Most pastors lack extensive secular work experience, survey finds

[Paidiske]

Doesn't that reflect more on power structures in particular religions, than the idea that clergy must be university educated per se?

I think that what I'm trying to say, is that if a particular position or role comes with power (and we know that ordained roles do), people should be well equipped to use that power responsibly.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think that what I'm trying to say, is that if a particular position or role comes with power (and we know that ordained roles do), people should be well equipped to use that power responsibly.

You don't see the irony in that part of what may give pastors their power may be credentialism? At least in the Protestant denominations that aren't highly sacramental, the pastor is perceived as primarily a "bible expert", especially due to the legacy of philosophical modernism. In fact, at one time, the perceived prestige of the clergy as doctors was such that not giving them proper deference brought with them legal penalities.

Lest this sound of the wall, about a decade ago a pastor in my own denomination wrote a snarky book about the "spiritual but not religious" crowd (I believe it was Lilian Daniel Why Spiritual But Not Religious is Not Enough), challenging them for not seeing perceived value in institutional religion, and behind it all seemed to be the perception that because she went to Yale Divinity School, she deserves to be treated as an authority in spiritual matters moreso than people that reject organized religion, and who may speak in what she perceives as spiritual cliches.

Now, that's mild in comparison to some forms of abuse, but I still see it abusive and I am disturbed fewer pastors didn't call her behavior out. Only a few pastors did.

 

[Paidiske]

You don't see the irony in that part of what may give pastors their power may be credentialism?

But I'm not arguing for credentialism. Just the same as you wouldn't let someone unlicensed drive a forklift, or someone unqualified conduct heart surgery, I absolutely think it is negligent to put people in positions of spiritual authority without doing what we can to make sure they're safe to be there.

Lest this sound of the wall, about a decade ago a pastor in my own denomination wrote a snarky book about the "spiritual but not religious" crowd (I believe it was Lilian Daniel Why Spiritual But Not Religious is Not Enough), challenging them for not seeing perceived value in institutional religion, and behind it all seemed to be the perception that because she went to Yale Divinity School, she deserves to be treated as an authority in spiritual matters moreso than people that reject organized religion, and who may speak in what she perceives as spiritual cliches.

Now, that's mild in comparison to some forms of abuse, but I still see it abusive and I am shocked fewer pastors didn't call her behavior out. Only a few pastors did.

I've never heard of her, or the book. Maybe they didn't call her out because it didn't cross their radars, either.

What have crossed my radar, though, are frankly ignorant folks in positions of church leadership spouting harmful and abusive nonsense. And I'm far more concerned about the damage they're doing, than the idea that it might be a problem if we set a minimum standard in preparation.

And I note that this thread isn't actually about academic credentials at all, but about previous experiences in workplaces other than the church, which is a whole other question.

 

[dzheremi]

In my Church's tradition, the clergy are elevated from among the people, rather than whatever the alternative is. There is seminary education, of course (we have maybe half a dozen seminaries around the world, with the most well-established in Egypt, of course), but I don't think it's necessary to have a M.Div. from a fancy school or anything. More important to the formation of a priest in a literal sense is the 40 days they all must spend in a monastery learning the ins and outs of the rites they will be performing, and undergoing spiritual strengthening in a monastic setting. I was only in a Coptic Orthodox monastery for about two weeks (and none of that was with the intention of becoming a priest), and I knew before the end of that time that I was not cut out to be anything beyond a layperson, so I'm assuming that by the time the 40 days are up, the relevant milestones have been reached so that the new priest is prepared for the awesome job before him.

There's also the fact that in the West at least we sometimes don't have the luxury of having priests who won't have to work (out)side jobs. It has been a while since I looked it up, but a few years ago I did have the occasion to look up what the average salary of a Coptic Orthodox priest is in the USA, and to the best of my recollection what I found suggested it was about $8,000 under the median salary in the USA. That's not great, especially when you consider that we have married priests in our tradition, so they often have to provide for a family. I'm sure we would all love to be able to pay more, but like any position (secular or religious), a lot depends on where you live. If you are the priest of a big church in a wealthy part of the country, you will make more than someone who serves a smaller congregation in a more out-of-the-way locale. So sometimes a non-ministerial job is unavoidable, as we are nowhere near as rich as the more established communions that aren't made up largely of immigrants or first-/second-generation people.

 

[Tuur]

But I'm not arguing for credentialism. Just the same as you wouldn't let someone unlicensed drive a forklift, or someone unqualified conduct heart surgery, I absolutely think it is negligent to put people in positions of spiritual authority without doing what we can to make sure they're safe to be there.

Umm...I thought this was part of the ordination process. Baptist ministers undergo examination by a panel of Baptist ministers prior to ordination. The Church of God have a stricter process that involves study of doctrine.

