Motivation in Morality

dlamberth

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All of these examples are of people behaving according to the pinnacle of their morality. Do you think the Church would have funded those inquisitions and the imperialist excursions if they did not believe it was moral?
Yes, absolutely I do.

I like quote the Medieval women Christian Mystic Marguerite Porete. She wrote that there are two churches. The first she called the High Holy Church. That church "preaches" Love. The other church she called the Little Holy Church. That church "preaches" rules, laws and order. It's the High Holy Church that would have activated morality based on Love, Compassion and Empathy. The Little Holy Church was lacking any of that and had a troubling lack of morals as a result. That's because what they were doing was not seen through a Moral lens. Greed? Yes, Ego, Yes. Fear? Yes. Power? Yes. Ignorance? Yes.

Oh, by the way, Marguerite Porete was burned at the stake by the Little Holy Church.
 
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Taisho

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Shame there isn't an icon for 'pessimistic'. I'd have popped one on to your post. Which is not to say that you don't make good points. It's just that it sounds like you're a glass-half-empty kind of guy.

I agree that underneath this thin veneer of civilisation bubbles a lot of desires that we'd rather were kept out of the bright sunlight. But...at least we know we should try to keep them under lock and key. We know they are wrong. Which is the greater part of the battle I think.

Let's face it, unless one is literally psychopathic then anyone who steals, rapes or murders actually knows that it's wrong. They just do it anyway for a variety of reasons. But thinking that there's no problem with it isn't one of those reasons.

YOU MAY know it's wrong, but I am not convinced as many people as you think realize it is wrong. Or, they have an incredible mechanism of ignorance to keep them "active" in the trajectory of error while believing it is merit.

I am a colloquial and philosophical cynic, so yes I 100% see the error of man first because in my opinion the honesty thereof is the only thing that will stop us from continuing to repeat the same BS cycles of debauchery and evil while believing it is righteous.

If the glass is half empty, it is half empty; as a person of math, I would say the volume of water in the glass, though half full and empty at the same time (related to the human condition as a metaphor) is strictly decreasing. So yea I don't proudly wear the badge of jadedness and cynicism, but what more do I have to work with on this plane of existence? It seems humans are excited to show our degrees of spiritual dereliction while at the same time calling it "progress and merit".

We kill for fun and lie for teh lulz... tell me I am embellishing... -.-
 
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Taisho

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Yes, absolutely I do.

I like quote the Medieval women Christian Mystic Marguerite Porete. She wrote that there are two churches. The first she called the High Holy Church. That church "preaches" Love. The other church she called the Little Holy Church. That church "preaches" rules, laws and order. It's the High Holy Church that would have activated morality based on Love, Compassion and Empathy. The Little Holy Church was lacking any of that and had a troubling lack of morals as a result. That's because what they were doing was not seen through a Moral lens. Greed? Yes, Ego, Yes. Fear? Yes. Power? Yes. Ignorance? Yes.

Oh, by the way, Marguerite Porete was burned at the stake by the Little Holy Church.

This behavior is par for the course being a human on this plane of existence - especially a human in elevated position required to exhibit extra-human restraint/discipline/temperance/etc.

Humans talk a big game of godliness, but we rarely meet the real mark - which is why we romanticize our evil so that it isn't so "evil".

How can you know burning a human at the stake isn't fun or productive unless u do it a couple of times? [/sarcasm]
 
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Bradskii

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YOU MAY know it's wrong, but I am not convinced as many people as you think realize it is wrong. Or, they have an incredible mechanism of ignorance to keep them "active" in the trajectory of error while believing it is merit.

I am a colloquial and philosophical cynic, so yes I 100% see the error of man first because in my opinion the honesty thereof is the only thing that will stop us from continuing to repeat the same BS cycles of debauchery and evil while believing it is righteous.

If the glass is half empty, it is half empty; as a person of math, I would say the volume of water in the glass, though half full and empty at the same time (related to the human condition as a metaphor) is strictly decreasing. So yea I don't proudly wear the badge of jadedness and cynicism, but what more do I have to work with on this plane of existence? It seems humans are excited to show our degrees of spiritual dereliction while at the same time calling it "progress and merit".

