Motivation in Morality

Treeplanter

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God is just, so he does justice. Justice is what it is because God is just. It is logically self-contradictory to say that he could choose to do otherwise.
God is NOT just - at least not according to the human standard that most every one of us conforms to {yourself included, I'm sure}

Why do you think that God is good and just even when His actions run contrary to what you and I and every other non socio/psychopathic person consider to be good and just?

Going back to my example - no human being {outside of socio/psychopaths} believes that a finite crime is deserving of an infinite punishment

*Never mind that dying apart from Christ hardly qualifies as a crime to begin with!
 
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Treeplanter

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Greetings, Treeplanter.
Hi HW, sorry it has taken me so long to respond...

I was wondering where we humans got the basis for the ideas of right and wrong. Where do we draw from, what makes the concepts universal?
In short:
That which benefits us is 'right'
That which is detrimental to us is 'wrong'

How did you come to this belief?
I would think this is obvious - doesn't everyone desire that which is beneficial while eschewing that which is detrimental?
 
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Clare73

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God is NOT just - at least not according to the human standard that most every one of us conforms to {yourself included, I'm sure}

Why do you think that God is good and just even when His actions run contrary to what you and I and every other non socio/psychopathic person consider to be good and just?

Going back to my example - no human being {outside of socio/psychopaths} believes that a finite crime is deserving of an infinite punishment

*Never mind that dying apart from Christ hardly qualifies as a crime to begin with!
Are rattlesnakes (naturally poisonous enemies of man) in agreement with our system of justice,
particularly on Rattlesnake Round-Up Day?
 
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Treeplanter

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right and wrong are judgments humans make
Agreed, we determine right from wrong {i.e. morality}

I think for most it is based on empathy, culture.
And all morality, by definition, is subjective because all morality is filtered through personal thoughts and feelings

As far as universal, a quick look into the real world and you will see human morality is not universal.
I have to disagree here - I believe that most every human being is in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial {i.e. moral} and detrimental {i.e. detrimental}
 
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Treeplanter

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Do rattlesnakes get to judge our system of justice, particularly on Rattlesnake Round Up Day?
We all get to judge, Clare!
Every day
In every way

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with judging

You, yourself, judge - all the time!

The question you ought to be asking yourself is why you give God a free pass to do that which would earn anyone else your condemnation?
 
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Clare73

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We all get to judge, Clare!
Every day
In every way
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with judging
You, yourself, judge - all the time!

The question you ought to be asking yourself is why you give God a free pass to do that which would earn anyone else your condemnation?
Are rattlesnakes (naturally poisonous enemies of man) in agreement with our system of justice,
particularly on Rattlesnake Round-Up Day?

Does it matter in any way at all whether they give us a "free pass" or not?

Is all their posturing anything more than self-importance, hot air and beating their gums?
 
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Treeplanter

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Are rattlesnakes (naturally poisonous enemies of man) in agreement with our system of justice,
particularly on Rattlesnake Round-Up Day?

Does it matter in any way at all whether they give us a "free pass" or not?
The problem with Christianity is that, in the estimation of the faith, every man is, himself, a 'rattlesnake'
 
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Clare73

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The problem with Christianity is that, in the estimation of the faith,
every man is, himself, a 'rattlesnake'
Yeah, and the rattlesnakes have the same complaint.

They don't like being told their rattlesnakes either.
 
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Ken-1122

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I have to disagree here - I believe that most every human being is in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial {i.e. moral} and detrimental {i.e. detrimental}
First of all, morality/immorality is not the same as beneficial/detrimental, it’s defined as right/wrong; big difference.
But even if it were; a quick look at history, things have changed with issues like racism, slavery, human sacrifice, etc. even today's issues like transgender issues, race relations, abortion, Global warming, there are plenty of hot button issues even of today that every human being are NOT in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial.
 
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Treeplanter

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First of all, morality/immorality is not the same as beneficial/detrimental, it’s defined as right/wrong; big difference.
Yes - morality is the differentiation of right from wrong, but the primary {if not only} factor that we utilize in determining that which is 'right' and that which is 'wrong' is one of beneficence vs. detrimentality as regarding humanity

there are plenty of hot button issues even of today that every human being are NOT in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial.
Certainly - this goes without saying...

