[MOVED]Christians; why are you a Christian? Instead of..?

[TillICollapse]

cont ...

I rolled my window down, he said something to the effect of, "Sorry to interrupt your lunch or break, but would you mind jump starting my car ? I have the cables, all I need you to do is jump it .."

The whole time he's talking, he's smiling, with a smile of "I know something you don't" type of smile.

I agreed to help him, and so I backed out of my spot and pulled in closer to him, popping the hood.

I got out to help him, but he actually just brought up my hood by himself, and attached the cables rather quickly. As I'm standing there, I look at his car:

ALL over his car's back and rear, are bumper stickers … like, maybe a hundred or so. I mean it's basically covering the back side of the car. All these bumper stickers are basically saying quick, short quotes: "Trust God" "Jesus Loves" "Trust God" "Believe" etc. Very basic quotes.

At this I smile, I look at him, he's still smiling at me, and I think, "Okay … if this is actually yet another angel, I need to ask him right now, straight up, are you an angel …."

And as I started to ask him, it's like … I couldn't. I couldn't speak. I couldn't get words out. I just stood there, looking at him. I felt dumb, but then it was like … I wasn't supposed to ask. I was just supposed to EXPERIENCE. To go with it. Not question just yet, but let whatever was going on speak for itself. This seems like a cop out, even to me, but that's what I experienced … my tongue was tied, and I actually believed I WASNT supposed to ask him, "Are you an angel ? Is this an answer to the prayer I literally just prayed ?" Again, this sounds like a cop out even to me, but that's what I experienced.

He finished up, thanked me, closed up the hoods, and drove off.

At that, I was even more overwhelmed. I had just prayed, "Are angels everywhere ? All around us ?" and immediately that was perhaps the answer ? That they were literally around us like that ? Simple as that ? No need to travel over land and sea … just go into a grocery store ? Pull into a McDonalds ? For some reason, this idea terrorized me … the idea that it wasn't rare to see them, rather, it was common and we were just oblivious or "out of the loop". Maybe we were involved in all the wrong things to where we simply NEVER came into contact with them, because we weren't involved in what they were involved in. This idea actually made me nervous and almost feeling like failure … as though there was an entire side to life that I had thought was more mysterious and full of mystique and "for a few" … but in actuality was all around me, but I wasn't a part of it as I had maybe thought.

That's the second account. Now for the third, and then I'll stop for now lol. A lot of typing:

Back around 1996, I had just gotten out of the US Navy ( I went to the US Naval Academy, actually). While in the Navy, I had a sort of epiphany moment. This was before I was knee deep in any religion, etc … yet I believed in "God". My belief was vague, but was based on what I would call "faith". I believed there was a "supernatural" entity that existed, that responded to "God". I had an experience when I was younger and had run away from home, that completely changed the way I viewed reality (during that experience, I experienced being translocated from one location to another instantaneously. It's a long story). So anyways, I believed in "God" in some form. And while I was in my final days in the Navy, I had a sort of epiphany. While at the Academy, I was basically almost a poster child for it … I excelled, I was in love with the environment, the opportunities, etc. The pressure was something I expected, I thrived. Yet one night, believe it or not, I began to see what I can only describe as a sort of "spiritual haze". This "haze" seemed to cover everyone and everything around me … and it seemed as though it blanketed everything in "fear". I described it as "fear". I began to see people just covered by "fear". It was unnerving. I wasn't the type of person who had a lot of respect for fear or those who were afraid … and so it was like seeing something I loved and was in love with, suddenly stripped down and made naked before me. What I saw all around me, was "fear" …

And somehow I knew, that I was "playing for the wrong team" as it were. I was doing something, that involved this fear. So after seeing this "haze" I found a chapel, where I could be alone … and I prayed to "God", and I told God that I didn't want to be involved with the wrong team. I wanted to play for the "right team", whatever that meant. And I prayed to God to protect me and whatever it took, to make sure I was a soldier for him, not for anything else. It was sort of an epiphany for me at the time … a mystical type of experience, but it was very real, this "haze" and this realization I was having.