We kill for fun and lie for teh lulz... tell me I am embellishing... -.-

I think we're not far away from each other in morosely contemplating that which we are all capable of. And I include myself in that. I'm not going to kid myself that in certain conditions I wouldn't be part of the mob. There is, in fact, a certain thrill in the freedom we can experience in anonymous acts where we can 'share the blame' as it were. There's a Mister Hyde in all of us.

But having said that, that half empty glass was a lot emptier in times past. There are some faults in Pinker's book 'Better Angels of Our Nature' in which he argues that we are now living in tbe safetest time in human history - not very convincing if you've lost a son Afghanistan or you've recently been mugged. But I tend to agree with him.

We are undoubtedly a more moral society then we were a few hundred years ago. A hundred years ago. Even a few dozen years ago. It seems that we're heading in a more moral direction. Which some Christians have suggested to me contradicts my belief that there is no objective morality. They ask, quite reasonably, if there is no objective morality then where are we headed?

I'm still working on that...
 
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Carol Walker

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If I may...

I would like to propose that there's been a misunderstanding from the beginning of this thread: the use of the word "moral" and it's generally assumed meaning. The way I understand it, everyone is a moral individual and every action, reason, motive and concept is moral, but not because moral mean "good".
Morality is something more complicated than that. Let me attempt something: Everyone has reasons for what they do, yes? No matter the action, a person has a motive for it. "I went to work in the soup kitchen because I wished to help the needy."
"I worked in the kitchen because I want my boss to be impressed with how I'm feeding these people."
"I worked in the kitchen because I was hoping to gain some extra money this month(or some extra reputation with my neighbors/friends)." In any of these cases or more, there are motives, reasons, agendas behind them. We all serve an agenda.
Now, some of you were talking about God and how He views Himself as most important. More important then the children He created for His own glory, as is true. Some see that action, that agenda as wrong. Okay, I can see how you got there. But I'll give an example from the other perspective.
Suppose you created, somehow, clay, stone, or brick people(the material doesn't matter) and they could speak, think, act on their own, etc. Are you more important than these people you made? I would argue that assuredly you are, for the explicit reason that you created these beings, you hold their lives in your hands, and you are a higher for of life than them. Automatically you are, since you have been there since before their lives began, you have the power to unmake them at any moment and they are your creations. You own them. But you love these people. You care about them, so you give them free will. It is your right to be acknowledged as a superior being but you give them the choice whether to do it or not. However, you recognize and forever keep in mind that you are, in truth, the most important being of them all, and you always act with that fact in mind. So all your actions are guided by this Truth: You are the one in charge, you are the creator of these people and you deserve recognition and acknowledgement of this.
Now, understanding that I was making this about normal people, it should be understandable that when it comes to God, who actually did all of this(what I just gave an example of) and more, of course He performs His actions with His own glory in mind. There is no higher being than Himself and therefore no one better to give the glory to.
As for morality, we all live in a constant relationship with God, either for Him(Christians such as myself) or against Him(such as Taisho, Treeplanter, and others). Therefore every action we take is either for or against God, there is nothing in between. Every action is moral because that's what morality is: actions concerning our God. No matter what you choose to do, you are acting morally. Now, the only understanding there is to accomplish is whether the action is good morally or evil morally. The answer is: motive and context. If you are preforming an action for the glory of God it is good, and both motive and context are in harmony with God, it is good. Anything besides that is evil.

Also, a lot of what everybody said had grains of truth in it. We are born inherently evil, because Adam and Eve(not created inherently evil, bit created with free will) chose evil,. Hose to rebel against God. They passed this corruption on to the rest of humanity. So yeah, there is a lot of what we do that is horrible, selfish, and we will never be free of that until we die, depending on if we're Christian or not. Christians, while still human and selfish at the core, have given ourselves to Christ the Lord Glorious and so we strive to do all we can for His Divine Glory. This does not mean that everything we do is righteous, but it does mean that we have acknowledged, now and forever, God's right to be worshipped because He is God. The God who created us and who deserves recognition for His actual love for us which provoked His giving us free will, the happy extras we get everyday, and the possibility of being saved from Hell by giving us there Free Sacrifice for our sins, Christ the Son of God. Those who take the sacrifice and love its giver are saved and become Princes and Princesses in the House of God forever. Those who reject God as our maker and Lord are cast into Hell, there to be punished for all eternity.
I have a lot more to say, but I'll stop here to give you guys a chance to say something in response. Thank you in advance for reading this.
 
