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[MOVED]Are you lawless?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by ContraMundum, Aug 13, 2015.

  1. Wordkeeper

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    Your posts reveal all the poor scholarship of your group. And the total tolerance of its members to this ignorance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
  2. Acts24Fourteen

    Acts24Fourteen Newbie

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    I know of only one [person] that was "suspended" to "save lives" [from sin, 1 John 3:4], and that was Jesus Christ, upon the Cross of Calvary, because of the Transgression of His Holy law, the Ten Commandments, magnifying it forever, and making it honourable [Isaiah 42:21]. The death of Jesus Christ proves the immutability of God's Holy, Just, and Perfect Law, the Ten Commandments. God is Just and the Justifier...

    The Holy 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God suspended? Never. In the cases of the sick, injured, hurt, etc, it is "doing well" upon the Sabbath to bring relief from suffering, to save the life, etc. It is keeping the Sabbath, not suspending it in any form. It is not secular/profane/common [Leviticus 10:10; Nehemiah 13:17; Ezekiel 22:26; Ezekiel 44:23] work to do any of those things, but always in harmony with God's upholding and restorative work, that holy work, which Jesus Christ [also Father, and Holy Spirit] never ceases to do.

    Matthew 12:12 KJB - How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

    John 5:17 KJB - But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

    Jesus Christ quoted Isaiah 61 [breaking of sin] in Luke 4:17-19. Isaiah 61, is but the continuation of Isaiah 56 and 58. Read Isaiah 56:1 and Isaiah 56:8, then turn to John 10:16, and then turn back to Isaiah 56:2-7, and ask yourself what "covenant" is being referred to in the matter of "everlasting", "righteousness", "salvation" in connection with the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, the Holy 7th Day [in which Jesus Christ Himself rested in His death] and then continue with and onto Isaiah 58, and read the true fast from selfishness, and reliance upon self [hence we cease from secular labour, and rely moreso upon God in His Holy day], and the fulfillment of the law of love, in the matter of true Sabbath-keeping. Then turn over to Job 29 for the connection to the Third Angels message and the Latter Rain, of Revelation 18:1-3...

    Trample upon the Holy Sabbath Day, and a person tramples upon the Person who made it Holy, not only by His creation and blessing and hallowing it, but by His very life/death to save those from transgression of His Holy Law. They which do not rest, even against the Holy Commandment delivered unto them [2 Peter 2:21; Exodus 20:8-11], are seeking their own form of righteousness/law before God and are not ceased from the enmity toward God:

    Romans 8:7 KJV - Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

    And if they are not subject to the Law of the Kingdom, they are not subject to the King of the Kingdom and are still at war with Him, not at rest and atonement with Him. If they do not repent, even after knowing, they shall perish as traitors against love/charity, even as it is written:

    Philippians 3:18 KJB - (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:

    2 Peter 2:19 KJB - While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

    John 8:34 KJB - Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    1 John 3:4 KJB - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Acts 8:23 KJB - For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and [in] the bond of iniquity.

    Acts 4:24 KJB - And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou [art] God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

    Acts 14:15 KJB - And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

    Acts 14:16 KJB - Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

    Acts 17:30 KJB - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:​
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
  3. Wordkeeper

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    Did you even get the comprehension of the fact that Jesus was being accused of breaking the Sabbath?
     
  4. Acts24Fourteen

    Acts24Fourteen Newbie

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    That you seem to be taking the same exact position as the sinful pharisees in this matter, against Jesus, means that you, if it be so, have the same spirit of accusation as them. Are you accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath of the LORD God, as they did? If so, you are in danger brother, of following them to their destination. Please, think about what you are actually saying in taking the position that Jesus broke the Sabbath in any way:

    John 8:21 KJB - Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
    Who do you believe, them or Jesus?

    Isaiah 42:21 KJB - The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.

    John 15:10 KJB - "... I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."​

    The corrupted and self-centered Religious leaders, these particular pharisees, etc were the ones who had the spirit of their father the devil [John 8:44], being satan, the accuser [Revelation 12:10], and accused Jesus of many things, falsely, and in misunderstanding, even as they had of John the Baptist [the herald of the First Advent], for in their hearts they were the murderers, transgressing the commandments, they were the true Sabbath breakers, while Christ Jesus restored it to what it was always meant to be:

    Matthew 11:18 KJB - For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

    Luke 7:33 KJB - For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
    They were accusers of Him who is without sin, the innocent blood:

    John 18:29 KJV - Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?​

    They accused Him of Blasphemy:

    Matthew 26:65 KJB - Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

    Mark 14:64 KJB - Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

    John 10:33 KJB - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.​

    They falsely accused Jesus of being a "winebibber", a "drunkard" and "gluttonous":

    Matthew 11:19 KJB - The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

    Luke 7:34 KJB - The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!​

    They falsely accused Him of being devil possessed:

    Mark 3:22 KJB - And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

    John 7:20 KJB - The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

    John 8:48 KJB - Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

    John 8:52 KJB - Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

    John 10:20 KJB - And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

    John 10:21 KJB - Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?​

    They falsely accused Him of casting out devils by the devil:

    Matthew 12:24 KJB - But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.​

    They falsely accused Him of being a seditious rebel, like Barabbas, perverting the nation:

    Luke 23:2 KJB - And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this [fellow] perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

    Luke 23:5 KJB - And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.​

    They falsely accused Him of being not of God:

    John 9:16 KJB - Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
    Yet, Jesus said of Himself:

    John 8:49 KJB - Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.​

    Others said, even as True witnesses [compared to the false witnesses], even later His own enemies:

    "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners" [Hebrews 7:26]

    that "holy thing" [Luke 1:35]

    and "holy child" [Acts 4:27,30]

    born of the "Holy Ghost" [Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35],

    where even though He came in the likeness [Romans 8:3; Philippians 2:7; etc] of sinful flesh, yet He was without sin:

    "...lamb shall be without blemish..." [Exodus 12:5]

    "… But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none." [Matthew 26:60]

    "...the innocent blood..." [Matthew 27:4]

    "...For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. ..." [Matthew 27:18]

