[MOVED]Are you lawless?

Bob S

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Even if Jesus could change the Sabbath, he never did, and if he had tried to, then he would have shown that he was a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), not the Lord of the Sabbath. We have no authority to countermand God and God specifically forbade adding or subtracting from His law (Deuteronomy 4:2), so we only have the authority to interpret it. We must obey God rather than man, so if any man says not to obey any of God's commands, then we must obey God instead.
Break one point of the 613 laws found in the Torah and you have fallen short just like the Israelites did.
Do you abide by all the Torah or do you pick and choose the ones you feel you can easily do? Jesus said not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law. Do you understand the implications of Jesus words?
 
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Soyeong

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Break one point of the 613 laws found in the Torah and you have fallen short just like the Israelites did.
Do you abide by all the Torah or do you pick and choose the ones you feel you can easily do? Jesus said not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law. Do you understand the implications of Jesus words?

God did not set Israel up to fail by giving them an impossible standard that they needed to meet in order to become righteous, but rather they became righteous by faith and the law is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). The law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so saying that not one jot nor tittle would pass from the law means that God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness doesn't change and that Jesus' warning in Matthew 5:19 is one that more Christians should take more seriously. Sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so we should not break the least of God's laws. Jesus gave us a perfectly sinless example for us to follow of how to obey the law and we are told by faith to uphold the law (Romans 3:31), to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), to walk in the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27), to be his disciple (Matthew 23:8), to imitate him (1 Corinthians 11:1), to be like him (Philippians 2:5), to bear much good fruit (John 15:8-10), to have a righteous conduct (1 John 3:10), to have a holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16), to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and to avoid sin (Romans 6:15), all of which are in accordance with his obedience to God's law.
 
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BobRyan

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God did not set Israel up to fail by giving them an impossible standard that they needed to meet in order to become righteous, but rather they became righteous by faith and the law is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). The law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so saying that not one jot nor tittle would pass from the law means that God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness doesn't change and that Jesus' warning in Matthew 5:19 is one that more Christians should take more seriously. Sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so we should not break the least of God's laws. Jesus gave us a perfectly sinless example for us to follow of how to obey the law and we are told by faith to uphold the law (Romans 3:31), to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), to walk in the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27), to be his disciple (Matthew 23:8), to imitate him (1 Corinthians 11:1), to be like him (Philippians 2:5), to bear much good fruit (John 15:8-10), to have a righteous conduct (1 John 3:10), to have a holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16), to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and to avoid sin (Romans 6:15), all of which are in accordance with his obedience to God's law.

Well said!! Good bible texts all!
 
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BobRyan

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Even if Jesus could change the Sabbath, he never did, and if he had tried to, then he would have shown that he was a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), not the Lord of the Sabbath. We have no authority to countermand God and God specifically forbade adding or subtracting from His law (Deuteronomy 4:2), so we only have the authority to interpret it. We must obey God rather than man, so if any man says not to obey any of God's commands, then we must obey God instead.

Jesus did in fact address the problem of traditions trying to "edit" the Commandments of God --

Christ condemned it.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 
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Bob S

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God did not set Israel up to fail by giving them an impossible standard that they needed to meet in order to become righteous, but rather they became righteous by faith and the law is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). The law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so saying that not one jot nor tittle would pass from the law means that God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness doesn't change and that Jesus' warning in Matthew 5:19 is one that more Christians should take more seriously. Sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so we should not break the least of God's laws. Jesus gave us a perfectly sinless example for us to follow of how to obey the law and we are told by faith to uphold the law (Romans 3:31), to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), to walk in the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27), to be his disciple (Matthew 23:8), to imitate him (1 Corinthians 11:1), to be like him (Philippians 2:5), to bear much good fruit (John 15:8-10), to have a righteous conduct (1 John 3:10), to have a holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16), to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and to avoid sin (Romans 6:15), all of which are in accordance with his obedience to God's law.

Please answer my questions. I need to know what kind of mind thought I am dealing with.

Do you abide by all the Torah or do you pick and choose the ones you feel you can easily do? Jesus said not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law. Do you understand the implications of Jesus words? Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the laws on Calvary? If not why not. He said that He came to fulfill the law. Again, did He or did He not? Do you know what fulfill means?
 
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Bob S

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Jesus did in fact address the problem of traditions trying to "edit" the Commandments of God --

Christ condemned it.
But according to SDAs Jesus does not condemn you for supporting the church that kills babies in their hospitals?

I don't ave to "edit" the commandments. Paul wrote that they were temporary, They were the guide until Christ gave believers the Holy Spirit. They are history.
 
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Soyeong

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Please answer my questions. I need to know what kind of mind thought I am dealing with.

Do you abide by all the Torah or do you pick and choose the ones you feel you can easily do? Jesus said not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law. Do you understand the implications of Jesus words? Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the laws on Calvary? If not why not. He said that He came to fulfill the law. Again, did He or did He not? Do you know what fulfill means?

To fulfill the law is a rabbinic technical term for interpreting the law in a way that demonstrates a full understanding of it by words or by actions, which is never used in other Jewish literature to mean to do away with it. As Jesus said he came to do, he then proceeded to fulfill the law six times in the rest of Matthew 5 by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. Every Sabbath in a synagogue a rabbi would take a Torah scroll to Moses' seat and fulfill the law by interpreting it and teaching how to understand it. According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the law. Our salvation is from sin, and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation is from lawlessness for the purpose of lawfulness. So fulfilling the law was not a unique event done by Jesus on the cross to abolish the law and to free us to act lawlessly, but on the contrary, his redemptive work on the cross was to pay our penalties for acting lawlessly and to save us from acting lawlessly. Paul also confirmed that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather that our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). While Jesus certainly accomplished much on the cross, not all has been accomplished because there is still a second coming and all that comes with that in Revelation and heaven and earth have not passed away (Revelation 21:1), so both phrases are referring to end times.