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Taisho

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I think we're not far away from each other in morosely contemplating that which we are all capable of. And I include myself in that. I'm not going to kid myself that in certain conditions I wouldn't be part of the mob. There is, in fact, a certain thrill in the freedom we can experience in anonymous acts where we can 'share the blame' as it were. There's a Mister Hyde in all of us.

But having said that, that half empty glass was a lot emptier in times past. There are some faults in Pinker's book 'Better Angels of Our Nature' in which he argues that we are now living in tbe safetest time in human history - not very convincing if you've lost a son Afghanistan or you've recently been mugged. But I tend to agree with him.

We are undoubtedly a more moral society then we were a few hundred years ago. A hundred years ago. Even a few dozen years ago. It seems that we're heading in a more moral direction. Which some Christians have suggested to me contradicts my belief that there is no objective morality. They ask, quite reasonably, if there is no objective morality then where are we headed?

I'm still working on that...

I get you, but the progress of our alleged morality is an illusion because at the same time the paradigm shifts, the standard of morality also shifts. Slavery was perfectly moral and biblically supported only 150+ years ago; today it is perfectly moral to telegraph oppression into legislation - but at least I don't own slaves amiright?

I claim that if we are honest with ourselves, we would realize our morality is worth less than rat dropping on a hot summer day. All we are doing (IMO) is apologizing for our ignorance and evil, hoping no one notices, and rewriting the fabric of society so that we cover our tracks.

I do admit that I may be extremely pessimistic about humanity, but given history and how humans generally treat each other (especially when you make them upset) it is safer for me to be cynical of humanity than it is to trust humans and be burned or exploited to death.
 
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Carol Walker

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I get you, but the progress of our alleged morality is an illusion because at the same time the paradigm shifts, the standard of morality also shifts. Slavery was perfectly moral and biblically supported only 150+ years ago; today it is perfectly moral to telegraph oppression into legislation - but at least I don't own slaves amiright?

I claim that if we are honest with ourselves, we would realize our morality is worth less than rat dropping on a hot summer day. All we are doing (IMO) is apologizing for our ignorance and evil, hoping no one notices, and rewriting the fabric of society so that we cover our tracks.

I do admit that I may be extremely pessimistic about humanity, but given history and how humans generally treat each other (especially when you make them upset) it is safer for me to be cynical of humanity than it is to trust humans and be burned or exploited to death.

I agree on this score: humans are a quite abysmal species. Every one of us is. It's just a matter of who we are in relation to God and how we act in relation to that.

By the way, where in the Bible is slavery supported? I'm sincerely interested.
 
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Taisho

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If I may...

I would like to propose that there's been a misunderstanding from the beginning of this thread: the use of the word "moral" and it's generally assumed meaning. The way I understand it, everyone is a moral individual and every action, reason, motive and concept is moral, but not because moral mean "good".
Morality is something more complicated than that. Let me attempt something: Everyone has reasons for what they do, yes? No matter the action, a person has a motive for it. "I went to work in the soup kitchen because I wished to help the needy."
"I worked in the kitchen because I want my boss to be impressed with how I'm feeding these people."
"I worked in the kitchen because I was hoping to gain some extra money this month(or some extra reputation with my neighbors/friends)." In any of these cases or more, there are motives, reasons, agendas behind them. We all serve an agenda.
Now, some of you were talking about God and how He views Himself as most important. More important then the children He created for His own glory, as is true. Some see that action, that agenda as wrong. Okay, I can see how you got there. But I'll give an example from the other perspective.
Suppose you created, somehow, clay, stone, or brick people(the material doesn't matter) and they could speak, think, act on their own, etc. Are you more important than these people you made? I would argue that assuredly you are, for the explicit reason that you created these beings, you hold their lives in your hands, and you are a higher for of life than them. Automatically you are, since you have been there since before their lives began, you have the power to unmake them at any moment and they are your creations. You own them. But you love these people. You care about them, so you give them free will. It is your right to be acknowledged as a superior being but you give them the choice whether to do it or not. However, you recognize and forever keep in mind that you are, in truth, the most important being of them all, and you always act with that fact in mind. So all your actions are guided by this Truth: You are the one in charge, you are the creator of these people and you deserve recognition and acknowledgement of this.
Now, understanding that I was making this about normal people, it should be understandable that when it comes to God, who actually did all of this(what I just gave an example of) and more, of course He performs His actions with His own glory in mind. There is no higher being than Himself and therefore no one better to give the glory to.
As for morality, we all live in a constant relationship with God, either for Him(Christians such as myself) or against Him(such as Taisho, Treeplanter, and others). Therefore every action we take is either for or against God, there is nothing in between. Every action is moral because that's what morality is: actions concerning our God. No matter what you choose to do, you are acting morally. Now, the only understanding there is to accomplish is whether the action is good morally or evil morally. The answer is: motive and context. If you are preforming an action for the glory of God it is good, and both motive and context are in harmony with God, it is good. Anything besides that is evil.