However, it remains true that most every human being on earth {minus the socio/psychopaths} are in full agreement that to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others is immoral

That we do not {and cannot} always agree upon what constitutes "conscious" and "purposeful" and "needless" and "harm" does not change a thing!
 
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Treeplanter

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Yeah, and the rattlesnakes have the same complaint.

They don't like being told their rattlesnakes either.
If we ARE 'rattlesnakes' then it is by the Hand of God, Himself

How is it that He remains good and just given that He bears full responsibility for the creation of rattlesnakes?
 
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Clare73

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If we ARE 'rattlesnakes' then it is by the Hand of God, Himself

How is it that He remains good and just given that He bears full responsibility for the creation of rattlesnakes?
Where is the injustice in creating rattlesnakes?

Rattlesnakes like being rattlesnakes.
 
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Treeplanter

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Where is the injustice in creating rattlesnakes?

Rattlesnakes like being rattlesnakes.
Creating rattlesnakes, in and of itself, is not unjust

Creating rattlesnakes knowing full well that you will then eternally burn and torture them for the 'crime' of being what you made them to be is what is unjust!
 
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Treeplanter

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Yes, I agree that if you do something like feed the poor, but out of obligation, resent having to be there, while the act is good, I don't believe that is a moral or act of kindness.

However, I will also say this: People often have asked me how one loves their neighbor as we ought to. I think there are two factors: One is to pray for that love, for the love of God to just flow through you and make you more loving. The HS has often shown me that it is the highest will of the Father for us to love one another, and to pray for love from the Father, and he gives it generously. I'm not sure many Christians pray for love. A new job, a relationship, for their team to win as if God is a genie granting wishes, rather than ask the Father what he asks of you. There was a time when my psycho neighborhood watch really stepped over the line invading the privacy of me and my roommate by spying on us in our house jn the bedroom, and bathroom. I told God I know I was to forgive them, but the only way I could do that was to be given thst forgiveness. And was given.

The other part is to put your love in action make it a habit, like the phrase Practice Random Acts of Kindness. There was a woman in Toronto who would go buy apples, water, meat cheese and bread, making sack lunches, then go to parks, bridges, and ask homeless people if they needed some food. It was a small act of kindness, but if everyone made a drop, we would have an ocean. And even if you start off wondering if any of it makes a difference, seems like a lot of work, each time you do these small acts of kindness, it changes you. You don't see it right away, because it's a babystep towards becoming kinder. But it soon becomes your nature.

The combination of asking for love, then acting in faith, changes you into a more loving person, and you will see the fruit of the spirit in yourself.

I compare it to going to the gum. You keep meaning to. Finally, you do. You decide to commit one hour/day, running, lifting, biking, something. When you don't want to go, you go anyway.

6 months later, you start to feel the need to exercise, your food choices may change, you look better, you feel better.

If I bring you to the gym, and you keep telling me that you don't want to be there, you don't like exercising, you are only doing this for me, chances are, you won't go again. Sure, if I have a lot of patience, and could get you to go for a month, at which time you could stop, you would most likely start to like it. But if we all do it once as part of a company outing obligation once, chances are it won't have much impact.

Re: morality - a friend of mine told me that her church group went to a secondhand clothing store to volunteer to sort clothes for the homeless. Their leader found a very nice leather coat that was donated, and decided to take it as "payment" for working. That, I believe, was highly unethical. Basically, not only did she steal, and set a bad example for the people in the church group, but she stole from homeless people. That's cold.
The question, though, is this:

Does one need the Holy Spirit / Jesus Christ / God to go to the gym?
 
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Treeplanter

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The latter. However, this happened to me.
A woman believing homosexuality to be a sin, said to me, "I love you in Christ, but I hare your sin."

I replied, "Thank you, sister. And I love you as well. And, hate your sin, too.

She said, My sin???? What sin have I committed?

I said I didn't know nor is it my business. Was she angry that I hated her sin?
Was she angry that I said she sinned, because we all do.

She then made it clear that what I did (which I don't believe is sin, but she did), I do intentionally, but she doesn't intentionally sin. I was like, "you unintentionally find a sweater you didn't pay for in your purse? You say, whoa, whoa you aren't my husband.. Every misdeed where me act in selfishness towards our neighbor is wholeheartedly done intentionally. We make a conscious choice to know better, and make a bad decision, so we keep the extra cash the waitress gave us, even justify that you didn't take the money..: You choose. So when someone claims they don't intentionally sin, i doubt they acknowledge that they sin at all, or aware of when they do, thus, thinking there is no need to ask forgiveness to the other or God.