As such, we should take his warning in Matthew 5:19 more seriously not to relax the least of the laws or teach others to do the same and his warning in Matthew 7:23 even more seriously that he will tell those who practice lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. In 1 John 3:4-6, it says that those who continue to practice lawlessness have neither seen or known him. The point of our sanctification is being made to be more like Christ in his obedience to the law, so we should by faith and by the leading of the Spirit come into obedience to even the least of the laws. Learning how to understand and obey the law by faith takes careful study and prayer.
 
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Soyeong

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But according to SDAs Jesus does not condemn you for supporting the church that kills babies in their hospitals?

I don't ave to "edit" the commandments. Paul wrote that they were temporary, They were the guide until Christ gave believers the Holy Spirit. They are history.

The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, but rather the role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so when we are guided by the Spirit it is always in accordance with what the Father has commanded. The law is God's instructions for how to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct and the way to have such a conduct does not change just because we have the Spirit to guide us in it.
 
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bugkiller

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God did not set Israel up to fail by giving them an impossible standard that they needed to meet in order to become righteous, but rather they became righteous by faith and the law is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). The law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so saying that not one jot nor tittle would pass from the law means that God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness doesn't change and that Jesus' warning in Matthew 5:19 is one that more Christians should take more seriously. Sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so we should not break the least of God's laws. Jesus gave us a perfectly sinless example for us to follow of how to obey the law and we are told by faith to uphold the law (Romans 3:31), to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), to walk in the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27), to be his disciple (Matthew 23:8), to imitate him (1 Corinthians 11:1), to be like him (Philippians 2:5), to bear much good fruit (John 15:8-10), to have a righteous conduct (1 John 3:10), to have a holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16), to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and to avoid sin (Romans 6:15), all of which are in accordance with his obedience to God's law.
Oh?

17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. Isa 63

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Ps 14

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Jesus did in fact address the problem of traditions trying to "edit" the Commandments of God --

Christ condemned it.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Seeing you're not in compliance, why is it you edit them?

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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To fulfill the law is a rabbinic technical term for interpreting the law in a way that demonstrates a full understanding of it by words or by actions, which is never used in other Jewish literature to mean to do away with it. As Jesus said he came to do, he then proceeded to fulfill the law six times in the rest of Matthew 5 by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. Every Sabbath in a synagogue a rabbi would take a Torah scroll to Moses' seat and fulfill the law by interpreting it and teaching how to understand it. According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the law. Our salvation is from sin, and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation is from lawlessness for the purpose of lawfulness. So fulfilling the law was not a unique event done by Jesus on the cross to abolish the law and to free us to act lawlessly, but on the contrary, his redemptive work on the cross was to pay our penalties for acting lawlessly and to save us from acting lawlessly. Paul also confirmed that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather that our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). While Jesus certainly accomplished much on the cross, not all has been accomplished because there is still a second coming and all that comes with that in Revelation and heaven and earth have not passed away (Revelation 21:1), so both phrases are referring to end times.

As such, we should take his warning in Matthew 5:19 more seriously not to relax the least of the laws or teach others to do the same and his warning in Matthew 7:23 even more seriously that he will tell those who practice lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. In 1 John 3:4-6, it says that those who continue to practice lawlessness have neither seen or known him. The point of our sanctification is being made to be more like Christ in his obedience to the law, so we should by faith and by the leading of the Spirit come into obedience to even the least of the laws. Learning how to understand and obey the law by faith takes careful study and prayer.
Personally I think you have no clue what you said above.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, but rather the role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so when we are guided by the Spirit it is always in accordance with what the Father has commanded. The law is God's instructions for how to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct and the way to have such a conduct does not change just because we have the Spirit to guide us in it.
Which law? The Old Covenant Law or the New Covenant law? I believe you don't comprehend I John 3:23.

bugkiller
 
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Soyeong

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Oh?

17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. Isa 63

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Ps 14

bugkiller

I'm in agreement with this, did you have a point?

Seeing you're not in compliance, why is it you edit them?

bugkiller

Huh?

Personally I think you have no clue what you said above.

bugkiller

That's nice.

Which law? The Old Covenant Law or the New Covenant law? I believe you don't comprehend I John 3:23.

bugkiller

God is holy, righteous, and good, so He always has such a conduct, and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because because it is a reflection of God's character and it is His instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to have a such a conduct existed from the beginning, exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between the Old and New Covenants. As part of the New Covenant, we are also told to have a holy, righteous and good conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10), which involves following God's instructions in His law for how to have such a conduct. John came preaching repentance from our sins, which are our lawless actions, so he was not teaching people to have a different conduct than what God had commanded in His law.
 
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jerry kelso

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Even if Jesus could change the Sabbath, he never did, and if he had tried to, then he would have shown that he was a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), not the Lord of the Sabbath. We have no authority to countermand God and God specifically forbade adding or subtracting from His law (Deuteronomy 4:2), so we only have the authority to interpret it. We must obey God rather than man, so if any man says not to obey any of God's commands, then we must obey God instead.

soyeong,

1. You are right, Jesus did not change the sabbath for the jews in his ministry. He had to fulfill the law and not destroy it. When he fulfilled the types and shadows said about him and his ministry as the Messiah for that period then the law of Moses was abolished automatically because fulfilling his mission under the law and living the law perfectly so he could be the sinless sacrificed lamb to take away the sins of the world.
Jesus mission was to present the KoH and the KoG to the jews. At the same time he knew that the prophecies said they would reject him as Messiah and he became the stumbling block at which they stumbled at. His main mission was to be the suffering Savior to die for the whole world. Isaiah 53. They wanted the conquering King but they had to receive the KoG (spiritual aspect) in their hearts to receive the kingdom. Matthew 4:17; 6:33; Luke 17:20.

2. Jesus brought in the new covenant by his death but the new covenant was not made with Israel the nation because they rejected him and under the law they were cursed and Jesus pronounced judgement on them and it happened in 70 A.D. Jeremiah 31:31, Matthew 24:1-2.