When I left, I had this idea within me … that I was going to go and "find God", and even though it sounded insane, I knew where I was going to go find Him lol:

When I was a boy, my parents had taken me on a vacation to the desert of West Texas. My father grew up in Japan as well as Arizona, and so he had a love of the desert and they took me there on a vacation … to hike, see the wild life, etc. I fell in love with the desert as well at that time, so much so that when I returned, I was obsessed with it … I drew desert animals all over my walls lol, began to collect related items (Native American things, even some skulls for decor, etc). So anyways, when I got out and was going to go "find God" … I knew I was going to go to the desert of West Texas to find Him.

It sounded insane to everyone I knew. I was extremely intelligent, had a bright future, the Academy was a choice amongst Ivy Leagues schools that I had, I played football even, etc … yet here I was, claiming I was going to "go to the desert to see God" … it's like I was being drawn and pulled. It filled my mind, my being, I couldn't ignore it. It was like I was being … called to do it. To fight it would have taken effort. And it seemed insane, my father was an atheist/agnostic. I wasn't raised in an environment that promoted anything of the sort. No one supported what I was claiming, etc. Even the few friends I had who were believers, said I was crazy. "That's not God". etc and so forth. But I was one to consider the input of others, but ultimately I would think for myself and make decisions that I wanted to make … and I wasn't shy from an adventure. And I remembered my epiphany type of experience, my night of clarity where I saw that haze and had this belief that I was on the "wrong team", and praying to God and what I asked of God.

So I was going to go to the desert, one way or another … and my plan was simple: get a bus ticket to the nearest desert town that bordered the Big Bend area of West Texas near the Mexican border, and literally, just start walking out into the desert. Just … walk. Until I was all alone, no one around, nothing, must me and the elements. Either I found "God", or I didn't and perhaps I even died there in the desert. I wasn't afraid.

And so I did that … I bought a bus ticket to a small town about 100 miles north of that area, and my plan was to get off the bus, buy a gallon of water, have a few knives on me for protection from wild animals, and just … walk. "Find God" or else.

This is where this part of the story refers back to the point:

 

[TillICollapse]

Last cont post ...

On the bus there, when I was about two hours or so from my final stop, it was getting on to sunset … and the bus was pretty empty. We made a stop in some town, where this guy gets on the bus, and sits somewhat near me. He was a shorter guy, maybe 5'5" or so, 40's, cowboy mustaches, cowboy clothes. He sits near me, and I stick out like a sore thumb. Military cut, still have my military ruck sack, I'm looking like I just stepped out of a Seahawk or something. I was pretty muscular and built (football). I don't fit in with the few other people on the bus. So anyways, he sits near me, and after awhile, strikes up a conversation with me.

It was fairly basic, asking me where I was coming from, about myself, where I was going, etc. We talked the entire way … and the entire time he talked to me, I was at ease. I had no reason to distrust him. He was polite, seemed genuinely interested in me. And I would ask him questions about himself, and he would say things like, "Well, in the town we're headed, I'm something like a mayor," or "I'm somewhat like the town preacher," or "I'm kind of like the town lawyer," etc. It was always, "Something like," and some office he held, or local position he held.

And he talked on and on about how he loved people … how much he cared about their well being, enjoyed their lives, etc.

In the course of our talking, I told him I didn't have a place to stay, and he said that he owned some property outside of the town we were headed to, and that if I wanted, there was a small house like dwelling that I could stay in if I wished, as long as I needed. I mean, he was just gracious. I thought about it, and told him I would accept his offer for at least a night, and then make my way out …I didn't tell him any of my specific plans, rather, I indicated to him I was going to go to the desert and be in nature for awhile, etc. Things like that. I didn't tell him, "I'm going to look for God," lol … I wasn't an idiot. I wasn't telling just anybody that.

By the way, as I remember it, his name, was David.