    "… Have thou nothing to do with that just man …" [Matthew 27:19]

    "… Why, what evil hath he done? …" [Matthew 27:23]

    "… I am innocent of the blood of this just person …" [Matthew 27:24]

    "The said Pilate … I find no fault in this man.” [Luke 23:4]

    "… Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:" [Luke 23:14]

    "… what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him ..." [Luke 23:22]

    "...lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him." [Luke 23:15]

    "...this man hath done nothing amiss." [Luke 23:41]

    "… Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man." [Luke 23:47]

    "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." [John 9:31]

    "...I have kept my Father's commandments..." [John 15:10]

    "...I find in him no fault [at all]." [John 18:38]

    "...I find no fault in him." [John 19:4]

    "...I find no fault in him." [John 19:6]

    "...the obedience of one..." [Romans 5:19]

    "...who knew no sin..." [2 Corinthians 5:21]

    "...without sin." [Hebrews 4:15]

    "...[who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners..." [Hebrews 7:26]

    "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:" [1 Peter 2:22]

    "...in him is no sin." [1 John 3:5]

    "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God..." [Hebrews 9:4;p]
    The scripture declares who the real sinners and Sabbath breakers were, it was those murderous and plotting pharisees, who while seeking to accuse Jesus, to find fault with Him, and plotted against Him how they might overcome Him, and to kill Jesus upon the Sabbath are seen in their stark and hateful contrast to the compassionate, loving restorer and Saviour of life, Jesus Christ, who in His work, healed, delivered, saved, restored, gave rest to those in pain, suffering, mourning, shewing mercy, demonstrating the fulfillment of love, etc upon the Sabbath, showing all mankind the perfect loving example of what True Sabbath keeping was to be.

    Jesus healed a man lame in his legs for 38 years [John 5:5] [even as Israel in the wilderness for 38 years; Deuteronomy 2:14], because of sin. Jesus is looking to heal our walk upon the Sabbath, leading us back in the Way of God, His Commandments, Honouring our Father in Heaven, calling the Sabbath a delight, Honourable, Honouring Him in it [Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 20:12], that we may be able to walk once more with Him upon the Sabbath in righteousness, as it was from Creation.

    Jesus healed a man with a withered hand in the gathering upon Sabbath [Matthew 12:9-15; Mark 3:1-6; Luke 6:6-11], and it was the "right hand" [thus a connection to the Seal and Mark]. This man, a church [Acts 7:38] goer, was crippled in his right hand, thus as we see, he represents those in the church whose right hand is withered, their obedience to the Commandments of God is withered, crippled, their actions enfeebled in true service, and yet Jesus would come to them and heal their limp and lifeless service to Him, and make it vibrant again. The right hand is also connected to God's Law, being then also connected to the Seal of the Living God, and also to the Mark of the Beast, for those who take the Mark of the Beast, shall indeed receive a crippling mark in the right hand, for they will have forsaken the right way, and chosen the commandments of men over the Commandments of God, and remain as sinners in the bondage, chains of sin.

    Jesus healed a blind man [John 9:1-41] on the Sabbath, restoring the sight not only physically, but also spiritually, so that He could not only see the Saviour physically, but also see that He was truly the Saviour, the Messiah, the Christ, the sent of God. As it is written, Laodicea is blind [Revelation 3:17-18], and needs also the restoring and saving power of Jesus Christ to heal them, from their own blindness, that they may see the beauty of Christ Jesus, the LORD of the Sabbath, and what ought needs be done therein. Turn to Isaiah 58 and Isaiah 61 and Job 29, and read wherein the healing of the sight needs to happen, so that the blind may see again the glory of the LORD, and see their fellow man, lost in sin and in suffering, and take the Everlasting Gospel to them. Jesus did this very thing in Luke 4:17-32]. If any choose to remain blind as the pharisees of old, they will fall into the ditch, for that ditch, spiritually, is the "whore" [Proverbs 23:27], and her harlot daughters, and that "whore" is found in Revelation 17:1-18, Revelation 19:2. Her mark is the false sabbath - "sunday". God's Seal is the 7th Day of which the Holy Spirit seals those who love God and keep His Commandments with.

    Jesus is looking to restore the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God to this world [as so many have forgotten it, trample upon its sacred hours, and upon Him who makes it Holy], and to give them rest, from sin [1 John 3:4].

    It truly is amazing, that those that fight and war against God and resist Him in keeping the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD [Jesus] thy God Holy, thus desecrating it, do all in their power to tear that single Holy Commandment from the heart of God's Law, and say all manner of things in contradiction to one another, presenting all manner of "lame" excuses, arguments to continue in sin [1 John 3:4] in spite of the grace of God [Romans 6:1], but none of them in that treasonous apostasy [against the Kingdom, Law of God's own government] and open rebellion, agree with one another over it, except in their hatred of it, even as they had over the LORD of it:

    Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put Him to death; (Matthew 26:59)

    But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, [yet] found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, (Matthew 26:60)

    For many bare false witness against Him, but their witness agreed not together. (Mark 14:56)

    And there arose certain, and bare false witness against Him, saying, (Mark 14:57)

    But neither so did their witness agree together. (Mark 14:59)​

    "... [Page 208] Jesus repelled the charge of blasphemy. My authority, He said, for doing the work of which you accuse Me, is that I am the Son of God, one with Him in nature, in will, and in purpose. In all His works of creation and providence, I co-operate with God. “The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do.” The priests and rabbis were taking the Son of God to task for the very work He had been sent into the world to do. By their sins they had separated themselves from God, and in their pride were moving independently of Him. They felt sufficient in themselves for all things, and realized no need of a higher wisdom to direct their acts. But the Son of God was surrendered to the Father’s will, and dependent upon His power. So utterly was Christ emptied of self that He made no plans for Himself. He accepted God’s plans for Him, and day by day the Father unfolded His plans. So should we depend upon God, that our lives may be the simple outworking of His will.