3. The new covenant was made for the transgressions of the first covenant as Hebrews 9:15 points out for that is what sins there were up to that point that they might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. The jews were not perfected until calvary and Hebrews 11:140 points out that they had to be perfected with us the church and it could only be at calvary that this reconciling happened as Paul points out to save, reconcile and break down the walls of separation of the jew and gentile to become the new man and body of Christ in the form of the mystery of the church. Ephesians 2:13-18.

4. Jesus work as the Messiah concerning the jews and their covenant was separate from his work at Calvary even though it led up to that. Jesus preached believing in him as Messiah and that he would forgive them of their sins to gain entrance into the physical kingdom on earth as the KoH reign. They stumbled at the stumbling stone Jesus Christ but will still fulfill their covenants in the tribulation to take their rightful place at the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4).

5. New Covenant believers are no more lawless than the antediluvians before the written law. We still have a conscience and the understanding of more than a conscience. We still have the written law from the old covenant recorded and the understanding more of the law of Moses. We today have the law of the Spirit which has done away with the law of sin and death that made those law keepers live to the frailty of man and sin because of the weakness of the law that could not save and could not help attain to the commandment and this is why they lived defeated more than victorious because of self effort more than faith in God.

6. We have a greater revelation than all the ages before because of the reality of Jesus Christ death, burial and resurrection and the mystery of the church etc.

7. Moral laws are in each age and are to be obeyed in this age as well as in past ages.

8. The ethics are different in the total picture of the mechanics of the covenant and how they operated within that covenant. It is not about the moral law within itself because sin in always wrong and we are not to sin.

9. The Mosaic law had a specific blessing and cursing system that the new covenant does not have. Adultery received stoning that was mandatory. Under the new covenant this is not in effect. It does not mean that we cannot reap what we sow but many christians have fallen into this and their ministries have suffered and for those who were truly sorry and repented have been able to come back with their ministry.

10. The Mosaic law had ordinances of sacrificial types pointing to the Messiah etc. and they were commandment to be kept just like the moral law. Also, the sabbath is looked at as moral because it was included in the ten commandments. Though it is not moral and will not damn you to hell if you don't keep it, it does show how the law should be looked at as keeping the law whether specifically moral or not.

11. What I mean is that the law of Moses was a specific context with a specific purpose for a specific people to bring in the Messiah. But the law came in because of transgressions or sins. The law was till the seed should come.

12. The passover was for a memorial to keep as a feast to the Lord eternally as an ordinance forever for the jews. This was salvation for them so their firstborn would be saved from Pharaoh's onslaught of the firstborn. So it was the feast of the passover and unleavened bread mentioned in connection with the sabbath (Exodus 12:14-20).

13. Then after the Exodus they experience the bitter waters of Marah and God makes them sweet and makes a statute and an ordinance to prove them. The condition of obedience to God's voice and do what was right and give ear to the commandment and if they did he would not put any of those diseases on them from the Egyptian days for he was the Lord God who healeth them.

14. They go from the wilderness of Shur into the wilderness of sin and complain and God gives manna and then they broke the sabbath and God reprimanded them. The sabbath was connected to the Red Sea deliverance before the ten commandments were given. Read Exodus 16.

15. In Exodus 19 God gave the condition of obedience in keeping the covenant and they would be a peculiar people and a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

16. Israel was not to touch the mount etc. or else they would die and the mount smokes up and God gives the 10 commandments. Exodus 20:1-2: And God spake all these words saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

17. Having no other Gods before him, thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image etc.had a specific judgement of visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the 3rd and 4th generation of them that hate God and he would show mercy to those who loved him and kept his commandments. Taking the name of the Lord in vain God would hold them accountable. Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy; 6 days to labor and the 7th to rest. This time God gave the creation sabbath example as rest and it was mandatory as well. Deuteronomy 5:15 explains the sabbath was commanded to be kept because they were a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm. The church was not physically delivered from Egypt and we were never a servant to Egypt physically.

18. Spiritually we can say we were a servant slave in Egypt and delivered into Canaan the promise land. This shows that the jewish sabbath was not meant to be kept by the church. Spiritually we are to enter into his rest according to Hebrews 3. This is why everyday can be a sabbath and it is why Paul said do not judge according to the jewish sabbaths and drinks and ordinances of the law of Moses.

19. I love sabbath day only saturday keepers but this belief is legalism according to the scripture which Christ did away with called the letter of the law (2 Corinthians 3:6). We are to keep commandments but the jewish sabbath of the old covenant is not contained in the new covenant. Proper perspective in proper context for the proper time context to understand how the ethic or rules are in effect and in what respect of the context of how to perform them and in what way to perform them and what was the same as well as the differences in each age.

20. The term the law of Moses which was the old covenant being abolished is true (Hebrews 8:6-7). It was one unit of a specific context for a specific people and point of time in that context (Galatians 3:19; Romans 3:2).

21. The old covenant rule of life for the jews would not prevent the seed coming in and the new covenant coming in. The seed came in the old dispensation of the old covenant of law for the jews; of which the gentiles were never under. They were under the law of conscience still. The new covenant did not come in until the law was fulfilled by Christ in his earthly ministry and then it absolved at Calvary because it had been satisfied in that context of the jewish dispensation.

22. Yes, the moral laws we keep are still in effect within themselves and we keep them because of who we are in Christ and his finished work. This is the new covenant context and not the old covenant context.

23. The law is forever for the jews because of their culture was totally intertwined with the whole law morals, sacrificial and civil in obedience to God. However, for a new covenant believing jew today who is really a part of the church the ethic of the law is still different because it in not to be of necessity to incur the judgement of the law. 2 Corinthians 9:7 shows this principle through giving in the new covenant on giving and the differences in the law of sowing and reaping. There is still a sowing sparingly shall reap sparingly and sowing bountiful shall reap bountiful. In the old covenant it effected your agriculture because of robbing God of tithes and offerings. This is what the whole nation was doing and were cursed with a curse in connection with the law. We are not under the specific mandatory curse of the law.