So when our bus arrived … I remember getting out of the bus, and getting my bag there in the dark. The next thing I remember, is being at the small house he mentioned … and falling to sleep on the floor, on a pillow, with a sleeping bag. I have no memory of how we got there, whether we drove, walked, whatever. I have no idea how we got there. I literally remember getting out of the bus and getting my bag, and then the next thing I know, being in a dark room and laying down to fall asleep. Almost as though I was drugged (but I don't think I was drugged).

When I awoke, it was morning. I slept like a baby. And in the room next to me, there he was, cooking oatmeal. He told me good morning, said he had breakfast. I remember him saying, "It's not much, just a cowboy breakfast," and then he told me he needed to go out, but that I was welcome to stay as long as I wanted. He finished cooking, and literally, just walked out the front door.

I went over to the pot of oatmeal, had some food, sat and relaxed. That's when I realized, that when he left, I hadn't heard any car drive off or anything. I just heard him walk off. So I decided to get up and go outside and see what the outside looked like.

As I went outside, I saw that our little "house" was like a small adobe type condo. Two room, in a small area where there were like two other similar buildings. No cars anywhere, no signs of life or signs that anyone had been living there. We were nestled at the base of a few mountains, and off a bit in the distance was a main road. And David was nowhere to be found. No trace of where he went, how we went there, nothing. I was literally there, all alone.

I went back inside, ate some more, and thought about my next move. I decided to find some paper and pen and write a thank you note, and then to close the door behind me and continue on my quest to "find God". I was a bit perplexed about how David just left the building without any transpiration it seemed, or how we even got there … but nevertheless, I was on a mission, and I was going to continue with it. So I got my bag, found some paper and pen, left a note, and headed out.

I don't know how I knew which direction to go on the main road once I hit it, but I did … I took the road, walking, back into town. Took me maybe an hour or so ? I walked back into the small town, and went to find a store to buy some water and get going on my journey. See, from the town to the edge of Big Bend proper, there was literally a 101 miles stretch of road that was basically nothing but road, nothing along it. So I had a 100 mile walk ahead of me, in the desert, with nothing in-between me and my "destination". So as I'm in town, getting water, I decide to ask about "David". I mean, he should be a fairly well known individual since he had all these tittles, owned land, etc, yes ?

No one had heard of him. Even my description of him, brought back zero. No one knew who this man was, or recognized his name, offices, nothing. It's as though David never existed.

Now, I'm not saying that I met "God" … however, years later, I put two and two together and it occurred to me, that I went to the desert to "find God", and before even arriving on what most people called my "insane" journey lol … I met a man on a bus, who claimed to have all these titles and authorities, provided shelter and food for me seemingly out of nowhere, disappeared, no one had heard of him, etc. And his name was "David". Some I've told that story too, say it was an angel. Of course some say it was just a helpful man, etc. I'm not dumb, I know the Occam's Razor explanations. But consider this: Jesus is known as the Son of God, yes ? But also, he is known as the son of another … David. The Son of David. Now I'm not saying that God is a physical being named David, I'm just saying. I went into the desert to "find God", and the first person I run into, is this David person who does all these things.

So anyways, there are three accounts … these actually aren't dramatic, I saved telling the dramatic ones. Wouldn't want to be too controversial.

 

[agua]

TillICollapse

Okay, here are some accounts, I'll try to include relevant details, although to include them all would take up a lot of text space. I'll include three examples, since they are all related anyways ...

Wow bloke that's some serious encounters there ! Can I ask why you related the third experience last ( ~1996 ) when it preceded the other 2 ? Of course you realise these accounts place you into the incredible box for nay sayers Thanks for sharing !

 

[TillICollapse]

Wow bloke that's some serious encounters there ! Can I ask why you related the third experience last ( ~1996 ) when it preceded the other 2 ?

I related the third one last because I was actually going to give a different third example that was related to the previous two, but instead changed my mind and went with the David story which just so happened to precede the other two chronologically instead. I suppose I could have moved it to the beginning, but I had already typed out all of that and so just kept it in the order in which I typed it. I kept those accounts "tame".

Of course you realise these accounts place you into the incredible box for nay sayers Thanks for sharing !