Also, a lot of what everybody said had grains of truth in it. We are born inherently evil, because Adam and Eve(not created inherently evil, bit created with free will) chose evil,. Hose to rebel against God. They passed this corruption on to the rest of humanity. So yeah, there is a lot of what we do that is horrible, selfish, and we will never be free of that until we die, depending on if we're Christian or not. Christians, while still human and selfish at the core, have given ourselves to Christ the Lord Glorious and so we strive to do all we can for His Divine Glory. This does not mean that everything we do is righteous, but it does mean that we have acknowledged, now and forever, God's right to be worshipped because He is God. The God who created us and who deserves recognition for His actual love for us which provoked His giving us free will, the happy extras we get everyday, and the possibility of being saved from Hell by giving us there Free Sacrifice for our sins, Christ the Son of God. Those who take the sacrifice and love its giver are saved and become Princes and Princesses in the House of God forever. Those who reject God as our maker and Lord are cast into Hell, there to be punished for all eternity.
I have a lot more to say, but I'll stop here to give you guys a chance to say something in response. Thank you in advance for reading this.

U guys...

Some of you who are "decent" forget the rest of "us" are NOT decent - and therefore your "decent" application of morality is meaningless to those of "us" who don't have the pressure to be "decent".

I suppose I am giving you (and those like you) a back-handed compliment in calling you "decent" (considering my stance on humanity), but [people like] you must understand that the VAST MAJORITY of humans are not decent - and that people like you may have a deeper motivation to be "decent" (while others have no such motivation outside of self").

For example, not nearly everyone has a relationship with the Most High.
 
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Ken-1122

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Then you believe, likewise, that an immoral action makes for an immoral person - regardless of intent?
Not just one action, I would say to consistently do the wrong thing, makes you an immoral person.
If you constantly try to do something good or neutral but it keeps turning out bad, there is leeway, and you are not a bad person because there was no evil intent. If you are constantly attempting to do something bad or neutral but it keeps turning out good, though your actions are good, that does not make you a good person.
 
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Carol Walker

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U guys...

Some of you who are "decent" forget the rest of "us" are NOT decent - and therefore your "decent" application of morality is meaningless to those of "us" who don't have the pressure to be "decent".

I suppose I am giving you (and those like you) a back-handed compliment in calling you "decent" (considering my stance on humanity), but [people like] you must understand that the VAST MAJORITY of humans are not decent - and that people like you may have a deeper motivation to be "decent" (while others have no such motivation outside of self").

For example, not nearly everyone has a relationship with the Most High.

I apologize, I don't think I understand. I don't mean to suppose that people are decent. No one is decent on my book. No one. We are murderers, all of us. We cheat, steal, kill, rape, sell and buy people, we defy the most sacred of beings every day. I don't deny that humans are despicable. I am despicable. Deeply. I have no excuse for all the horrible things I've done,both to the people around me and to my God.

That being said, everyone has a relationship with God, but only in the sense that everyone is His creation. Everyone lives either in opposition to Him or in obedience to Him. That's what happens when you have God in existence.

Were you talking about something else?
 
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Bradskii

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I get you, but the progress of our alleged morality is an illusion because at the same time the paradigm shifts, the standard of morality also shifts.

Totally agree with the fact that our standards of morality shift. There were aspects of life that any given ancestor of mine would find entirely natural that I would think unacceptable. Hell, there were apects of my life when I was younger that I thought were ok that I think are wrong now. But am I now a totally morally aware person? Obviously not. So what aspect of life is there that I find perfectly acceptable right now that will be considered immoral in, say, 500 years time?