24. We can still incur reaping sparingly because of not being obedient and not being a good stewardship but at the same time if one was good at business they can flourish despite not giving the tithe. Many preachers go overboard on this point to try and to get people to give. This teaches a doctrine of fear and that is not scriptural. Sowing and reaping laws under the old covenant was sowing and reaping the specific blessing or cursing of the law of Moses. In Jesus day, the message was sown and souls were reaped who received the message. This is what the 30, 60 and 100 fold were about in the KoH parables (Matthew 13:18-19; 23). 2 Corinthians 9 the message was sown though money was reaped. Even in this context had nothing to do with the financial needs of the church but the poor saint in Jerusalem. Actually the message could be sown sparingly or bountifully as well, but it was not the money that was sown to get blessed. Galatians speaks of sowing and reaping to the flesh or the Spirit (Galatians 6:7-8).

25. The point is that the law being abolished has to be understood in the fact of the whole ethic of rules, how they engaged in those rules of conduct and life, culturally with specific mandatory blessings and judgements and all the particular details of how they were effected to respond to performing the commandment and not because there are similar things or same things in a different context. Understanding the new covenant and how it was different than the old covenant and understanding the weakness of the old covenant and commandments in that context, though the law was holy and good; it will help understand the better promises of the new covenant and the greater glory compared to the glory of the old covenant and thus will help comprehend of how we live according to the commandments in the law of the Spirit and the new covenant and show us that we are not indeed to be lawless because of there not being a law.

26. The law of the Spirit is a higher law because though we have greater access to God and we do not have to deal with the yoke of bondage of the old covenant we will be judged by our secrets. How easy is it to miss the mark because we don't have to worry about the judgement of the law of Moses. Because of God's mercy law keepers in Romans 6 thought they could sin and the more they sinned the greater grace would be magnified and Paul said God forbid for how we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein. We are not to take advantage of God's grace by sinking into law mentality. They had a relaxed feeling because of no immediate and awful judgement of the Mosaic law and they could ask God for forgiveness without offering sacrifices.

27. So in conclusion, we are not lawless as new covenant believers, but we keep the moral commandments which were before the law and yet contained in the written law but under a different ethic and context in both ages as well as under the new covenant. The details of the covenants will harmonize with the overall context.

28. The new covenant is not the old covenant modified or a part of the new covenant or an extension of the old covenant. It is a completely new rule of life in the Spirit and of a new creation that is under the reality of Christ crucified and risen and in the throne room interceding who replaced the types and shadows of the law and all things connected with the workings of the law, including, areas of civil, sacrificial, and moral. Jerry kelso
 
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BobRyan

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God is holy, righteous, and good, so He always has such a conduct, and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because because it is a reflection of God's character and it is His instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to have a such a conduct existed from the beginning, exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between the Old and New Covenants. As part of the New Covenant, we are also told to have a holy, righteous and good conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10), which involves following God's instructions in His law for how to have such a conduct. John came preaching repentance from our sins, which are our lawless actions, so he was not teaching people to have a different conduct than what God had commanded in His law.

Amen!

Nice post.
 
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BobRyan

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Break one point of the 613 laws found in the Torah and you have fallen short just like the Israelites did.
Do you abide by all the Torah or do you pick and choose the ones you feel you can easily do? Jesus said not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law. Do you understand the implications of Jesus words?

Do you understand the New Covenant? "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Jer 31:30-33 is the experience of the born again Christian.
 
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BobRyan

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God's Law was never made for man to break/tweak/edit. That is Christ's entire point in Mark 7:6-13

Your posts reveal all the poor scholarship of your group. And the total tolerance of its members to this ignorance.

By Contrast we have the actual Bible -


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.


It based on "He who said" -

Rom 2
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?



Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:


First commandment with a promise- in what unit of law?
 
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Bob S

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To fulfill the law is a rabbinic technical term for interpreting the law in a way that demonstrates a full understanding of it by words or by actions, which is never used in other Jewish literature to mean to do away with it.
Do you believe Paul was an ambassador for Jesus? Are his letters, in your mind set, part of canon? If you do then what you wrote and I quoted is diametrically opposed to each other. Paul wrote in Galatians 3:
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. Added until Jesus came. Now please do not tell me you believe "until" means something else in Rabbinic writing. If fulfilled means something else then why did those scholars throughout Biblical history not catch the real meaning. Messianics have a mysterious way of making their beliefs conform to scripture.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

As Jesus said he came to do, he then proceeded to fulfill the law six times in the rest of Matthew 5 by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it.
No, if God had wanted the law in 6 places changed for better understanding He would have done so from the get go. It was as Gods wanted it to be. What He did was not in any way fulfilling the law, He was adding to the commands. Jesus was under the law speaking to those who were also under the law

Every Sabbath in a synagogue a rabbi would take a Torah scroll to Moses' seat and fulfill the law by interpreting it and teaching how to understand it. According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the law.
That is double talk, a strawman argument. They no more fulfilled the law by sitting there reading from the law than I can walk on water. If eveyone since Moses fulfilled the law by loving their neighbor Why did Jesus come to save them? If we could fulfill on our own then Jesus was/is for naught. Rabbis could only read from the law. God made it plain enough for a child to understand. What the Rabbis were and are doing is twisting the law to suit their own needs.


Our salvation is from sin,
Our salvation is from the shed blood of Our Savior and His grace.

and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation is from lawlessness for the purpose of lawfulness. So fulfilling the law was not a unique event done by Jesus on the cross to abolish the law and to free us to act lawlessly, but on the contrary, his redemptive work on the cross was to pay our penalties for acting lawlessly and to save us from acting lawlessly. Paul also confirmed that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather that our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). While Jesus certainly accomplished much on the cross, not all has been accomplished because there is still a second coming and all that comes with that in Revelation and heaven and earth have not passed away (Revelation 21:1), so both phrases are referring to end times.

