pleading for their lives, severed heads and limbs, blood, etc.

No, the important information you're leaving out is why these things happen. If you were in the opposite situation where you were accused of something, but the information regarding why you behaved the way you did (which would give your behavior reason and context which could exonerate you) was deliberately being left out for the sake of shock value, I think you would see the point more clearly.

many players might jump to that conclusion though (unless they're strong Christians).

Yes, that tends to happen when the facts are ignored for shock value; it's not that people could jump to conclusions, but rather they are likely to jump to conclusions, especially with controversial, shocking information. I dare say that is precisely why you are so reluctant to include all the facts; you want people jumping to conclusions, and as per your comments regarding shock value, the worse conclusions they jump to the more successful your game will be.
 
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JohnClay

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No, the important information you're leaving out is why these things happen.
I think my level descriptions give sufficient information - e.g. the 144,000 animals need to be slaughtered for a sacrifice in King Solomon's name. The youths teased a prophet and he cursed them, etc. Since I say "Good Job!" in the end that the player might assume that these massacres are justified. The "shock" goal is to do with the insane numbers involved.

If you were in the opposite situation where you were accused of something, but the information regarding why you behaved the way you did (which would give your behavior reason and context which could exonerate you) was deliberately being left out for the sake of shock value, I think you would see the point more clearly.
Like I said, I think I give the context quite well. I include Bible verses to help people in their own investigations of these passages that are normally ignored.

Yes, that tends to happen when the facts are ignored for shock value;
I think the shock involved is involved with the large numbers involved in the massacres.... and for the "kill everything that breathes" I think I also gave it a reasonable context (that they'd leave the Jews astray). I think that's what makes it truly shocking - that many of these were commanded by God - rather than people being able to blame the devil.

it's not that people could jump to conclusions, but rather they are likely to jump to conclusions, especially with controversial, shocking information.
I suspect that non-Christians would have already had some negative ideas about God, and Christians would assume that all of these events can be explained away - though still might feel a bit shocked.

I dare say that is precisely why you are so reluctant to include all the facts;
I think I do have all of the basic facts. In my 5 level descriptions, what facts are missing that are essential? Note it is meant to play as a simplistic arcade game.

you want people jumping to conclusions, and as per your comments regarding shock value, the worse conclusions they jump to the more successful your game will be.
No I want the initial exposure to cause people to find it surprising that those are events in the Bible that are often commanded by God (or involves God's people). My long term goal is just that they learn about ignored parts of the Bible and that people learn about God's misunderstood side. Though many Christians would say that God is just mysterious and his justice is hard to understand for mere mortals, etc?
 
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JohnClay

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BTW for the killing of 1000 and 144,000 animals, I'm not sure who the player character would be.... maybe a priest?
Hi I didn't seem to get a reply.... for now I'm going to make the killer be a priest....
 
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JohnClay

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Now when the first level begins, a childish voice says "Get out of here baldy!" (though in the NIV it is said twice) then a man's voice says "maul 42 youths for teasing a prophet" So I think that provides a lot of context...

For the 5th level the voice is somewhat controversial "cleanse the promised land!"
 
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JohnClay

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This is not a topic for Christian Apologetics.
Hi I am planning on creating a topic in the kitchen sink where people can discuss their playtesting. I need to have people playtest it as part of my assessment. This thread can involve in depth theological aspects.
 
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