You're welcome ... and of course I realize the box those potentially place me in. I've already walked in my shoes for a few decades Most of the time I don't mind "nay sayers" lol or skeptical inquiry, I'm used to it, and I usually appreciate some of the different angles and questions that different minds can come up with the times people have questioned or examined my own experiences. In general, I'm not interested in convincing anyone of anything, or defending some opinion or even what I know to be "truth" ... I want to find more and more of the truth myself and those who are interested in that with me, I'm usually game. If we can't go through new doors and discover new things together, I get bored and generally find "talk" and "defending against nay saying" useless and pointless. I do get bored with people's lazy thinking though, I'll admit.

The type of nay saying that actually tends to bother me, comes from self professed "Christians" themselves, for me personally. I expect skeptical inquiry, or lack of belief in what I may even claim about what I experienced, from certain types of people. However I find it's the self professed Christians who are the most predatory and confrontational when it comes to trying to tell me how to view something, what to think about something, how I'm wrong, etc. I've been called everything under the sun by Christians. The manner in which they constantly claim "truths" on behalf of "God", which often contradict one another ... I rarely see what I would call a desire to learn and discover truth about God, angels, etc in reality. Instead, what I often get confronted with are people who tell me that my own experiences were impossible because it doesn't go in alignment with their own belief system they already think is true. They often talk as though they know something for a fact ... which directly contradicts my own experience. It's still heartbreaking for me, to be honest, to deal with this ... because I would love to find a group of people who actually want to know what is TRUE and also have the intellectual honesty and guts to go out and discover what is true concerning reality ... all of it ... not just the parts they want to believe is true, or are too intellectually lazy to actually think for themselves. I actually believe in Jesus ... though I've never physically met Him that I know of in the flesh, I believe I've experienced His Spirit before in specific ways. Interestingly, the times I experience this, I get the strongest reactions if it involves other Christians ... I've had some nasty things done towards me. So the nay sayers that typically bother me the most, are the Christians ... I keep expecting the way they use terms and words to align with my own experiences in reality, but they don't, and not only do they not, I've dealt with some pretty heavy stuff as a result.

 

[agua]

TillICollapse
....
I rarely see what I would call a desire to learn and discover truth about God, angels, etc in reality. Instead, what I often get confronted with are people who tell me that my own experiences were impossible because it doesn't go in alignment with their own belief system they already think is true.

The quote function is playing up on me again :/

Ok Bloke. Don't be too hard on the Christian critics because they mostly rely on what they've either been taught or experienced and this isn't any different than most other humans. Remember though Christians are usually constantlt on the lookout for false doctrines and false witness and false Christs and false everything else ( something most Atheists don't realise ) because Satan has a habit of trying to pervert christianity. That being said I rarely commit to trusting anyones testimony at face value, but neither do I dismiss them out of hand. This is very similar to my view of Darwin evolution theory.

I wonder though why you feel the urge to discover more truth when you seem to have already discovered the ultimate truth ? I'm guessing you may be quite young ? I'm not saying learning new stuff isn't great but maybe you should spend a bit of time in Ecclesiastes to understand where the pursuit of knowledge to the grandest scale can end up.

Also I'd like to suggest that at this point in human history spiritual warfare is at it's peak and that's where the "interested in knowledge" Christian's time is best spent, else it's all just vanity ( as Solomon will tell you I'm sure )

Have you noticed how far from the OP we've come

ETA I've taken a copy of your encounters for personal reference and in case I'm led to share them I hope you don't mind,

 

[TillICollapse]

The quote function is playing up on me again :/

Ok Bloke. Don't be too hard on the Christian critics because they mostly rely on what they've either been taught or experienced and this isn't any different than most other humans. Remember though Christians are usually constantlt on the lookout for false doctrines and false witness and false Christs and false everything else ( something most Atheists don't realise ) because Satan has a habit of trying to pervert christianity. That being said I rarely commit to trusting anyones testimony at face value, but neither do I dismiss them out of hand. This is very similar to my view of Darwin evolution theory.

I'll skip responding to this part directly for now, but I also didn't want to just snip this part of your response either ...