We can argue until this Earth ends about what law John was referring to when he said that sin is transgression of the law. You, of course, would point to Moses and the Torah. I, on the other hand, would point to John for an explanation of what the law means. He didn't fail to provide our answer. 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Claim the promise. Christianity is so simple, why do Messianics make it so hard?


As such, we should take his warning in Matthew 5:19 more seriously not to relax the least of the laws or teach others to do the same and his warning in Matthew 7:23 even more seriously that he will tell those who practice lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. In 1 John 3:4-6, it says that those who continue to practice lawlessness have neither seen or known him. The point of our sanctification is being made to be more like Christ in his obedience to the law, so we should by faith and by the leading of the Spirit come into obedience to even the least of the laws. Learning how to understand and obey the law by faith takes careful study and prayer.
Not one speck would pass from the law. If you cannot recognize "until all is fulfilled" then you have a hard row to hoe friend. Either you avoid the jots and tittles and go one telling yourself that you have some kind of dispensation or seek out the real truth and have complete rest in Jesus.
 
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jerry kelso

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God's Law was never made for man to break/tweak/edit. That is Christ's entire point in Mark 7:6-13



By Contrast we have the actual Bible -


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.


It based on "He who said" -

Rom 2
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?



Eph 6:2

2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

First commandment with a promise- in what unit of law?

bobryan,

1. The law was never made to break, tweak, or edit. You have the wrong understanding about the law of Moses which was the law of God for the jews in a specific context for a specific time until the seed should come (Galatians 3:19).
Do you understand that the law of Moses which was the old covenant was abolished and replaced by the new covenant (Hebrews 8:6-7).

2. God is the moral governor of the universe and we are his freewill agents who must abide by the moral law.
The moral law was before man, in the antediluvian period, during the patriarchs and in the time of the written law and now after the cross.

3. In each age of man the moral law is the same basic meaning as far as what is right and should be obeyed. In each age of man a different context effects the moral responses. In the antediluvian period they only had the basic revelation of their conscience and no written law but what was contained in the written law later was a law unto themselves. This is talking about the moral aspect of the law.
In the time of the law of Israel was to tell those under the law thou shalt not and whatever was commanded so every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God. This is why by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified. The law was holy and good according to Romans 7 and it was ordained to life but because the law of sin and death took advantage of it they lived to the frailty of man in sin and by self effort instead of overcoming. If they performed the covenant then it would be good but the weakness of the commandment is not in what it said as much as it couldn't help people to perform it and it couldn't save a person.

4. In the age of the new covenant we still obey moral laws which is written in our hearts and it is to be who we are in Christ and not what we do in trying to work up to a code of ethics to attain. Your child has to be taught the law to begin with because their brain cannot assess but yes and no and then when they learn the moral law they are ready to accept Christ. If all a parent does is subdue their kids by the law and it is not who they are they more times than not will rebel against the law. Do you want your child to merely obey out of a code of ethics or out of pure love. If it is not who they are it could mean life or death at some point in time and context. We have to minimize the risk as parents and as christians we need to understand the better promises of the new covenant and how the moral law are enacted and how we respond to the moral law a new covenant believer. The old covenant had a specific blessing and cursing system attached to it and the new covenant doesn't.

5. The passages about certain laws from the old covenant in the new testament are true like loving your neighbor as yourself, not committing adultery, etc. But the context of the chapters are not about telling the hearer that the old covenant law is still in force in the same manner as the old.

6. For example, adultery is still wrong but doesn't have a judgement of stoning. In James, the law of liberty is the new covenant and the spiritual aspect is still the same because adultery is a moral failure and there is not stoning literally that is mandatory. Also, James was talking to jews who understood the old testament law and was talking about being a respect of persons because the jews were proud of being the elect covenant people. If they were a respect of persons they would be sinning and transgress the law. James talks about the real jew who believed what they profess to be true was really who they were in Christ and his finished work of Christ.

7. The sabbath was given to the jews in the context of the Red Sea deliverance originally (Deuteronomy 5:15). In Exodus 20 it gives the example of the creation sabbath and for the jews specifically in their covenant. The law came because of transgressions and would be till the seed should come and could not keep the promise from coming of the Messiah, the cross and eternal life.

8. In the new covenant, the sabbath is not mandatory on one day because Paul said not to judge in drinks or sabbath days etc. The whole point of the chapter is not to have the law mentality about keeping ordinances as in the old covenant.

9. Ephesians 6:2 was in the old covenant and that is a fact but it is not the whole of the law and its rules and ethic. It is now in the new covenant under the rules of the new covenant.

10. One must understand the overall context to comprehend the details. The bible says the old covenant was abolished and so similar things that are carried over have the same moral meaning and spiritual application but it doesn't have a specific blessing and cursing system with it and it is not about the letter of the law being kept as it is the spirit of the law according to the new covenant and not the law of Moses which was the law of covenant.

11. If one says the law of Moses which was the old covenant was not abolished then it is the same as the new covenant. If you say the moral law in different contexts is the law of God and it was not abolished then the moral law which was effected by the mechanic of the covenant and had a specific judgement attached to it is still in effect.
So tell me your specific terms about what was abolished. Jerry kelso
 
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soyeong,

1. You are right, Jesus did not change the sabbath for the jews in his ministry. He had to fulfill the law and not destroy it. When he fulfilled the types and shadows said about him and his ministry as the Messiah for that period then the law of Moses was abolished automatically because fulfilling his mission under the law and living the law perfectly so he could be the sinless sacrificed lamb to take away the sins of the world.
Jesus mission was to present the KoH and the KoG to the jews. At the same time he knew that the prophecies said they would reject him as Messiah and he became the stumbling block at which they stumbled at. His main mission was to be the suffering Savior to die for the whole world. Isaiah 53. They wanted the conquering King but they had to receive the KoG (spiritual aspect) in their hearts to receive the kingdom. Matthew 4:17; 6:33; Luke 17:20.

