Move for stricter hammer control! Hammer attacks on the rise!

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Escape issue. Hammers are inherently dangerous and have been used to assault and even kill American (and Australian) citizens. Being that they are so inherently dangerous I move that we should have stricter controls on these assault weapons such as the same restrictions we place on other inherently dangerous items.

Does this seem rational?
no, because just about ANYTHING can be turned into a weapon Go to prison People use SPOONS as weapons parts of fences even NEWSPAPERS you cannot control things simply because people can use them to kill others
 
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ThatRobGuy

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If you remove certain other weapons *cough* from society then it pretty much continues as normal.

Yep, when they did it in UK and AUS, everything was exactly the same
(except for the 40% increase armed robbery)
 
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John Lee Pettimore III

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A) Only one person died in the articles you posted, the others suffered bruising or broken bones. If I had to pick a weapon to be attacked with by a crazed lunatic then a hammer would probably be somewhere near the top of my list after catapault and cheese grater.

B) Hammers, unlike certain other weapons, have a well defined use other than maiming. Yes, screwdrivers, spades, drills, plug sockets, etc. can be dangerous, but if you remove them from society then society grinds to a halt. If you remove certain other weapons *cough* from society then it pretty much continues as normal.

Or a swiss army knife

No, really. They'll randomly search you, and arrest you for having a knife.

Yeah, the cops search random people and take tools

I don't think it's normal to have the cops stopping random people and taking commonly used tools.

Remember, the UK is a society that's trying to ban all weapons. :doh:
 
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acropolis

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no, because just about ANYTHING can be turned into a weapon Go to prison People use SPOONS as weapons parts of fences even NEWSPAPERS you cannot control things simply because people can use them to kill others

Yeah people still murder despite murdering being illegal so why bother having be illegal. If murder is outlawed then only murderers will be outlaws!

Seriously though it's so tiring when gun rights people play stupid as if they don't understand the difference in killing potential between something like a sharpened pencil and a gun, or a single action revolver and a belt-fed machine gun for that matter. This hyperbole just makes you look dense and doesn't convince anyone of anything.
 
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John Lee Pettimore III

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Yeah people still murder despite murdering being illegal so why bother having be illegal. If murder is outlawed then only murderers will be outlaws!

Seriously though it's so tiring when gun rights people play stupid as if they don't understand the difference in killing potential between something like a sharpened pencil and a gun, or a single action revolver and a belt-fed machine gun for that matter. This hyperbole just makes you look dense and doesn't convince anyone of anything.

I've always thought that the purpose of laws that are against acts that are mala in se is to serve to remove the offenders from society. If you're going to kill, rape, or steal, those things are morally wrong was to remove people from society.

Back in the days when anyone could order a Maxim machine gun through the mail that would fire as long as you watered it, and kept it fed with bullets, the worst mass killing at a school was when some crazy guy blew it up in protest of a tax.
 
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acropolis

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I've always thought that the purpose of laws that are against acts that are mala in se is to serve to remove the offenders from society. If you're going to kill, rape, or steal, those things are morally wrong was to remove people from society.

The point of the justice system is not only to separate offenders, but to actively discourage and prevent people from being harmed in the first place. It can't be taken for granted that keeping firearms cheap and unregistered keeps people safer. Nor can it be taken for granted that

Back in the days when anyone could order a Maxim machine gun through the mail that would fire as long as you watered it, and kept it fed with bullets, the worst mass killing at a school was when some crazy guy blew it up in protest of a tax.

Yes

I've heard that line trotted out by at least four others posters here, and dozens of times at others places. I get the impression whenever I hear it repeated that the speaker hasn't actually put any thought into what they are saying but instead has merely accepted the premise and is now repeating canned lines to defend it. It gets closer to a meaningful argument, but also fails to mean anything when 1) the Maxim weighted 60 pounds by itself making it basically useless for a single gunman and 2) the guns in question in this case and most other killing sprees are small automatic weapons useable by a single person.

These kind of guns can take a single crazy person and lead to a dozen or more deaths, so why exactly should society allow them to remain cheap and unregistered? These guns are inferior for all legitimate uses such as hunting and self-defense. It seems in the best interest of those who don't want to get gunned down at a movie theater to keep these dedicated crowd-clearing weapons expensive and registered, or better yet, simply unavailable by normal means. Let crazy people use hammers or at least guns which are much worse at killing large numbers of people in crowded areas.

There is more to it than just ALL GUNS or NO GUNS and it would be splendid, as a fellow gun owner, if gun rights people would stop spouting off canned phrases and instead address the legitimate issues with (some) guns and their availability.
 
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TheChristianSurvivalGuide

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Yeah people still murder despite murdering being illegal so why bother having be illegal. If murder is outlawed then only murderers will be outlaws!