I wonder though why you feel the urge to discover more truth when you seem to have already discovered the ultimate truth ? I'm guessing you may be quite young ? I'm not saying learning new stuff isn't great but maybe you should spend a bit of time in Ecclesiastes to understand where the pursuit of knowledge to the grandest scale can end up.

I'm not that interested in the pursuit of knowledge for knowledge sake, rather I enjoy adventures and the opportunities to perhaps experience "the impossible" I find those aspects of existence amazing and beautiful.

The first time I actually believed I had experienced "proof of God", I thought I had discovered the "ultimate truth" lol, only to have more questions arise later. As is typical with life ... one door opens, several new areas to explore are presented. One question you may have personally answered for yourself, sometimes leads to more questions.

Plus, there are people whom I love and want to experience the ride with, giving it my all. I still have dreams I'd like to see realized as well.

Also, in my experience, experiencing "God" isn't an arrival point. It's more like a gateway.

I'm 38 btw. Don't know why you'd think I was young. I've been married twice, and around the block more times than I can remember.

Also I'd like to suggest that at this point in human history spiritual warfare is at it's peak and that's where the "interested in knowledge" Christian's time is best spent, else it's all just vanity ( as Solomon will tell you I'm sure )

I didn't include any stories that would delve into this topic in my above accounts. This is one of the reasons I'm not responding to the first part of your response

Have you noticed how far from the OP we've come

Good threads should do that, imo

ETA I've taken a copy of your encounters for personal reference and in case I'm led to share them I hope you don't mind,

I don't mind, that was the tip of the iceberg And thanks for telling me first and asking, I appreciate that

 

[agua]

I'll skip responding to this part directly for now, but I also didn't want to just snip this part of your response either ...

I'm not that interested in the pursuit of knowledge for knowledge sake, rather I enjoy adventures and the opportunities to perhaps experience "the impossible" I find those aspects of existence amazing and beautiful.

The first time I actually believed I had experienced "proof of God", I thought I had discovered the "ultimate truth" lol, only to have more questions arise later. As is typical with life ... one door opens, several new areas to explore are presented. One question you may have personally answered for yourself, sometimes leads to more questions.

Plus, there are people whom I love and want to experience the ride with, giving it my all. I still have dreams I'd like to see realized as well.

Also, in my experience, experiencing "God" isn't an arrival point. It's more like a gateway.

I'm 38 btw. Don't know why you'd think I was young. I've been married twice, and around the block more times than I can remember.

Quote function working again cool.

Hey I can't and won't fault your immediate reasoning or experiences or the reason you want to explore them. I will suggest you respond to me in 10 years or soo.... I hope you will. I still recommend a close study/read of Ecclesiastes and I suspect you'll understand why.

I didn't include any stories that would delve into this topic in my above accounts. This is one of the reasons I'm not responding to the first part of your response

Curious. Nothing surprises me ( that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the ecstasy of something new or exiting btw ); but I know there's a squillion things I haven't seen, heard of, experienced etc. Else what will eternity be for ?

I also know the modus operandi of Satan without experiencing every situation.

 

[TillICollapse]

The quote function is playing up on me again :/

Ok Bloke. Don't be too hard on the Christian critics because they mostly rely on what they've either been taught or experienced and this isn't any different than most other humans. Remember though Christians are usually constantlt on the lookout for false doctrines and false witness and false Christs and false everything else ( something most Atheists don't realise ) because Satan has a habit of trying to pervert christianity. That being said I rarely commit to trusting anyones testimony at face value, but neither do I dismiss them out of hand. This is very similar to my view of Darwin evolution theory.

I wonder though why you feel the urge to discover more truth when you seem to have already discovered the ultimate truth ? I'm guessing you may be quite young ? I'm not saying learning new stuff isn't great but maybe you should spend a bit of time in Ecclesiastes to understand where the pursuit of knowledge to the grandest scale can end up.

Also I'd like to suggest that at this point in human history spiritual warfare is at it's peak and that's where the "interested in knowledge" Christian's time is best spent, else it's all just vanity ( as Solomon will tell you I'm sure )

Have you noticed how far from the OP we've come

ETA I've taken a copy of your encounters for personal reference and in case I'm led to share them I hope you don't mind,

Instead of doing an ETA, I responded anew ...