    When Moses was about to build the sanctuary as a dwelling place for God, he was directed to make all things according to the pattern shown him in the mount. Moses was full of zeal to do God’s work; the most talented, skillful men were at hand to carry out his suggestions. Yet he was not to make a bell, a pomegranate, a tassel, a fringe, a curtain, or any vessel of the sanctuary, except according to the pattern shown him. God called him into the mount, and revealed to him the heavenly things. The Lord covered him with His own glory, that he might see [Page 208-209] the pattern, and according to it all things were made. So to Israel, whom He desired to make His dwelling place, He had revealed His glorious ideal of character. The pattern was shown them in the mount when the law was given from Sinai, and when the Lord passed by before Moses and proclaimed, “The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.” Exodus 34:6, 7.

    Israel had chosen their own ways. They had not builded according to the pattern; but Christ, the true temple for God’s indwelling, molded every detail of His earthly life in harmony with God’s ideal. He said, “I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart.” Psalm 40:8. So our characters are to be builded “for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:22. And we are to “make all things according to the pattern,” even Him who “suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps.” Hebrews 8:5; 1 Peter 2:21. [Page 209] ..." - The Desire of Ages, Page 208-209, selected portions, by Ellen G White [Messenger of the LORD [Jesus]]. - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ng=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=208

    1 John 3:4 KJB - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    1 John 3:5 KJB - And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

    1 John 3:6 KJB - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    1 John 3:7 KJB - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    1 John 3:8 KJB - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    1 John 3:9 KJB - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    1 John 3:10 KJB - In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    1 John 3:11 KJB - For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

    1 John 3:12 KJB - Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

    1 John 3:13 KJB - Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.​
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
  5. Wordkeeper

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    So I'm right. You didn't understand the passage, and you didn't understand my question.


    I'll try one last time, and then I'll have to conclude that you have a problem with comprehension and are not fit to take part in discussions.


    This is the situation:



    Jesus was trying to explain that there are circumstances when obeying the law is wrong.


    There are two types of laws, the law written on stone and the law written on the heart.


    The Law written on the heart says always do good.


    The Law written on stone tells us how to do good.


    For example, the Sabbath law tells Israel to avoid doing work on the Sabbath.


    How is it telling Israel to do good? Because it is a picture of how God will send His Son so that we will rest from our striving to put to death the deeds of the body.


    Colossians 2:13Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. 17These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

    http://www.ldolphin.org/sabbathrest.html

    Quote
    This is exactly what happened with these Old Testament shadows, including the Sabbath. When the Lord came, and his work was ended, making possible the true fulfillment of God's intention in the Sabbath, the picture was no longer needed. The weekly sabbath ended at the cross. Paul specifically says this. In the letter to the Colossians he confirms it to us.

    In Chapter 2, beginning with Verse 13, he says,

    And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it [not him; it, the cross].Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

    That should make it clear. This is why the claims of the Seventh Day Adventists, the Seventh Day Baptists, and other groups, that Christians changed the sabbath, are absurd, ridiculous. They claim that the Pope changed the sabbath by a papal edict from Saturday to Sunday, and that around the third or fourth century Christians began to celebrate Sunday rather than Saturday, out of obedience to this papal edict. But nothing could be further from the truth. History does not corroborate that in any degree. The Sabbath has always been Saturday and it always will be. It is the seventh day of the week. Sunday has always been the first day of the week. It has never been a sabbath, and it is pure legalism to call it a sabbath or to treat it as one. It is not a day of rest or restricted activity and it is not designed as such. It is the first day of the week; to Christians, the Lord's day.The shadow-sabbath ended at the cross, as Paul has made clear.

    The next day was the day of resurrection, the day when the Lord Jesus came from the tomb. On that day a new day began -- the Lord's day. Christians immediately began to observe the Lord's day on the first day of the week. They ceased observing the Sabbath because it was ended by the fulfillment of its reality in the cross, and they began to observe the first day of the week. This is what you find reflected in the book of Acts. Justin Martyr, who writes from the 2nd century, says,

    But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, when he changed the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ, our Savior, on the same day, rose from the dead.…….



    Israel was supposed to tell this to the Gentiles, be a light to them, a bearer of oracles, a giver of prophecies, a revealer of the way that God would save mankind, so that the nations around her would turn to God and be saved.


    Did this really work? When? How?


    This really did work.


    Israel did not work on the Sabbath, did not collect manna.


    The manna they had collected on the previous day, which normally would spoil, did not spoil, and many people, like Rahab and the Gibeonites saw this and turned to God.


    Israel had believed God, showed how God would give rest by sending His Son, they had heard with faith, and God had given His Spirit, who did miracles amongst His People, and they had been a blessing to the Gentiles, by turning them to God.


    Galatians 3:5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?


    Are there situations where this will not work? Yes. Sometimes observing the law would not be a good act, just as red lights can stop an ambulance from reaching the hospital. Observing the Sabbath according to the letter of the law, not taking out a farm animal that fell into a pit, could be an act which prevented doing good. In this situation, the proper way to obey God's law would be to suspend the keeping of the Sabbath, and rescue the animal.


    That is what Jesus did. He suspended the keeping of the Sabbath and rescued the man who came for healing.


    That is what the priests in the Temple do. They suspend the keeping of Sabbath and serve the people who came for spiritual healing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I am surprised that this rumor is still going on that Christians do not follow Laws. It is unfortunate to see that in action but there are a lot of things brought up that try to make distinctions in order to ensure that there's a clear "Us vs. Them" when both overlap. Thanks for the thread
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Heb 8
    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
    8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
    9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

    The NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 demands that we look at the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.





    God's Law was never made for man to break/tweak/edit. That is Christ's entire point in Mark 7:6-13

    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


    So then James 2 says "to break one is to break them all"

    =================================================

    What about D.L. Moody? does he reject those Bible texts? Does he cast a "we - they" argument out there?

    D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed on page 1 of this CF thread Oct 19, 2015 #1 ??

    http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

    BY THE
    DWIGHT L. MOODY
    The Ten Commandments:
    Exodus 20:2-17
    .

    The Fourth Commandment


    Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.

    [FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

    I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
    "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
    It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was
    - in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.
    How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

    =========================================================

    Question -- is it ok to argue that same point as a Bible Sabbath - 7th day Sabbath - keeping Christian -- or is it only "ok" as long as you keep Sunday?
     