That said, the rankest heresies I've come across in my lifetime were by a Baptist minister, then president of a then Baptist college, who had graduated from a Baptist seminary, It is one thing to change your mind about doctrine - my wife knows a former Baptist minister who became a Methodist minister - quite another to change your mind about the core beliefs of Christianity and then remain a "Christian" minister.

 

[Paidiske]

Umm...I thought this was part of the ordination process.

Depends on the church. I've known some folks in ministry who've had no real training at all.

 

[Tuur]

Depends on the church. I've known some folks in ministry who've had no real training at all.

Training, yes. In the 1970s there was a back-lash in parts of the US against seminary graduates due to some seminaries becoming theologically liberal (not to be confused with politically liberal). But not knowing sound doctrine isn't an antidote to poor doctrine.

 

[iluvatar5150]

You don't see the irony in that part of what may give pastors their power may be credentialism? At least in the Protestant denominations that aren't highly sacramental, the pastor is perceived as primarily a "bible expert", especially due to the legacy of philosophical modernism.

No, that hasn’t been my experience at all. If credentialism were the motivation, such adulation would be extended to more people from a wider array of backgrounds and belief systems. What you’re describing is more akin to a sort of cultish celebrity culture (that is extremely common in non-sacramental protestant denominations).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What is proper training for a minister, exactly? Especially given the wide variety of different Christian denominations, and how most have failed to produce a coherent and relevant sense of spirituality in modern societies? Indeed, some that require the most rigorous training have had the most spectacular failures of all.

It sounds to me you are describing something more like social work with the trappings of religion. I suppose that is one approach. I guess that's better than the pseudoscientific tea leaf reading you get in many American churches, but both in my mind are so insular and parochial they have no business dictating to wider society what is, and isn't "spiritual expertise".

Jesus had a word for the religious scholars back in his day that pretended to have an exclusive hotline to God. He called them hypocrites. We need to get back to the original sense of the term, and take religious leaders in general off the pedestals they have been placed upon.

... I'd simply say that we need to ignore those who have a merely pedestrian and glamorized form of Modern "Gnosti-fied" Christianity.

For instance, I would have little problem seeing a place like Rhema Bible Church, or the TBN channel, closed down. There's only just so many false Holy Spirit claims of authority and erroneous, eisegesis of the Bible that anyone can put up with ... or should have to put up with.

 

[FireDragon76]

... I'd simply say that we need to ignore those who have a merely pedestrian and glamorized form of Modern "Gnosti-fied" Christianity.

For instance, I would have little problem seeing a place like Rhema Bible Church, or the TBN channel, closed down. There's only just so many false Holy Spirit claims of authority and erroneous, eisegesis of the Bible that anyone can put up with ... or should have to put up with.

In one way or another, to one degree or another, many Christian denominations do that, though.

When the Rev. Lilian Daniel wrote the whopper that Mainline Protestant churches are places where the spiritual-but-not-religious crowds questions are welcomed, I basically realized there is little real difference between the Protestant Mainline and American Evangelicals, other than political orientation and superficial issues of biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. Because I can tell you, after watching my own church for several years, serious spiritual seeker's questions are going to be about as welcome as would a Baby Ruth in a punchbowl. That's not really the fault of the people there- they don't fancy themselves closed minded, that's the result of inherited religious culture. When you dig under the surface, Victorian Pietism, the religion of Feels/Vibes, is at the beating heart of American Christianity.

 

[JustaPewFiller]

Most Protestant clergy in the United States worked for 10 years or fewer in non-ministry occupations before becoming pastors, according to a recent survey from Lifeway Research.

In a report published Tuesday, Lifeway unveiled the results of a survey of 1,004 Protestant pastors conducted Aug. 29 – Sept. 20, 2023. The study had a sampling error margin of plus or minus 3.2% at the 95% confidence level.

According to the data, 58% of respondents said they spent 10 years or fewer working in a “non-ministry job” before becoming pastors, including 34% who said they spent five years or fewer and 13% who spent less than a year.

Continued below.

Most pastors lack extensive secular work experience, survey finds

Most Protestant clergy in the United States worked for 10 years or fewer in non-ministry occupations before becoming pastors, according to a recent survey from Lifeway Research

www.christianpost.com

I've met a two pastors that were in the "13% - less that 1 year in a secular job".

One was fairly high up in the denomination hierarchy when I met him. He no longer really had to interact with a congregation. The majority of his time was spent interacting with other pastors and various denomination / church officials. His lack of secular experience didn't seem to hurt him in his day to day work.

The other was the pastor of smallish church. The lack of secular experience did seem to hurt him. He had also went to a private Christian high-school. He struggled to relate to his congregation and they struggled to relate to him. That "common experience" of secular work and public school was missing.