Our salvation is from sin (Mark 1:21), and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation is from lawlessness, for the purpose of lawfulness. Our salvation from lawlessness involves Jesus dying to pay the penalty for our lawless actions and Jesus causing us to stop acting lawlessly. The law is God's instructions for how to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct and sanctification is about being made to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, like Jesus did, in accordance with the law. Abolishing God's law, which Jesus specifically said he came not to do, would amount to abolishing His holiness, righteousness, and goodness.

2. Jesus brought in the new covenant by his death but the new covenant was not made with Israel the nation because they rejected him and under the law they were cursed and Jesus pronounced judgement on them and it happened in 70 A.D. Jeremiah 31:31, Matthew 24:1-2.

Jesus came healing the sick and preaching good news, so he was very popular among the people, it was the Jewish leadership under the thumb of Roman authority that rejected Jesus. In any case, Jesus said he came only to save the lost sheep of Israel and Jeremiah 31:31 says that the New Covenant is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, so if you don't belong to either one, then you're not part of the New Covenant. It is a good thing then that we are grafted into Israel (Ephesians 2:12, Ephesians 2:19).

3. The new covenant was made for the transgressions of the first covenant as Hebrews 9:15 points out for that is what sins there were up to that point that they might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. The jews were not perfected until calvary and Hebrews 11:140 points out that they had to be perfected with us the church and it could only be at calvary that this reconciling happened as Paul points out to save, reconcile and break down the walls of separation of the jew and gentile to become the new man and body of Christ in the form of the mystery of the church. Ephesians 2:13-18.

What was separating Jews from Gentiles was the man-made rabbinic traditions, such as mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews from associating or visiting with Gentiles, not the commands of God. The commands of God instruct Jews to love Gentiles as themselves (Leviticus 19:34), so the separation was actually in violation of His commands. Following man-made rabbinic traditions is how to identify with Jews, but follow God's law is how to identify with God, as those who belong to the body of Christ ought.

4. Jesus work as the Messiah concerning the jews and their covenant was separate from his work at Calvary even though it led up to that. Jesus preached believing in him as Messiah and that he would forgive them of their sins to gain entrance into the physical kingdom on earth as the KoH reign. They stumbled at the stumbling stone Jesus Christ but will still fulfill their covenants in the tribulation to take their rightful place at the head of the nations (Isaiah 2:2-4).

Where they stumbled and why Jesus wept over Jerusalem, was because they thought he was coming to conquer and reign over them.

5. New Covenant believers are no more lawless than the antediluvians before the written law. We still have a conscience and the understanding of more than a conscience. We still have the written law from the old covenant recorded and the understanding more of the law of Moses. We today have the law of the Spirit which has done away with the law of sin and death that made those law keepers live to the frailty of man and sin because of the weakness of the law that could not save and could not help attain to the commandment and this is why they lived defeated more than victorious because of self effort more than faith in God.

Romans 7:22-23 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Paul said He delighted in God's law and then contrasted it with the law of sin in death, so he was not talking about the same thing. The role of the Spirit is to lead us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and when we obey God's law by the leading of the Spirit, then it brings delight and life abundantly. The law is God instructions for how to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, but it could not make us holy, righteous, and good because our flesh prevented us from meeting its requirement, so God did what the law could not do by causing us to be able to obey it. He did this by sending His Son to die on the cross to pay our penalty for breaking the law and to see is free from breaking the law, and by sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the law so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:2-4). The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and it is those who have a carnal mind who do not submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

6. We have a greater revelation than all the ages before because of the reality of Jesus Christ death, burial and resurrection and the mystery of the church etc.

A greater revelation gives a better understanding of the Torah, but does not depart from the Torah. God does nothing that he has not first revealed through the prophets (Amos 3:7).

7. Moral laws are in each age and are to be obeyed in this age as well as in past ages.

All of God's laws are inherently moral and the standard by which we should live.

8. The ethics are different in the total picture of the mechanics of the covenant and how they operated within that covenant. It is not about the moral law within itself because sin in always wrong and we are not to sin.

God's law is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as lawlessness, so if you are in agreement that sin is always wrong and we are not to sin, then you should agree that we are not to break God's law.

9. The Mosaic law had a specific blessing and cursing system that the new covenant does not have. Adultery received stoning that was mandatory. Under the new covenant this is not in effect. It does not mean that we cannot reap what we sow but many christians have fallen into this and their ministries have suffered and for those who were truly sorry and repented have been able to come back with their ministry.

The penalties are still in effect under the New Covenant, but Jesus has paid for them for us and there is no need to enforce a penalty that has already been paid. We are set free from the curse of the law and have only to enjoy the blessings of the law.

10. The Mosaic law had ordinances of sacrificial types pointing to the Messiah etc. and they were commandment to be kept just like the moral law. Also, the sabbath is looked at as moral because it was included in the ten commandments. Though it is not moral and will not damn you to hell if you don't keep it, it does show how the law should be looked at as keeping the law whether specifically moral or not.

They were commandments just like the moral law precisely because they are all inherently moral law and God has made no amoral laws.

11. What I mean is that the law of Moses was a specific context with a specific purpose for a specific people to bring in the Messiah. But the law came in because of transgressions or sins. The law was till the seed should come.

The law is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith and it brings us to Christ because he is the one who can pay our penalty for breaking it and who can cause us to obey it by faith.

12. The passover was for a memorial to keep as a feast to the Lord eternally as an ordinance forever for the jews. This was salvation for them so their firstborn would be saved from Pharaoh's onslaught of the firstborn. So it was the feast of the passover and unleavened bread mentioned in connection with the sabbath (Exodus 12:14-20).

It is an ordinance forever for all who are grafted into Israel and would count themselves as one of God's chosen people (1 Peter 2:9-10). As our Passover lamb, Jesus brings fullness to Passover and makes it all the more important to keep as a rehearsal of what we will be doing during his reign. There is a wealth of rich teachings about the Messiah in studying the Feasts and the Temple. We are told to have a holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16) and I have no idea how you can argue that keeping God's holy days is not part of what it means to have a holy conduct, especially when 1 Peter 1:16 quotes from part of the law talking about keeping God's holy days.