  8. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    contramundum,

    1. There was law in every age and there is today.

    2. Some believe that there was no grace until Jesus came because he was full of grace and truth and the law was wrath. They also believe there was no faith because the law was not of faith. Others believe that the law was not taught by Jesus but, the new covenant instead because he was to bring in the new covenant and so when he talked about love this marked the new dispensation. Many others believe if the law was abolished then it is an oxymoron because they assume it means that morals are out the window or else some think it is impossible to abolish moral laws and retain law at all.

    3. All of these are misunderstood because of not understanding the context of the word concerning the mechanics of the covenants and what they involve.

    4. God is the moral governor of the universe and there must be a moral law for freewill moral agents to obey.

    5. When Cain killed Abel there was no written law for murder but what ever they did according to their conscience that was contained in the written law of Moses later was a law unto themselves. Romans 2:14.

    6. The written law of Moses had a blessing and cursing system of specific judgements attached to them. There were 613 laws and more than a 1000 and more statutes and commandments to keep.

    7. When Christ was on earth he fulfilled what was prophesied about him in the law of Moses and he fulfilled the types and shadows concerning his Messiahship. Matthew 5:17 says he came to fulfill the law and not destroy it.
    When Christ was rejected and he was ready to be the sacrificial lamb which was his ultimate goal to begin with he satisfied the law and its purpose for that period. Romans 10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    Jews believe that this didn't mean the law was abolished it was just the end for righteousness. This is understandable because the law was for the jew forever and their culture was all wrapped up in they types and the shadows etc.
    At the same time the law of the old covenant was one whole unit and it is the overall mechanics of the ethic that comes into play and why the whole law was abolished. This is also why the scriptures say, the law was until the seed should come. Galatians 3:19.

    8. The law not of faith doesn't mean that the jews were not to have faith because Habbakuk said; The just shall live by faith is confirmed in the new testament as well.
    The law was of wrath because of the judgement. All it could say was thou shalt not and bless or curse depending on what choice the person made.

    9. As far as love marking a new dispensation in Jesus ministry is untrue because the 2 greatest commandment had to do with love in; Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, and soul and thy neighbor as thyself. Also, the law was until the seed should come is not a time factor because Hebrews 9:16-17 said a testament is no good without the death of the testator. This also shows that though Jesus showed mercy and spoke with authority but these don't mean that he taught the new covenant because the jews didn't understand the death, burial, and resurrection message until they rejected him. John 6 and Matthew 18 shows this with Jesus telling them to eat his flesh and drink his blood and Peter said he wouldn't let anyone kill him. This doesn't mean that there was a different gospel as much as a different revelation in each age.

    10. In every age people were saved by grace through faith. But believing was in the revelation they had which was different in each age. Redemption has always been in the light of a sacrifice going back to Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel.

    11. Genesis 3:15 was the first prophecy about the Messiah and redemption in Adam and Eve's day. Cain and Abel was their conscience and an animal sacrifice to be accepted by God. Abraham believed in righteousness by faith because he believed in God and was justified by works when he was ready to sacrifice Isaac because it showed he really believed by faith what God told him by word of his mouth.

    12. The law of Moses had types and shadows as their revelation to lead them to Christ so they could be justified by faith. When Christ came, who was faith they no longer needed the law as a schoolmaster for the reality was there. However, the criteria for salvation of the jew in Jesus day was believing in him as the Messiah to be born of water and the spirit. The water historically was the Red Sea deliverance for the future would be the Spirit. This is because they were baptized in the cloud and the sea. 1 Corinthians 10:4. The 2nd time was recorded in Ezekiel 36:26-27 when they would be given a new spirit and a new heart by the term sprinkling clean water in verse 25.

    13. The law was abolished in this context. The law had a weakness in that the commandment could not save a person, it could only say, Thou shalt not and it could not help a person perform the commandment.
    The law was holy and good, but the law of sin and death took advantage of it and made the jew live in self effort more than believing by faith and they lived in the frailty of man in sin more than overcoming. Israel is the greatest example of failure because of this weakness.

    14. 2 Corinthians 3:1-16 shows the 10 commandments the ministration of death and how the glory was fading away. This fading away is recorded in Hebrews 8:13. Israel couldn't stand to see the law abolished because it was their whole life and this is why Moses had the veil over his head which shows the jews have the veil over their head for the most part to this day in the reading of the old testament.

    15. Since the 10 commandments are the overall scope of the law or at least morally and because they are grouped in 3 segments I will use this context of comprehending the abolishment of the whole law. Also, James says that if one offend in the law he has broken the whole law.

    16. The sacrificial laws are easy to see and understand being abolished because Christ was to be the sacrifice for the whole world and this is why he came to earth. John the Baptist proclaimed, Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world even though John didn't understand it all.

    17. Colossians 2:14-15 said he blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. This is basically understood as the sacrificial laws such as the blood of bulls and goats and divers washing etc. Hebrews 9:9-10. Colossians is spoken in the context of circumcision which was the sign of the law in the days of Abraham. We are now circumcised spiritually with a circumcision made without hands.

    18. The civil law was administered by the Sanhedrin of the laws that were broken and gave the appropriate judgement or blessing for those who kept certain laws.
    The civil law according to Paul in 1 Timothy says the law is now for the disobedient. It doesn't mean christians do not have civil laws to abide by but we are not to be disobedient or subdued by the law because of being who we are in Christ we automatically are obedient and not a rebel by nature. Because of Christ finished work and his power of an endless life we can overcome due to better promises. It doesn't make us perfect or that we cannot be disobedient but we have greater access to God and better promises of the new covenant versus the old covenant.

    19. The moral law being done away with is said to be impossible in any way because it would destroy morals completely.
    As I said to begin with, God is the moral governor of the universe and moral subjects have to have a moral law to abide with.

    20. Because the old covenant had weakness of the commandment and the new covenant was built on better promises and because the law is spiritual the mechanics of the covenant make it possible for moral law to be abolished. The correct phrasing would be the moral law according to the old covenant of the Mosaic ethic.