It would be as difficult for me to propose something now as it would have been for someone in 1521 to define morality for the 21st century.
 
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Taisho

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I apologize, I don't think I understand. I don't mean to suppose that people are decent. No one is decent on my book. No one. We are murderers, all of us. We cheat, steal, kill, rape, sell and buy people, we defy the most sacred of beings every day. I don't deny that humans are despicable. I am despicable. Deeply. I have no excuse for all the horrible things I've done,both to the people around me and to my God.

That being said, everyone has a relationship with God, but only in the sense that everyone is His creation. Everyone lives either in opposition to Him or in obedience to Him. That's what happens when you have God in existence.

Were you talking about something else?

No I meant you.

A lot of you are sweet... lol..

It's nice that some of you try to appeal to the merits of humanity (when most of humanity doesn't even care), but [people like] you should know you are an anomaly: most people - if it was legal - would participate in the PURGE. The only thing that keeps people from murdering, raping and pillaging is the law of society (what we have erroneously deemed as "morality").

And, I'm not patronizing you, I really do mean your sentiments are sweet - even in your delivery of how you feel about humanity (which, of course, I agree with). I am just saying people like you don't give your self enough credit in the context of the rest of the population.

Humans are evil, yes.

And you definitely understand how we do evil for teh lulz. To be honest, this message cleared everything up for me with respect to what you are saying. I just don't like people who are "decent" using their "decent" energy to defend the lot of humanity even in the smallest bit. I thought you were doing that but I missed your first message about humanity :D
 
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Taisho

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Totally agree with the fact that our standards of morality shift. There were aspects of life that any given ancestor of mine would find entirely natural that I would think unacceptable. Hell, there were apects of my life when I was younger that I thought were ok that I think are wrong now. But am I now a totally morally aware person? Obviously not. So what aspect of life is there that I find perfectly acceptable right now that will be considered immoral in, say, 500 years time?

It would be as difficult for me to propose something now as it would have been for someone in 1521 to define morality for the 21st century.

A lot of you are sweet... lol..

I mean people like you too in Post #112.
 
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Bradskii

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Suppose you created, somehow, clay, stone, or brick people(the material doesn't matter) and they could speak, think, act on their own, etc. Are you more important than these people you made?

I made two people (my wife actually gave me a hand). They are the most important people in my life. And their lives are a lot more important than mine.

Maybe you need a better example.
 
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Taisho

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I made two people (my wife actually gave me a hand). They are the most important people in my life. And their lives are a lot more important than mine.

Maybe you need a better example.

This is exactly what I mean - "decent" people missing the fact that the rest of humanity is NOT like them.

YOU may care about your children, and consider their lives of some (im)measurable importance. But there are many parents that sell their children into slavery, poison them to get attention, exploit their credit and name, etc. The fact that you actually gave your wife a bit of credit for your (pro)creation separates you even more lol...
 
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Bradskii

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This is exactly what I mean - "decent" people missing the fact that the rest of humanity is NOT like them.

YOU may care about your children, and consider their lives of some (im)measurable importance. But there are many parents that sell their children into slavery, poison them to get attention, exploit their credit and name, etc. The fact that you actually gave your wife a bit of credit for your (pro)creation separates you even more lol...

Well, this is a shot in the dark, but I think most parents love their children.
 
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Carol Walker

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I made two people (my wife actually gave me a hand). They are the most important people in my life. And their lives are a lot more important than mine.

Maybe you need a better example.

Okay, I see where you're coming from, but I argue that there's a pretty major difference. You are not your children's God. Your role is massively different in their lives. To add to that, humans are fallible. God, by definition, cannot be.
I believe my example stands.
 
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Carol Walker

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Well, this is a shot in the dark, but I think most parents love their children.

We are depraved, not incapable of loving. Even sociopaths and psychopaths have people they care about in some fashion.
 
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Okay, I see where you're coming from, but I argue that there's a pretty major difference. You are not your children's God. Your role is massively different in their lives. To add to that, humans are fallible. God, by definition, cannot be.
I believe my example stands.

Your argument is becoming circular. 'God is more important than His creations because...He is God'.

I think that's all you need to say. Bringing up some sort of comparison with us is pretty much a waste of time if I give you an example and your response is 'Well, you're not God'. You are dismantling your own proposal.
 
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