This would massively derail, so I don't know if you'd want to start a new thread or just continue with derailing (and of course if you're not interested in giving your thoughts further, no worries of course, really, no worries at all, don't feel like you must) ... but I was going to ask you what your thoughts were on "spiritual warfare" ... be as detailed as you like. Give your model, etc and so forth

 

[TillICollapse]

Quote function working again cool.

Hey I can't and won't fault your immediate reasoning or experiences or the reason you want to explore them. I will suggest you respond to me in 10 years or soo.... I hope you will. I still recommend a close study/read of Ecclesiastes and I suspect you'll understand why.

Believe it or not, I read Ecclesiastes years ago and took away from it the "everything is meaningless, eat drink and be merry, nothing new under the sun, fear God and keep His commandments, don't overthink it, etc" ... as well as considering Solomon's own choices in life chasing after chicks and where that lead him down ... and I was there, right along side some of what I took away from Ecclesiastes at the time. But then that all changed. Perhaps I'll go down that road again, idk. I have little doubt ten years from now I'll look drastically different and be quite different as well. Hopefully I will be. Things change over time

Curious. Nothing surprises me ( that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the ecstasy of something new or exiting btw ); but I know there's a squillion things I haven't seen, heard of, experienced etc. Else what will eternity be for ?

Dude. Dude. Nothing surprises you ? This may come off as the first critical thing I've said concerning you personally, or even preachy ... but that makes me somewhat sad

I would say not very much SHOCKS me, but I still get surprised I've been in war zones, lived in 3rd world countries, can't remember how many times I've almost died in various insane situations, worked in emergency medicine for several years, yada yada ... I still get surprised It's a big world, dude. And an even bigger universe. Truly, it is. I would say to you, "You need to get out more," lol [/preachy]

I also know the modus operandi of Satan without experiencing every situation.

I posted my last post to you before seeing this post of yours here.

 

[agua]

Instead of doing an ETA, I responded anew ...

This would massively derail, so I don't know if you'd want to start a new thread or just continue with derailing (and of course if you're not interested in giving your thoughts further, no worries of course, really, no worries at all, don't feel like you must) ... but I was going to ask you what your thoughts were on "spiritual warfare" ... be as detailed as you like. Give your model, etc and so forth

Well the moderators have either not seen this thread or are ok with it so I'll respond here for now. It also gives us the chance of less static . Spiritual warfare is the constant battle going on between good and evil; Yahweh and Satan. It's rooted in the challenge to Yahweh's sovereignty that started when Satan rebelled and many Angels followed him.

It includes human vs human struggles, Angel vs Angel/Devil struggles, human vs Angel/Devil struggles etc. From here on I'll refer to evil Angels as Devils. Satan and his Devils want to destroy anyone that follows Yahweh and thwart/pervert that's leading to the culmination of Yahwehs' plans. There's million (?) of Spirit beings interacting right in front of our noses without us, mostly, being able to see or experience them. It's the most relevant thing effecting the future of every human.

That's it in a nutshell, really.

 

[TillICollapse]

Well the moderators have either not seen this thread or are ok with it so I'll respond here for now. It also gives us the chance of less static . Spiritual warfare is the constant battle going on between good and evil; Yahweh and Satan. It's rooted in the challenge to Yahweh's sovereignty that started when Satan rebelled and many Angels followed him.

It includes human vs human struggles, Angel vs Angel/Devil struggles, human vs Angel/Devil struggles etc. From here on I'll refer to evil Angels as Devils. Satan and his Devils want to destroy anyone that follows Yahweh and thwart/pervert that's leading to the culmination of Yahwehs' plans. There's million (?) of Spirit beings interacting right in front of our noses without us, mostly, being able to see or experience them. It's the most relevant thing effecting the future of every human.

That's it in a nutshell, really.

I'm prol gonna be off to sleep here in a bit ... next question, do you have any personal experience with the above mentioned things ?