    21. For example, adultery was wrong in each age. The judgements were different in each age. In the age of the Mosaic law people were stoned and today we are not. The curse was lifted and that is true according to Galatians but because of self effort and the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law that was holy and good it made them sin. As much defeated type of thinking about sin in many church circles indicates their outlook back then and why Peter said it was a yoke of bondage that they or their fathers could not bear when they were trying to decide how to handle the saved gentiles at the council in the early church. Acts 15:10.

    22. Today the law is written in our minds and hearts and what is stated in the new covenant is the law of our hearts.

    23. The new covenant can be looked at as a will. It can be filled with the same basic things with the same basic meaning, for sin is always wrong. The sabbath was not a moral law as such as do not kill, etc. This doesn't mean we don't observe the sabbath but it is not mandatory on one certain day for everyday is a sabbath and the Lord is the Lord of the sabbath and said through Paul they were not to be judged for things of that nature. He talks about being subject to ordinances as though living in the world or rules in Colossians 2:20. In verse 21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Verse 22; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? This same word ordinances many carry the same ordinances in Colossians 2:14-15. If this is true then this would prove the whole law was nailed to the cross because ordinance means rules.

    24. Going back to the will context, there can be new things in the will and some from the old that have a different slant because of the mechanics of how one was made to respond to it and the perception and understanding as well as to the result.
    So saying the Mosaic law could not be abolished is not true in the proper context. It also doesn't mean that there is no law at all to abide by.
    I know this was long but I was trying to be as thorough as possible. God bless!. Jerry kelso
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Exegesis means that we look at the author and their readers to help understand what they meant. Jer 31:31-33 is the New Covenant "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" - what "Law" did Jeremiah and his readers know about - law that defined what sin is?

    Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
    Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
    And Paul says the unit of TEN remains valid for NT saints.
    Eph 6:2 "Honor your father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - "First" in what unit of LAW? Only the TEN Commandments.

    The Ten Commandments are part of that moral law that defines what sin is as we see in Romans 7 and James 2.

    Texts like " for everyday is a sabbath" don't exist in the actual Bible

    Col 2 is not about deleting scripture - it is about deleting the "commandments of men".

    Col 2
    20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
    21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
    23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

    scripture is not - "the commandments and teachings of men"

    Commandments of men - rejected EVEN when the stuff they are making up has to do with a Bible topic as is the case in Mark 2:20-28 where they add their own "stuff" to the Sabbath commandment.


    "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

    The first 4 commandments are included in the moral code that deals with Deut 6:5 - Love for God.
    The last 6 commandments are included in the moral code that deals with Lev 19:18 - love for your neighbor.

    For all eternity

    "from new moon to new moon AND from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

    The LAW is not nailed to the cross in Col 2 -- our "certificate of debt" is nailed to the cross instead. Thus upholding the LAW.

    "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW" Rom 3:31
    "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
    "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Here is the wording for the "certificate of debt" paid - our transgressions/sins forgiven... debt paid

    Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.


    4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

    6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

    8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

    16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    In reality I have never met a Christian that didn't live by laws. But some TALK like they do, and that's where they get the bad rap.
     
  12. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    bobryan,

    1. Exegesis is looking at the context of the author and it is also reconciling the scriptures together to harmonize and not contradict each other.

    2. You have missed the whole point about the context of the ethic and the mechanics of the covenant itself.
    The jews did know the written law and I noted this and I also stated they didn't believe the law was abolished because their whole life was wrapped up in it culturally as well as through the types and the shadows. By the law was knowledge of sin and Romans points this out that this was the purpose. This shows the laws purpose for the time being and agrees with the law was until the seed (Messiah) shall come. I never said the law within itself was abolished because I said sin was always sin. Killing was wrong in Cain's day but there was no written judgement of stoning the person to death like in the law of Moses. There was an eye for eye and a tooth for tooth but not a mandatory judgement.

    3. People in the antediluvian period were dealt with by their conscience and we still have a conscience but it is not what we understand about sin or how we respond to different things alone in the same context. We have greater revelation today than just conscience just like the law keepers in Moses day.

    4. Every law of the 10 commandments is still valid as a moral law within itself today as much as before the law of Moses. Killing is still wrong, Adultery is still wrong, etc., etc. The sabbath was a part of the 10 but was not actually moral but I never said we don't observe it for we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. The ethic in the old covenant was that you sinned if you didn't observe it and reaped a judgement. Today we reap no mandatory judgement for not observing the sabbath and there was more than one sabbath. Every 7 years they had a 1 year sabbath but we don't do this and get into trouble for it. If you want to perform the Mosaic law you will have to perform 630 laws and a 1000 or more statutes and commandments. Try that and you will change your mind about what it means to perform the law of Moses and you will understand what Peter meant by it being a yoke of bondage.

    5. You ask about what unit of law and this would cover the context of law and what encompasses the way of life through the rules. Because of being moral which is spiritual in itself the old covenant and the new covenant are close in relation. Because of the ethic and the rule of life being different they are at opposite end of the polars and this is why the law was wrath and not of faith. Read your bible and understand the context.

    6. Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; and Ephesians 6:2 are valid in the context of the old covenant as far as within itself of loving God, your neighbor as yourself, and honor your father and mother but it is not the same as the context of the new testament connected to the overall ethic and written judgement if you fail to do these things. If a child sassed his parents he could be stoned literally but this is not a mandatory judgement today. You would have to agree even though I am sure you think that it is mere semantics, even though it is not.
    7. Romans 7 and James 2 I agree with the moral aspect in itself. However, the law in Romans 7 which was the old covenant and was holy and good was taken advantage of by the law of sin and death and made them live to the frailty of man and sin. In Romans 8:2 the law of sin and death was done away with by the law of the Spirit and cannot take advantage of the commandment "Thou shalt not" because of the finished work of Christ. At the same time it can take advantage in our lives if we live according to the spirit of the law of the old ethic and not the spirit of the new covenant law because the old ethic is the letter of the law which Paul says kills in 2 Corinthians 3. Read your bible and understand the context.
    James 2 shows that if a jew broke the law in one respect he broke all the law because it was one unit and they could not be blessed totally unless they lived the whole law perfectly.