 

[Paidiske]

"What is proper training for a minister, exactly?"

I think that's very highly context-dependant and doesn't have a one-size-fits-all answer.

"It sounds to me you are describing something more like social work with the trappings of religion."

I don't think that's what I'm doing. But let's be honest enough to acknowledge that there is a degree to which pastors/ministers/priests find themselves having to be involved in situations where some basic competency in skills which might overlap with social work is necessary.

Here's an example from the last couple of days, for me. One of my parishioners asked me to come and see him because he had a particular issue he wanted to discuss. He lives in a local retirement village, and it turns out that another resident there has made a complaint about his behaviour, but it's very difficult because he (my parishioner) simply can't recall that incident. Has no memory of it. Did it ever happen? Did it not happen? Did something happen, but not as the complainant describes? Etc.

Presenting pastoral issues raised:
- Memory loss. Medical issue? Psychological issue? (He raised the possibility of demonic involvement. Spiritual issue?)
- Conflict resolution. How is this complaint being handled by retirement village management, is my parishioner benefitting from due process, does he need an advocate or other support?
- Family situation. How are his family responding and supporting him (or not) at this time?
- Spiritual issues. Is this a spiritual attack? Where is God in this?

Further consideration, for me:
- Given the nature of the complaint, and the problem of lack of memory, do I need to consider what supports are needed to keep this person, and everyone else, safe when he attends church?

So over the last few days, I have spoken to this man, his daughter, the retirement village manager, and the church's professional standards director. I have given a medical referral, read and reflected on retirement village policies and how they have been implemented in this situation, and what the likely consequences for this person are. I have investigated family support for this person, and what supports the family have. I have offered spiritual/theological reassurance, prayed with this person, and promised ongoing pastoral support. I have offered ongoing support to his family, and to the retirement village manager, in their support of him. And I have taken advice on what needs to be in place in church.

That is a complex situation. There are many points at which something important could be missed, or something could be badly mishandled. And I'm not saying I've done it perfectly! But it would be very easy to do something that could have really negative consequences.

And before you throw someone into a situation where all manner of complex situations can arise, with no warning and you can find yourself out of your depth before you know it, you really need to make sure they have some clues.

 

[FireDragon76]

"What is proper training for a minister, exactly?"

I think that's very highly context-dependant and doesn't have a one-size-fits-all answer.

"It sounds to me you are describing something more like social work with the trappings of religion."

I don't think that's what I'm doing. But let's be honest enough to acknowledge that there is a degree to which pastors/ministers/priests find themselves having to be involved in situations where some basic competency in skills which might overlap with social work is necessary.

Here's an example from the last couple of days, for me. One of my parishioners asked me to come and see him because he had a particular issue he wanted to discuss. He lives in a local retirement village, and it turns out that another resident there has made a complaint about his behaviour, but it's very difficult because he (my parishioner) simply can't recall that incident. Has no memory of it. Did it ever happen? Did it not happen? Did something happen, but not as the complainant describes? Etc.

Pastors in the Protestant Mainline in the US are almost never so intimately involved in peoples lives.

Presenting pastoral issues raised:
- Memory loss. Medical issue? Psychological issue? (He raised the possibility of demonic involvement. Spiritual issue?)
- Conflict resolution. How is this complaint being handled by retirement village management, is my parishioner benefitting from due process, does he need an advocate or other support?
- Family situation. How are his family responding and supporting him (or not) at this time?
- Spiritual issues. Is this a spiritual attack? Where is God in this?

Demons? What is a "spiritual attack"? Perhaps only a minority in a Mainline Protestant church in the US would make that kind of leap of logic. Mundane explanations would be far more likely. Senior Citizens are just as capable as anybody else of engaging in petty backbiting and spreading false accusations.

Further consideration, for me:
- Given the nature of the complaint, and the problem of lack of memory, do I need to consider what supports are needed to keep this person, and everyone else, safe when he attends church?

Why is this even a pastor's job? And if it is a "spiritual attack", what makes clergy think they have any particular expertise in this area?

Are you familiar with the concept of spiritual bypassing? This is when people see all their problems as spiritual in nature, and they use spirituality to avoid difficult situations. Such as perhaps calling in a "helicopter pastor".

 

[Tuur]

Unless it's guidance by the Holy Spirit, I don't know how some pastors manage in difficult situation. Some don't have that sort of training. Some do well but don't call or consider themselves councilors. I'm not making light of the training, far from it, just that some have seemed to know what to say and do.

OTOH, there is one, who as far as I know was untrained in this area, who said precisely the wrong thing to a grieving father. It said something about the father's restraint that he didn't deck him.

 

[Paidiske]

Pastors in the Protestant Mainline in the US are almost never so intimately involved in peoples lives.