Seriously though it's so tiring when gun rights people play stupid as if they don't understand the difference in killing potential between something like a sharpened pencil and a gun, or a single action revolver and a belt-fed machine gun for that matter. This hyperbole just makes you look dense and doesn't convince anyone of anything.

Please answer two questions so I can hopefully become less dense.

Why are some "inherently dangerous" items restricted?

When does an item cross a line in where we consider the item to be "inherently dangerous" and this worthy of restriction?
 
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TheChristianSurvivalGuide

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2) the guns in question in this case and most other killing sprees are small automatic weapons useable by a single person.

Which mass shootings have been committed with an automatic weapon?

I only know of one such instance and it wasn't truly a mass shooting, that's the North Hollywood bank robbery.

These kind of guns can take a single crazy person and lead to a dozen or more deaths, so why exactly should society allow them to remain cheap and unregistered?

1) Because they are terrific defensive tools and excellent sporting equipment given they are used in their intended manner.

2) Because making them illegal does not make them unavailable.


These guns are inferior for all legitimate uses such as hunting and self-defense.

Please articulate this statement.

It seems in the best interest of those who don't want to get gunned down at a movie theater to keep these dedicated crowd-clearing weapons expensive and registered, or better yet, simply unavailable by normal means. Let crazy people use hammers or at least guns which are much worse at killing large numbers of people in crowded areas.

Because nothing other than guns can damage large numbers of people -
News from The Associated Press

There is more to it than just ALL GUNS or NO GUNS and it would be splendid, as a fellow gun owner, if gun rights people would stop spouting off canned phrases and instead address the legitimate issues with (some) guns and their availability.

Spouting off facts would suit you more, is that a fair assumption?
 
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acropolis

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Please answer two questions so I can hopefully become less dense.

Why are some "inherently dangerous" items restricted?

When does an item cross a line in where we consider the item to be "inherently dangerous" and this worthy of restriction?

Are you really not sure why inherently dangerous items are restricted? Really? Cars are inherently dangerous; they are big and heavy and move fast. They are also really useful in committing crimes. So their use is restricted to those who have a licensed sober. They are required to be registered as well.

Guns are made specifically to end life, whether human or otherwise. They are clearly dangerous. This is not a controversial statement at all. Much of what gun rights activists use to justify their ownership of guns is specifically because they are so effective at killing (the whole people vs. government scenario).

The greater point I'm making here, that so many gun rights folks completely ignore, is that what dangerous items are worth regulating and to what degree is an open question; it's a matter of choice what kind of risk is worth the reward.

Which mass shootings have been committed with an automatic weapon?

I only know of one such instance and it wasn't truly a mass shooting, that's the North Hollywood bank robbery.

Thankfully automatic weapons are regulated to a decent degree which makes them expensive and relatively rare. I would argue that's a wise choice and something to continue enforcing.

The more common issue with mass shootings is compact semi-auto weapons with large magazines. It's not clear that the risks of having these relatively easy to acquire outweigh the benefits, since they aren't ideal for legitimate uses. Hunting is best done with long arms and self defense is easily secured with pistols and shotguns. Large capacity magazines offer little benefit here as well.

1) Because they are terrific defensive tools and excellent sporting equipment given they are used in their intended manner.

Self-defense situations in which a pistol or shotgun wouldn't cut it basically don't exist. Sporting purposes aren't worth a single life as far as I'm concerned. The kind of additional damage these weapons deal in shooting sprees isn't worth whatever marginal advantage they serve for the extremely rare case of, say, and entire platoon trying to invade your home.

2) Because making them illegal does not make them unavailable.

The idea is to make the less available. That's what bans and regulations do in effect. Simply because it will always be possible for some sufficiently wealthy people to secure an item doesn't mean it makes any sense to legalize it. It's also possible to secure wildly toxic chemicals like osmium, but there are very good reasons to keep certain items and materials difficult to acquire.

Because nothing other than guns can damage large numbers of people -
News from The Associated Press

That isn't a reason to legalize or deregulate other dangerous items. Bombs also kill a lot of people, and yet, guns still do as well. We're taking about guns, though, not bombs or knives.

Spouting off facts would suit you more, is that a fair assumption?

Facts are necessary to determine what risks are worth taking, yes. It can't be decided through ideology or assumption. Again, the greater point is that what risks are and aren't worth taking is a matter of choice. You need to make a coherent argument, supported by facts, reason etc. that it's better to have guns, or specific guns, readily and cheaply available.

(For the record I'm a gun owner and don't think a universal ban on guns is worth the cost, but there are actual arguments for this that gun rights activists so rarely bother making, instead preferring to make insipid hyperbolic arguments like yours.)
 
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