    8. I didn't say the phrase, " everyday is a sabbath" is a plain statement but in a scripture with the proper context Paul says do not judge another about their sabbaths, drinks, etc. because this was all part of the culture of the law and the culture of Ephesus is many ways from a paganistic slant for they worshipped Diana and other false Gods. They understood things of this nature and Paul didn't want them to live under the rudiments of the world as he stated in the mandatory routine way that bring forth the old law mindset. In 1 Corinthians 9 talking about the law of sowing and reaping and giving was not of necessity or grudgingly. This was a commandment in the old covenant and it would sometimes tend to make them respond in the wrong manner. This doesn't mean that it was meant for that purpose because the law was the best God gave the jews which was above the gentiles. This is why I mentioned that the new covenant doesn't make us perfect but it was built on better promises in many respects other that just the sacrificial laws. One needs to understand these things and not just a surface understanding of the difference between law and grace.

    9. I said the same thing as ordinances of the world and did not disagree with. At the same time the context was couched in and connected to the Mosaic law of not judging a christian about their sabbaths and drinks etc.
    I also said if the definition of ordinance was the same as in Colossians 2:14 and 15 it could denote the whole law being nailed to the cross and not just sacrificial which is the normal interpretation. Exegesis is understanding the whole of the context. There are usually two sides to the coin and you have to determine which one is right or if both of them are and in what respect connected to the context. Mark 2:20-28 was to the jews who were under the Mosaic law and the gentiles were never under the Mosaic law. Learn context!. You said that you believed exegesis was understanding what the author was saying what they meant and this includes the context. You are not following what you say you believe.

    10. I agree with 1 John 3:4 and I have already explained the difference of the moral law within itself and being couched in different contexts.

    11. Isaiah 66:23 is talking about the earthly kingdom when it becomes in perfect harmony with the whole physical Kingdom of God universal. All the nations will be commanded to worship God and come to Jerusalem. They will also se the carcases of the men that have transgressed against the Lord for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. This is not talking about the church in the church age today. Proper context.

    12. There is no certificate of debt stated in that scripture. In one respect, Christ didn't pay a debt and was not a substitute. What I mean by this is that Christ gave his life freely and if he paid the debt then everyone would be saved. This is the mentality of the penal substitutionary theory held by many christians.
    Jesus was not a substitute in the fact that he was the only choice to be able to save the world and we could have never and were never able to be the sacrifice.
    Christians use this theory to prove sins forgiven past, present, and future to the extreme.
    At the same time Christ was a ransom and satisfied the penalty for sin. Paying the price was not like in a cash transaction as some would believe. The price was suffering on the cross.

    13. Romans 3:31; the context is the law of Moses and its purpose and weaknesses and the new covenant better promises.

    14. We are not justified by the works of the law but by faith and this is true. The old covenant elect had to perform the commandment in order to be blessed and so keeping the commandments never saved a person to begin with. Purification of sin rites were mandatory and represented a cleansing which was connected to the divers washings which was a form of water baptism and was abolished at Calvary. So the law could not save a person and Romans 7 shows the law could only say "Thou shalt not" and not make them do the commandment or not do it.

    15. The jews believe the sinful works of the law was done away with but this is only half truth. Under the spirit of the law of Moses in the wrong way can make a person under the new covenant live to the frailty of man and the sinful works. Paul was saying we have a better way than the weakness of the law of Moses resulted in but it doesn't mean that a new covenant believer couldn't get back in that same state as the old covenant believer. Paul always used old testament examples to warn new covenant believers of falling into the same pitfalls of sinful belief and works and resulting in a not so good result. 1 Corinthians 10:4 is just one example.

    16. Going back to Romans 3, Paul tells us that God is the God of jews and gentiles and seeing it is one God which shall justify the circumcision by faith and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    17. The old covenant law could not make void the new covenant coming to pass which was a different law than Moses according to Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13 which came out of Egypt.
    It is talking about the purpose of circumcision of faith which the law of Moses was not of faith. But the type and shadow of circumcision was about salvation. The people under the law were physically circumcised and it was the sign of the old covenant and was mandatory or else they sinned against the law. Today, we are spiritually circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands. Paul said that and he knew the law of Moses upside down and said he was perfect according to the law more than others outside of the fact of misunderstanding about Calvary before he got saved and though he was being a God pleaser by getting rid of the sinners that were opposed to the living of the old covenant of the law.

    18. Paul said the jews who were of the circumcision and the old covenant didn't attain to the promise of the new covenant because they didn't have faith. Romans 9:31; But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Verse 32; Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone; Verse 33; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence; and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    19. Even though the law of righteousness of Moses was not the same as the new covenant in its totality they still could have attained if they would have accepted it by faith. All they knew was the law of Moses and its ethic and they had to still have faith to be accepted by the Messiah and believe in him to be eligible to receive the kingdom and be saved according to the kingdom of God in their revelation. Then Christ would save them by writing his law into their minds and hearts in the context of the new covenant because they didn't understand about the death, burial, and resurrection in the same respect as we do today. John 6 and Matthew 16 shows this. They only knew the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God message and once Israel rejected that message Christ started revealing more about his death and resurrection. Even after the resurrection the disciples still didn't fully grasp the truth of what happened and this is why he had to expound what the old testament law of moses said about him.

    20. Because of the fact of what circumcision stood for in the types and shadows under the old covenant and what it means in the reality of the new covenant we establish the law of salvation and also the whole of the ethic of the commandments of the spirit of the law and not the letter under the guise of the new covenant.

    21. Now I have answered all your objections in detail and proper context according to the scripture and its logic.

    22. You don't have to agree but you don't have to misunderstand if you will be fair in understanding context of what the scripture says and what is actually being said.
    Because of people's perception of what a phrase is said in a certain way causes misunderstandings and dismiss many time what is the truth of the context.