I find that extraordinarily difficult to believe.

Demons? What is a "spiritual attack"? Perhaps only a minority in a Mainline Protestant church in the US would make that kind of leap of logic.

I admit it was an unexpected suggestion, but I suspect he'd rather believe anything other than that perhaps he's declining into something like dementia. Demons can be exorcised; dementia, on the other hand... there's no happy ending to that story.

Why is this even a pastor's job?

Why is it a pastor's job to worry about safety in the congregation? Who else's job would it be?

And if it is a "spiritual attack", what makes clergy think they have any particular expertise in this area?

I don't. I know I don't. If I actually thought this were the explanation, I'd be making a referral to the diocesan exorcist. However, I'm pretty confident of a medical explanation, in this case.

Are you familiar with the concept of spiritual bypassing?

Yes.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In one way or another, to one degree or another, many Christian denominations do that, though.

When the Rev. Lilian Daniel wrote the whopper that Mainline Protestant churches are places where the spiritual-but-not-religious crowds questions are welcomed, I basically realized there is little real difference between the Protestant Mainline and American Evangelicals, other than political orientation and superficial issues of biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. Because I can tell you, after watching my own church for several years, serious spiritual seeker's questions are going to be about as welcome as would a Baby Ruth in a punchbowl. That's not really the fault of the people there- they don't fancy themselves closed minded, that's the result of inherited religious culture. When you dig under the surface, Victorian Pietism, the religion of Feels/Vibes, is at the beating heart of American Christianity.

Well, sure, and I think both of us are familiar enough with Richard Hofstadter's work to know why this is all too often the case.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, sure, and I think both of us are familiar enough with Richard Hofstadter's work to know why this is all too often the case.

We are? I'll have to look into him in further detail. I gather he wrote about American anti-intellectualism.

I think that's part of the picture.. but I'm really hinting at Protestants having a crypto-clericalism of their own that is often misguided or misplaced.

I find that extraordinarily difficult to believe.

I admit it was an unexpected suggestion, but I suspect he'd rather believe anything other than that perhaps he's declining into something like dementia. Demons can be exorcised; dementia, on the other hand... there's no happy ending to that story.

Why is it a pastor's job to worry about safety in the congregation? Who else's job would it be?

I don't. I know I don't. If I actually thought this were the explanation, I'd be making a referral to the diocesan exorcist. However, I'm pretty confident of a medical explanation, in this case.

Yes.

It sounds like you have to deal with alot of burdens that result from shortcomings in the rest of society and misplaced expectations about clergy. I don't mean this as a criticism of you, just the general religious culture that has grown up around the Church.

 

[Bobber]

I'm not against Bible colleges, training and credentials on paper but every once in a while there comes a person who is outside of the norm, who didn't study with the great teachers, Jn 7:15 and yet they're rocking the world with God's presence in them and upon them . They even said about Jesus he had never studied. And look also at most of his Apostles! Fishermen! Tax Collectors! To the religious leaders of the day they were considered to be a most ignorant, uniformed bunch!

The very thought that they could utter forth anything to teach the great teachers of the day was insulting! And you look at John the Baptist! Out there in the wilderness, eating grasshoppers and his garments weren't too impressive either! The professionals they were so condescending to him and they wanted to see him squashed like a bug! I think people need to be very, very careful. The moment one starts showing disdain to one who doesn't have the outward sophistication they feel they have is the point where thy can be missing God entirely!

 

[Paidiske]

It sounds like you have to deal with alot of burdens that result from shortcomings in the rest of society and misplaced expectations about clergy.

Well, in many ways I'd agree, but not because of that kind of pastoral conversation. Now if we were talking about compliance and administrative burdens... (ironically, an area of church life that my previous professional life equipped me well for).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We are? I'll have to look into him in further detail. I gather he wrote about American anti-intellectualism.

Yes, that Richard Hofstadter ...

I think that's part of the picture.. but I'm really hinting at Protestants having a crypto-clericalism of their own that is often misguided or misplaced.

By crypto-clericalism, do you mean to imply that Protestants have made the clergy too much into another form of "professionalism"?----by which I don't mean that they think they are professing the faith, but rather they see a position within the institution of the clergy as a "capitalist career choice."

Or did you have some other implication and meaning in mind with crypto-clericalism?

On the whole, though, I don't think that the OP issue is a major problem and I don't really care all that much if a clergyman or clergywoman whom I submit my ears to has worked within a secular occupation or not. I, like Hofstadter and also Os Guiness who picked upon on Hofstadter's lead, am more concerned with how discerning a clergy person is in understanding and handling the complexity of the real, lived issues and pains we all have to wade through waste deep. I don't expect the clergy to have worked as a clerk, accountant or McD's food prepper in order to gain this discernment and interpersonal sensitivity.