That is one of the problems with Christianity vs Buddhism. Christianity focuses so much on the deed, so, you make wish someone were dead, tell them so, snd think yourself good because you didn't act, while the bible says you have already committed murder. Buddhism goes for the root of the problem, the impure thought of hating the other, acknowledging the thought, and purifying it - getting rid of it.

I practiced the observance and respect of all sentient life, valuing all living things. I saw a small inch worm near the bus stop of the university. I carried it to safety. After practicing this for a number of weeks, I realized that then caring for another person was just a no brainer, so much more important to me than an inch worm.

Similarly, I will return money if given too much change. Loving my neighbor as myself makes me return it, feeling empathy. The karma of knowing I should return it and don't will manifest 3x over, as will the good karma, similar to Christ saying to cast your bread on the water.

The biggest difference in Buddhism, though, is that it doesn't give you any space to try and justify your misdeed, because at it's root, in this example, you kept the money for selfish gain, knew it wasn't yours, and took advantage of yhe clerk's mistake for your own benefit.
Are you homosexual?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Why do you think that God is good and just even when His actions run contrary to what you and I and every other non socio/psychopathic person consider to be good and just?

Well, for starters, his actions (and their reasons) include a whole lot more than just this life. This life is not for this life.

Going back to my example - no human being {outside of socio/psychopaths} believes that a finite crime is deserving of an infinite punishment

The crime is not finite, being against infinite God.

*Never mind that dying apart from Christ hardly qualifies as a crime to begin with!

That's not the crime —you are right there. Sin is the crime.
 
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Treeplanter

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Well, for starters, his actions (and their reasons) include a whole lot more than just this life. This life is not for this life.
Are you suggesting that God is required to do unjust things to us, in this life, so that we can have a better one in the future?

That's asinine

God is not EVER required to cause harm in order to achieve a greater good!

The crime is not finite, being against infinite God.
Ridiculous

To claim that a so-called 'crime' against God is infinite because God, Himself, is infinite is no different than claiming that one who transgresses against God must be omnipotent because God, Himself, is omnipotent

*And let's not forget that dying without having placed one's faith in Jesus Christ is NOT even an actual crime to begin with!

Sin is the crime.
Is it?

There is only ONE sin that God cannot / will not forgive and that is the 'sin' of not recognizing and glorifying Him
 
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Ken-1122

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Yes - morality is the differentiation of right from wrong, but the primary {if not only} factor that we utilize in determining that which is 'right' and that which is 'wrong' is one of beneficence vs. detrimentality as regarding humanity
What about those who believe right vs wrong is what is best for their afterlife according to their religion? Or their God of choice? Or the Environment? Or Me? Or the countless other things some people value more than the entirety of mankind?
However, it remains true that most every human being on earth {minus the socio/psychopaths} are in full agreement that to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others is immoral

That we do not {and cannot} always agree upon what constitutes "conscious" and "purposeful" and "needless" and "harm" does not change a thing!
No it doesn’t change anything, but I think it contradicts your very point! Post# 564 You said:

I believe that most every human being is in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial {i.e. moral} and detrimental {i.e. detrimental}

Those were your exact words. Soooo if you can’t agree as to what constitutes needless harm, how on Earth are we supposed to be in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial/moral or detrimental/immoral
 
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Treeplanter

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What about those who believe right vs wrong is what is best for their afterlife according to their religion? Or their God of choice? Or the Environment? Or Me? Or the countless other things some people value more than the entirety of mankind?

No it doesn’t change anything, but I think it contradicts your very point! Post# 564 You said:

I believe that most every human being is in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial {i.e. moral} and detrimental {i.e. detrimental}

Those were your exact words. Soooo if you can’t agree as to what constitutes needless harm, how on Earth are we supposed to be in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial/moral or detrimental/immoral
And I stand by my exact words!

Like I said, most every human being is in full agreement as to what is ultimately beneficial / moral
{i.e. refraining from the conscious and purposeful infliction of needless harm upon others}
and what is ultimately detrimental / immoral
{i.e. consciously and purposefully inflicting needless harm upon others}
 
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