    23. For example prophecy in Revelation 12 can have 3 or more different contexts and basically be right in their own context but not necessarily in the scriptural context. Learn context and be fair in what I am saying because there is a difference in the moral law within itself and the differences of ethic that effect its response and outcome even though the basic definition and result can be the same. At least you ought to be able to understand and think before you deduce what I have said as saying one thing when it is not true. Exegesis must be looked at the whole picture of the immediate context and other contexts outside of it that will effect the overall context of the biblical perspective. Jerry kelso
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Hi Jerry -

    1. The Sabbath commandment is part of the TEN - true. Everyone on both sides of the discussion admits to it.
    2. Not a moral issue to rebell against God's Word in that commandment?? really?? that would be - false.. See James 2. Binding obligation based on "He who said..." even in that unit of Ten.
    3. You claim we "observe it" -- we what does God actually say in His Commandment?

    A. "Worship any one day in 7 that you like"??? No.
    B. "THE Seventh day - IS the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God" ?? -- yes.

    The 4th commandment does not say "assemble on any day you like as often as you want... just so long as you assemble" -- as we all know.


    Except for that way that Jesus condemns doing such a thing in Matt 5.

    Matt 5
    17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    does not allow for editing/downsizing/tweaking

    And Christ again condemns it in Mark 7

    Mark 7
    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


    Obligation base on "He who said" -- in James 2 -- does not allow for editing/downsizing/tweaking

    James 2
    8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
    9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
    10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
    11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.



    The Law - in Romans 2 - includes the Ten Commandments.

    Rom 2
    21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
    22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
    23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?




    Not in Eden. Not in Gen 2:1-3, Not in Ex 20:8-11. The annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 were not made in the Ex 20:11 creation week event.


    Eph 6:2
    2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

    In what "unit of LAW" do we have condition that the 5th commandment is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise"

    hint: it is not the 5 books of Moses - there are many promises in Genesis before Ex 20:12


    Yes - what unit is Paul referencing - that has the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with promise" - most people who oppose God's Ten Commandments will not offer the simple answer to that simple question.

    Simple question - what unit is Paul referencing - that has the 5th commandment as "the first commandment with promise" ??

    This is a detail that Paul brings up in Eph 6:2 for his readers. What is he referencing? What do they think is the "FIRST commandment with a promise"??

    Here is a hint for the reader.

    Acts 17:11 "they studied the SCRIPTURES daily to SEE IF those things (spoken to them by Paul) were SO"

    I look forward to your response.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Eph 6:2 - is affirming the continuation not only of Ex 20:12 but also the unit of law that is contained in.



    1. Sadly for that argument James 2 appeals to the very "thou shalt not" detail you claim he should not appeal to.


    James 2
    8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture,You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
    9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
    10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
    11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

    Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
    John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

    The same Moral law is contained in both OC and NC -- the difference is that under the OC for mankind - the law is external - and mankind is lost - for "all have sinned". But under the NEW Covenant the moral law of God is internal - the Commandments of God - internal. And the born again saint has a new nature in harmony with God.

    In Romans 8 Paul says the lost "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" - and contrasts that with the saints who walk in obedience instead of rebellion.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

    16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

    That statement is incorrect in every point it makes.

    1. Certificate of Debt -- 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

    2. Christ IS our substutionary atoning sacrifice: See Isaiah 53:8
    8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;

    And as for His generation, who considered
    That He was cut off out of the land of the living
    For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?...
    10 But the Lord was pleased
    To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
    If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,

    He will see His offspring,
    He will prolong His days,
    And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
    1 John 2: 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    3. The Atoning Sacrifice is an "Atonement" model not the grocery store model that we find in Calvinism. The Atonement model of the Gospel is based on Lev 16 - the Day of Atonement - the High Priestly work of Christ - and allows for the Matt 18 concept of "Forgiveness revoked" just as we see in Ezekiel 18.

    Indeed you do get that part correct - and of course that is why Paul refers to our "Certificate of DEBT" nailed to the cross.


    That is true -- "Do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

    It is that continued - binding - authorotative LAW of God that Paul says in Romans 3 - binds the entire world - all mankind shown to be sinners - all lost - all in need of a savior. that Law defines sin.

    Rom 3
    19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND - not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" -- speaks of the "making" of both at creation week. So also does Ex 20:11 point us back to that fact.

    As for all eternity in the future - in the New Earth - "From new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath - shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship". Two cycles not one "daily" continuation. Two cycles to "come before the Lord" --- not a "Daily REMAIN before the Lord". And of course no text of scripture allows these two cycles to be munged into "daily"


    Indeed - on these two recurring cycles all mankind come to the New Jerusalem of Rev 20 and 21 for worship. The scope for the Sabbath even in the OT - included the Gentiles - just as we see in Isaiah 56.


    That is for all eternity in the NEW earth of Is 66 and Rev 22 - so then "all mankind" and long after the cross it is still to be observed.

    As for contact with what remains of the wicked --

    Mal 4
    3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

    That is all that is left of them after the Rev 20 Lake of Fire event - but that is another topic.
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    It's not a matter of saying that there are circumstances when obeying the law is wrong, but that the law was never intended to prevent a certain action. For instance, when the command to circumcise infants on the 8th day happens to fall on the Sabbath, it was ruled that the Sabbath was never intended to prevent their circumcision. Likewise the Sabbath was never intended to be used as a reason not to do good. So Jesus never advocated lawlessly violating the Sabbath, but rather he taught how to correctly keep the Sabbath, which sometimes violated man's rules for how keep the Sabbath.
     
  18. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    bobryan,

    1. The sabbath was a part of the 10 commandments from the old covenant and we are not under the old covenant and you know that and Hebrews 8:6-7 tells us this.

    2. The moral aspect I never said according to being a commandment to keep or not keep. I said moral in the same aspect of killing, committing adultery etc. of moral sins that will damn you to hell. In Galatians 5 the works of the flesh are shown and not keeping the sabbath is not in there as a work of the flesh to keep you from heaven. I know you are 7th day adventist and for the most part many 7th day adventist believe you won't go to heaven if you don't keep the sabbath because they connect it to taking the mark of the beast. This is not scriptural for the works of the flesh or the mark of the beast.