Most likely, G'nite

 

[agua]

Believe it or not, I read Ecclesiastes years ago and took away from it the "everything is meaningless, eat drink and be merry, nothing new under the sun, fear God and keep His commandments, don't overthink it, etc" ... as well as considering Solomon's own choices in life chasing after chicks and where that lead him down ... and I was there, right along side some of what I took away from Ecclesiastes at the time. But then that all changed. Perhaps I'll go down that road again, idk. I have little doubt ten years from now I'll look drastically different and be quite different as well. Hopefully I will be. Things change over time

I'm not sure that I understand what you took away from Ecclesiastes, or if you understand it. Do you think Solomon was telling us to damn the torpedoes and live life to the full, in pleasures ?

Dude. Dude. Nothing surprises you ? This may come off as the first critical thing I've said concerning you personally, or even preachy ... but that makes me somewhat sad

I would say not very much SHOCKS me, but I still get surprised I've been in war zones, lived in 3rd world countries, can't remember how many times I've almost died in various insane situations, worked in emergency medicine for several years, yada yada ... I still get surprised It's a big world, dude. And an even bigger universe. Truly, it is. I would say to you, "You need to get out more," lol [/preachy]

Yeah maybe you're right in substituting surprise for shock there's that definition thingy again. My point is discernment trumps surprise, and Solomon will tell you that, I'm sure.

 

[agua]

I'm prol gonna be off to sleep here in a bit ... next question, do you have any personal experience with the above mentioned things ?

Most likely, G'nite

Yes I have many experiences that aren't as easily identified as spiritual, as yours seemed to be, and I don't relate them online, or to people I don't know well, of course.

Good night DLTBBB.

 

[TillICollapse]

I'm not sure that I understand what you took away from Ecclesiastes, or if you understand it. Do you think Solomon was telling us to damn the torpedoes and live life to the full, in pleasures ?

No I don't think that's what Solomon was saying ... I think some of the things he said however, point to his position and choices in life, speaking from someone who lived in luxury and indulged himself. It's like someone who is always looking at a beautiful, luxurious, indulged image of themselves in the mirror, eventually coming to the conclusion that "all is vanity". Well of course they will lol. It is a reflection of his own life to come to that conclusion. In some ways, parts of Ecclesiastes could be seen as him realizing his own follies and finally considering some of the effects his own status in life had on him. That type of lifestyle will only carry you so long ... so I'm told. It's easy to say after you've lived it, which partially where I see Solomon speaking from. It's easy to tell someone who has never known luxury, who sits outside your gates hoping for bread crumbs, "This is all just vanity, just worry about what God tells you to do today and let it all go, trust me I've lived it" etc. while that person sits there hungry and starved for comfort and rest. So while I saw lessons in Ecclesiastes, I took them from the perspective I was in at the time, due to my own place in life, etc.

I haven't read it in probably 12+ years though, so I'm assuming I may take away something new obviously

Yeah maybe you're right in substituting surprise for shock there's that definition thingy again. My point is discernment trumps surprise, and Solomon will tell you that, I'm sure.

Hmm ... I'd have to think about that.

Mike Tyson is no Solomon, but he's got one of my favorite bits of wisdom down:

"Everyone has a plan, till they get punched in the mouth," ...

I find it's the surprises in life and the unexpected which tend to reveal our character and nature, and what has been built within us as well as revealing to us the things we need to get rid of. Look at the story of Job, for example. Was he surprised at what happened to him ? What trumped his surprise, if anything ?

With all of Solomon's wisdom, did his discernment lead him down a path to where he would face no real surprises ?

Yes I have many experiences that aren't as easily identified as spiritual, as yours seemed to be, and I don't relate them online, or to people I don't know well, of course.

I gotcha, I understand

Good night DLTBBB.

Had to look that one up haha.

 

[Queller]

This is the usual definition of faith presented by Atheists, but it's incorrect. Christian faith is evidence based. Which scripture do you use to get your definition of Christian faith ?

The idea that Christian faith is not evidence-based comes from Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

and

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

On what scripture is your claim that "Christian faith is evidence based" rest?