13. Then after the Exodus they experience the bitter waters of Marah and God makes them sweet and makes a statute and an ordinance to prove them. The condition of obedience to God's voice and do what was right and give ear to the commandment and if they did he would not put any of those diseases on them from the Egyptian days for he was the Lord God who healeth them.

God did not make Israel keep His laws before He saved them out of Egypt, but rather He saved them first by faith while they were still sinners, then gave them His law and instructed them how to live righteously.

14. They go from the wilderness of Shur into the wilderness of sin and complain and God gives manna and then they broke the sabbath and God reprimanded them. The sabbath was connected to the Red Sea deliverance before the ten commandments were given. Read Exodus 16.

So the command to keep the Sabbath was given before the Old Covenant was made, so it does not follow that we aren't to keep it as part of the New Covenant.

15. In Exodus 19 God gave the condition of obedience in keeping the covenant and they would be a peculiar people and a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

What was once said about Israel now includes non-Jewish beleivers, so they should act according to the instructions that God has given to His chosen people.

16. Israel was not to touch the mount etc. or else they would die and the mount smokes up and God gives the 10 commandments. Exodus 20:1-2: And God spake all these words saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Sin is also equated with bondage and Christ freed us from breaking his law so that we would be free to not break his law.

17. Having no other Gods before him, thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image etc.had a specific judgement of visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the 3rd and 4th generation of them that hate God and he would show mercy to those who loved him and kept his commandments. Taking the name of the Lord in vain God would hold them accountable. Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy; 6 days to labor and the 7th to rest. This time God gave the creation sabbath example as rest and it was mandatory as well. Deuteronomy 5:15 explains the sabbath was commanded to be kept because they were a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm. The church was not physically delivered from Egypt and we were never a servant to Egypt physically.

Israel is referred to as saints (Numbers 16:3, Deuteronomy 33:3) and the Church is referred to as saints (Ephesians 1:1, Romans 1:7). As elect (Deuteronomy 7:6-7, Deuteronomy 14:2) and as elect (Colossians 3:12, Titus 1:1). As beloved (Deuteronomy 7:7, Deuteronomy 4:37, and as beloved (Colossians 3:12, Thessalonians 1:4). As called (Isaiah 41:9, Isaiah 43:1) and as called (Romans 1:6-7, 1 Corinthians 1:2). As church (Numbers 16:3, Psalms 89:5, Micah 2:5, Acts 7:38, Hebrews 2:12) and as church (Ephesians 1:1, Acts 20:28). As flock (Ezekiel 34, Psalms 77:20) and as flock (Luke 12:32, 1 Peter 5:2). As a holy nation, kingdom of priests, and a peculiar treasure (Exodus 19:5-6) and as a holy nation, kingdom of priests, and a peculiar treasure (1 Peter 2:9). As God's people (Hosea 1:9-10) and as God's people (1 Peter 2:10). As people of inheritance (Deuteronomy 4:20) and as people of inheritance (Ephesians 1:18). As God's tabernacle (Leviticus 26:11) and as God's tabernacle (John 1:14). God walks among them (Leviticus 26:12) and God walks among them (2 Corinthians 6:16-18). Christ is married to them (Isaiah 54:5, Jeremiah 3:14, Jeremiah 6:2, Jeremiah 31:32, Hosea 2:19) and Christ is married to them (Ephesians 5:22-23, 2 Corinthians 11:2).

There is no difference between Israel and the Church because they are one in the same.

18. Spiritually we can say we were a servant slave in Egypt and delivered into Canaan the promise land. This shows that the jewish sabbath was not meant to be kept by the church. Spiritually we are to enter into his rest according to Hebrews 3. This is why everyday can be a sabbath and it is why Paul said do not judge according to the jewish sabbaths and drinks and ordinances of the law of Moses.

Hebrews 3 warns that those who sinned and rebelled against God's commands would not enter His rest, so how in the world do you turn that around and say that we are entering into His rest so it's ok to sin and rebel against His command to keep the Sabbath? In reference to Colossians 2:16, we need to look at what the beliefs of the people judging them were, namely that they were teaching human precepts and promoting self-made religion, and asceticism, and severity to the body (Colossians 2:20-23). In other words, the Colossians were eating and drinking and keeping God's Sabbath and Festivals in obedience to God and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone teaching human precepts judge them for obeying God. We must obey God rather than man.

19. I love sabbath day only saturday keepers but this belief is legalism according to the scripture which Christ did away with called the letter of the law (2 Corinthians 3:6). We are to keep commandments but the jewish sabbath of the old covenant is not contained in the new covenant. Proper perspective in proper context for the proper time context to understand how the ethic or rules are in effect and in what respect of the context of how to perform them and in what way to perform them and what was the same as well as the differences in each age.

Legalism is not about saying that we should follow laws, otherwise Jesus' perfect obedience to the law would have been legalistic, but rather legalism is about trying to become justified through our own efforts, which is in fact a perversion of the law. God's law is about how He called those who have been justified are to act, not about how to become justified. The difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is not about whether to obey the law or not, but about how to obey the law. For example, the law against adultery as written allows someone to think lustfully about an unmarried woman, but the intent or spiritual principle behind the law prohibits that. We are called to live according to the higher standard of the spiritual principles of the law, which go above and beyond what the law as written requires, but which inherently also includes meeting the lower standard of the law as written.

20. The term the law of Moses which was the old covenant being abolished is true (Hebrews 8:6-7). It was one unit of a specific context for a specific people and point of time in that context (Galatians 3:19; Romans 3:2).

There is difference between a code of conduct and a covenant agreement to abide by a code of conduct. God is holy, righteous, and good, so He always has such a conduct, and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because because it is a reflection of God's character and it is His instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to have a such a conduct existed from the beginning, exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between the Old and New Covenants. Furthermore, Jesus specifically said that he didn't come to abolish the law (Mark 5:17) and Paul said that our faith doesn't abolish the law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31).