    3. James 2; the royal law is the law of love. Jesus said the 2 greatest commandments of the law was love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind and soul and thy neighbor as thyself.

    4. James is talking to the scattered tribes of jews and he is talking about who the real you are and the works that you perform show you really believe what you say you believe.

    5. This particular chapter is about respect of persons and this is why he states about loving your neighbor as yourself. If you have respect of persons, ye commit sin and are convinced of the law as transgressors, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Then he goes on quoting the same one who gave the law which was God; said, do not kill, do not commit adultery. If you don't commit adultery, yet if you kill thou art become a transgressor of the law. The same shall be judged the same who is under the law of liberty which is the new covenant. Sin is sin and wrong is wrong and without forgiveness we will be damned. Under the old covenant you had a specific judgement and the new covenant does not have this. You don't get stoned for transgressing these laws. You are still missing the point of what the mechanics of the covenant. I also said that there are similar things in the new covenant as the old but is not the old because it is in a new overall context. There is a difference in committing a sin and transgressing the law overall compared to being your nature. When you sin doesn't necessarily mean you are not saved anymore unless you commit a death penalty sin and don't ask for forgiveness. A truthful person is truthful and not untruthful. Why? Because he is truthful. But a truthful person could tell a lie. But he doesn't because of who he is. This is the whole of James.

    6. You are basing the sabbath on the creation sabbath and the sabbath for a jew was about the Red Sea deliverance as a ceremonial law. Its purpose was to commemorate the deliverance from Egypt (Deuteronomy 5:15) and be a type or shadow of the rest in Christ and in eternity (Hebrews 4:1-16; 10:1; Colossians 2:14-15). It was spoken to a specific people and period of time under a specific covenant that the gentiles were never under. As I said it will not damn anyone to hell if broken and doesn't violate a moral law which affects both God and man. It is impossible to keep the fourth commandment in all lands. For example, the sabbath to be kept from sunset to sunset would be impossible in the far north where 6 months day and 6 months night and the sabbath would be a year long every 7 years.

    7. If you travel over a certain amount of miles on the sabbath you violate it and I know 7th day adventists that do not abide by that. This is according to the law of moses and there is no room for fudging.
    Romans 2 Paul is talking about those who boast in the law and yet are hypocrites and circumcision is only profitable if you keep the law. So he is not saying we abide by the ethic of the law of Moses. The true jew is circumcised spiritually in the heart under the new covenant.

    8. You not basing it on the creation sabbath is more reason that it was only for the jews under the old covenant and mandatory or else they transgressed the law. Not being in Eden or Exodus 20 is not the point. The connection is that God rested on the seventh day and this was put in the context for a particular people in a particular time and a specific covenant that gentiles were never under and was abolished at calvary as being one specific day as in saturday.

    9. Ephesians 6:2; I have stated before is a commandment with promise and there can be same things in a new covenant as was in the old covenant and still not be the old covenant. Children who didn't honor their father and mother were stoned. This doesn't happen today. The sabbath day was the 4th commandment and not the fifth.

    10. Matthew 5 and Mark 7 is the context of the law and it was about entrance into the physical earthly kingdom reign on earth of which the jews will be at the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4. Jesus came to fulfill the law in his earthly ministry and not one jot or tittle would pass until all was fulfilled. Romans 10 shows he fulfilled it and it was satisfied and this is why Christ was the end of the law. Jesus taught the law of Moses of which we were never under according to Paul in Ephesians. The KoH and the KoG message was not a message for the church directly.

    11. The sermon on the mount was about repenting required of the backslidden jew who were out of covenant and were cursed and not blessed. Blessed are they that mourn means repent. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth was about the jews earthly calling and kingdom covenant as well as the land; Abrahamic and Mosaic. Blessed are the peacemaker and they weren't and they weren't being pure in heart and they were not hungering and thirsting etc. They had to do those things in order to be blessed and be in covenant with God etc. Refusal of the KoH and the KoG message is why they were trodden under the foot of men in 70 A.D. This could not be speaking of the church because the gates of hell will never prevail against the church and the church has never been trodden under the foot of men like Israel.

    12. The problem you are having is your perception of the wording of the scriptures concerning the sabbath and how the apostles used the law in their respective contexts. Understanding the overall context correctly will help understand the details.

    13. We have commandments in the new covenant and some stem from the old covenant in same, similar and different manners. As I said before the law is moral and spiritual and is close in that relation. There is a thin line between legalism and holiness living. At the same time law and grace, the old and new covenant are at opposite polars because one is of wrath and the other is freedom from legalistic letter keeping of the law.

    14. We still have to keep commandments and we can still incur a judgement but not in the same context of the old covenant. For example, the laws of sowing and reaping are in the old and new testaments but the law was mandatory to merit and not suffer a punishment. If you gave you were blessed and if not the devourer would destroy your fruits of your ground. Today if don't give you won't be bothered necessarily in agriculture for you may not be a farmer but you most likely won't be blessed in some way. At the same time if you are smart business wise you could still be blessed.

    15. Bible hermeneutics has to have correct context in the immediate and then overall with other scriptures to confirm and understanding the overall context on the subject.
    We are to be like the bereans to see if what is said is true or not with the word.
    Let me ask you a question since we are talking about context. When Paul said "I die daily" in 1 Corinthians 15 what did he mean in the overall perspective and specifically to the phrase itself and what scripture outside of this chapter that will confirm this context and the phrase specifically. Thanks. Jerry kelso
     
  19. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.

    Translation, the traffic policeman can override a red light. Why? Because he has discretionary powers. When we are in Christ, we have discretionary powers, able to make exceptions, because we know the Law was made to serve Man, not the other way 'round.
     
  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Even if Jesus could change the Sabbath, he never did, and if he had tried to, then he would have shown that he was a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), not the Lord of the Sabbath. We have no authority to countermand God and God specifically forbade adding or subtracting from His law (Deuteronomy 4:2), so we only have the authority to interpret it. We must obey God rather than man, so if any man says not to obey any of God's commands, then we must obey God instead.
     
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