 

[Strathos]

I thought that was called Asatru(sp)?

 

[Strathos]

Oh, I see. Like a different denomination.

 

[agua]

No I don't think that's what Solomon was saying ... I think some of the things he said however, point to his position and choices in life, speaking from someone who lived in luxury and indulged himself. It's like someone who is always looking at a beautiful, luxurious, indulged image of themselves in the mirror, eventually coming to the conclusion that "all is vanity". Well of course they will lol. It is a reflection of his own life to come to that conclusion. In some ways, parts of Ecclesiastes could be seen as him realizing his own follies and finally considering some of the effects his own status in life had on him. That type of lifestyle will only carry you so long ... so I'm told. It's easy to say after you've lived it, which partially where I see Solomon speaking from. It's easy to tell someone who has never known luxury, who sits outside your gates hoping for bread crumbs, "This is all just vanity, just worry about what God tells you to do today and let it all go, trust me I've lived it" etc. while that person sits there hungry and starved for comfort and rest. So while I saw lessons in Ecclesiastes, I took them from the perspective I was in at the time, due to my own place in life, etc.

I can't fault this interpretation.

Mike Tyson is no Solomon, but he's got one of my favorite bits of wisdom down:

"Everyone has a plan, till they get punched in the mouth," ...

I find it's the surprises in life and the unexpected which tend to reveal our character and nature, and what has been built within us as well as revealing to us the things we need to get rid of. Look at the story of Job, for example. Was he surprised at what happened to him ? What trumped his surprise, if anything ?

I think when you gather many life experiences it leads to being less surprised, with age. I won't get into Job's story but I don't think surprise was his reaction. Maybe confusion, at first.

I agree there're ways Yahweh moulds us that, at first, may be surprising.

With all of Solomon's wisdom, did his discernment lead him down a path to where he would face no real surprises ?

Yes I reckon it would have been very rare that Solomon, as an adult, was surprised. I think you didn't take my disclaimer earlier seriously when I told you that not being surprised doesn't remove the pleasure or excitement of new experiences, at all.

 

[agua]

The idea that Christian faith is not evidence-based comes from Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

and

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

On what scripture is your claim that "Christian faith is evidence based" rest?

I'll give you the reference and part of the short discussion Dave Ellis and I had in the " Is belief in a god exists a choice " thread. Remember the faith we walk by is because we have evidence that Yahweh will do as He says, in the same way He did for the Israelite in the desert.

Originally Posted by Dave Ellis

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Here's the various other translations as well, but they all basically say the same thing: Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
​

Ok yes this is usual scripture people use to define faith cool. I submit this scripture is very poorly understood and I'll give a quick summary why. It's best to use the original text but I'll give the KJV.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence ( G1650) of things not seen.

G1650
ἔλεγχος
elegchos
el'-eng-khos
From G1651; proof, conviction: - evidence, reproof.

Faith is based on proof and evidence. In a nut shell faith itself is the visible sign that a person accepts the evidence of God.

Well, if we're talking about the colloquial usage of the word faith, it's essentially belief without evidence. That does line up with Hebrews 11:1 that I listed above.

I'm showing that the colloquial usage of faith isn't accurate ( in Christianity ) aand it doesn't line up with Hebrews 11. I understand it's the usual definition Atheists in particular use but it's incorrect. The whole chapter 11 deals with people who have strong belief/faith and this allows them to accept Yahweh's directions. You can maybe think of it in this way. Faith ( experential ) existed in these Saints and this could be seen in their actions.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why are you a Christian instead of...

1) Muslim
2) Buddhist
3) Jewish
4) Hindu
5) Other religions.

Hopefully I won't get any circular answers like, "I'm Christian because I believe in Jesus" = "I'm Christian because I'm Christian"...

I am a Christian because I like Christianity more than I like Islam, Hinduism, and Confucianism. I am not sufficiently informed about Judaism, Buddhism, and "other religions" to offer much comment on them beyond saying the obvious "I am not attracted to religions about which I know very little or nothing"