21. The old covenant rule of life for the jews would not prevent the seed coming in and the new covenant coming in. The seed came in the old dispensation of the old covenant of law for the jews; of which the gentiles were never under. They were under the law of conscience still. The new covenant did not come in until the law was fulfilled by Christ in his earthly ministry and then it absolved at Calvary because it had been satisfied in that context of the jewish dispensation.

If Gentiles were never under the law, then Christ didn't need to die to pay for their penalty for breaking the law. He did not need to set them free from something that they were already free from. Did Christ died to set them free of their consciouses? The law was fulfilled by Christ because he brought full understanding to how to obey and gave us a perfect example of how to obey it and we are told by faith to uphold the law (Romans 3:31), to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), to walk in the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27), to be his disciple (Matthew 23:8), to imitate him (1 Corinthians 11:1), to be like him (Philippians 2:5), to bear much good fruit (John 15:8-10), to have a righteous conduct (1 John 3:10), to have a holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16), to do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and to avoid sin (Romans 6:15), all of which are in accordance with his obedience to God's law.

22. Yes, the moral laws we keep are still in effect within themselves and we keep them because of who we are in Christ and his finished work. This is the new covenant context and not the old covenant context.

If morality is between man's relationship with man and not man's relationship with God, then the first four of the Ten Commandments are not moral laws, including the law against idolatry. However, if morality is also between man's relationship with God, then all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.

23. The law is forever for the jews because of their culture was totally intertwined with the whole law morals, sacrificial and civil in obedience to God. However, for a new covenant believing jew today who is really a part of the church the ethic of the law is still different because it in not to be of necessity to incur the judgement of the law. 2 Corinthians 9:7 shows this principle through giving in the new covenant on giving and the differences in the law of sowing and reaping. There is still a sowing sparingly shall reap sparingly and sowing bountiful shall reap bountiful. In the old covenant it effected your agriculture because of robbing God of tithes and offerings. This is what the whole nation was doing and were cursed with a curse in connection with the law. We are not under the specific mandatory curse of the law.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who abide in Christ, but those who abide in Christ, walk as he walked, bear much good fruit, etc., all in accordance with the law. We are free from the consequences of breaking it, but we are still left with holy, righteous, and good instructions to follow and are told to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct in accordance with it. By faith Paul delighted in God's law (Romans 7:22), so did David (Psalms 1:1-2), and so should we. Why would we ever not want to obey something that's holy, righteous, and good? We are not under the curse of the law, so only the blessings of the law are left.

24. We can still incur reaping sparingly because of not being obedient and not being a good stewardship but at the same time if one was good at business they can flourish despite not giving the tithe. Many preachers go overboard on this point to try and to get people to give. This teaches a doctrine of fear and that is not scriptural. Sowing and reaping laws under the old covenant was sowing and reaping the specific blessing or cursing of the law of Moses. In Jesus day, the message was sown and souls were reaped who received the message. This is what the 30, 60 and 100 fold were about in the KoH parables (Matthew 13:18-19; 23). 2 Corinthians 9 the message was sown though money was reaped. Even in this context had nothing to do with the financial needs of the church but the poor saint in Jerusalem. Actually the message could be sown sparingly or bountifully as well, but it was not the money that was sown to get blessed. Galatians speaks of sowing and reaping to the flesh or the Spirit (Galatians 6:7-8).

Jesus was not teaching anything new.

25. The point is that the law being abolished has to be understood in the fact of the whole ethic of rules, how they engaged in those rules of conduct and life, culturally with specific mandatory blessings and judgements and all the particular details of how they were effected to respond to performing the commandment and not because there are similar things or same things in a different context. Understanding the new covenant and how it was different than the old covenant and understanding the weakness of the old covenant and commandments in that context, though the law was holy and good; it will help understand the better promises of the new covenant and the greater glory compared to the glory of the old covenant and thus will help comprehend of how we live according to the commandments in the law of the Spirit and the new covenant and show us that we are not indeed to be lawless because of there not being a law.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I think that these are people who thought they were serving God, but who rationalized away their disobedience to Him, which is the same error the Corinthians made. If you love Jesus, then you will obey his commands, not find excuses for why they were given during some other dispensation or some other nonsense. Neither Jesus nor the Spirit were in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, but rather Jesus said he came only to do the Father's will and that his teaching was not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), and the role of the Spirit is to lead us on obedience to God's law. The law of Christ, the law of the Spirit, and the law of the Father are all exactly the same thing. You know what God says is a holy, righteous, good conduct and you know that we are told to have such a conduct, so whether you love God and whether you have faith in Him to lead you into having such a conduct is up to you.

26. The law of the Spirit is a higher law because though we have greater access to God and we do not have to deal with the yoke of bondage of the old covenant we will be judged by our secrets. How easy is it to miss the mark because we don't have to worry about the judgement of the law of Moses. Because of God's mercy law keepers in Romans 6 thought they could sin and the more they sinned the greater grace would be magnified and Paul said God forbid for how we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein. We are not to take advantage of God's grace by sinking into law mentality. They had a relaxed feeling because of no immediate and awful judgement of the Mosaic law and they could ask God for forgiveness without offering sacrifices.

Jesus compared his yoke to the yoke of the Pharisees, which included mountains of man-made traditions, and said that their yoke was a yoke of bondage, but either way, the yoke of a rabbi was how they taught to obey God's law, so you're under a yoke of the law. Jesus said his yoke will bring rest for your souls, quoting from Jeremiah 6:16-19, which is saying that obedience to God's law is the ancient way that brings rest for our souls. We are set free from sin to become slaves of obedience, leading to righteousness, and slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification (Romans 6:15-19). So we're slaves either way, but are you a slave to keeping God's law or are you a slave to breaking God's law? Christ set us free from sin, which is breaking God's law to become slaves of obedience to another.
 
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